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Define "murder"

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Maxwell511

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The sixth commandment

You shall not murder


Seems simple enough but what does it mean to "murder". There is a lot of talk about abortion as murder and actions in war and the death penalty as not murder. So define "murder".

Murder is defined as "unlawful killing".

In Ireland abortion is actually technically murder because it is illegal. In the US the pro-life are defining it as unlawful in the God's Law sense. I think.

Killing in war in most cases is not illegal and therefore not murder. The death penalty is illegal in Ireland so that is murder, in the US it is lawful and therefore not murder.

Depends what are the laws in your area.
 
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DarkProphet

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The killing of another human being under conditions committed with malice and of aforethought,

See, now you have to define "malice". In the Bible people are stoned to death over trivial matters and full scale genocides are committed and somehow these are not considered "murder" yet I would easily say they have some level of "malice" in them.
 
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allhart

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See, now you have to define "malice". In the Bible people are stoned to death over trivial matters and full scale genocides are committed and somehow these are not considered "murder" yet I would easily say they have some level of "malice" in them.
There is a big difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Many people try to say that God changed, but He did not change. You have to look at the Bible as a whole. In the Old Testament (which was before Christ) God showed humanity how futile our struggle is. He gave laws to be followed and He demanded physical death for violations. It is obvious that we as humans cannot come up to God's standards and that was the whole point. In the New Testament God (having already shown us that we can't do it ourselves) gives us His perfect plan of salvation. Since we can't be holy on our own, and since He demands death for our sins, there was only one way out. That was for God Himself to pay our debt. He did just that through Jesus' death. God no longer demands physical death of those who sin, although sometimes our actions will cause that. He does not even require our spiritual death for our sins if we will only accept His free plan of salvation. So my point is that in the OT God used people as instruments of His judgement but we live under grace now. However, don't think God has changed, He still demands death for our sins, we just have a choice whether it will be our deaths or Christ's death for us. It is up to you
Christian teaching
you were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Ephesians 4:22-32 Ephesians 5:1-6
 
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tcampen

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See, now you have to define "malice". In the Bible people are stoned to death over trivial matters and full scale genocides are committed and somehow these are not considered "murder" yet I would easily say they have some level of "malice" in them.

"Malice" and all these other terms are defined by law, and within a legal context "murder" is quite specific. It requires a very certain intent, and varies only slightly from state to state.

But what it means within an biblical context is, obviously, up to great diversity!
 
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lilakuh

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Murder is defined as "unlawful killing". ...
Depends what are the laws in your area.

Well, I'm not quite happy with that definition. If you use "legality" as the defining factor, the killing of a woman because she was raped (since "she has committed adultery") wouldn't be considered murder in some countries, because it would be legal according to their crazy religious laws.

It really is a tough question. I would probably define it as "the premeditated taking of the life of a conscious being unless in self-defense". IMHO, laws have nothing to do with it, because laws change from place to place, whereas the value of a life doesn't.

Admittedly, I consider the death penalty to be murder. I don't consider abortion up to a certain point to be murder, because a very young fetus is not conscious. Me being a vegetarian I would even consider the taking the life of an animal to be murder, even though I know this is not a popular position to have.

Please enter rebuttals along the lines of "well, did you murder the flies that you smashed with the windshield of you car then" here. I'm aware that there is no clear line.
 
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keith99

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Well, I'm not quite happy with that definition. If you use "legality" as the defining factor, the killing of a woman because she was raped (since "she has committed adultery") wouldn't be considered murder in some countries, because it would be legal according to their crazy religious laws.

It really is a tough question. I would probably define it as "taking the life of a conscious being unless in self-defense". IMHO, laws have nothing to do with it, because laws change from place to place, whereas the value of a life doesn't.

Admittedly, I consider the death penalty to be murder. I don't consider abortion up to a certain point to be murder, because a very young fetus is not conscious. Me being a vegetarian I would even consider the taking the life of an animal to be murder, even though I know this is not a popular position to have.

Please enter rebuttals along the lines of "well, did you murder the flies that you smashed with the windshield of you car then" here. I'm aware that there is no clear line.

It is not just unpopular, it is flat out wrong unless you are using murder in a figurative sense. If each person redefines words to mean what they want them to communication ceases.
 
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Angel4Truth

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I believe the difference between kill and murder is to kill with hate in ones heart and has its root in selfishness.

Eating isnt a sin - gluttony is - gluttony isnt just overeating - its selfish - taking from someone else

Greed is selfishness - lust is selfishness - you get the picture.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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murder is illegal killing. If it's legal it's not murder. Any other definition is subjective.
Objection, your honour: even the limits of what amounts to "legal" killing and what doesn't are perfectly subjective. One culture's "murder" is another's honorary killing, vendetta, or heroic deed.
Just take the Joshuan Genocide (ahistorical as it may be): clearly, the ancient Israelites (or at least the ones who penned, read and circulated this episode) did not think it unethical to murder children, provided that they didn't belong to your own tribe.
 
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Nooj

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"Malice" and all these other terms are defined by law, and within a legal context "murder" is quite specific. It requires a very certain intent, and varies only slightly from state to state.
Do you think that soldiers who kill enemy soldiers in malice are guilty of murder?
 
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Washington

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Objection, your honour: even the limits of what amounts to "legal" killing and what doesn't are perfectly subjective. One culture's "murder" is another's honorary killing, vendetta, or heroic deed.
So what? No one is claiming the laws defining murder are universal. If an act is murder in my country but not yours then that's how it has to be regarded. I's all in the context. The context being, whose laws are you talking about. So it's not subjective at all. Merely context dependent.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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So what? No one is claiming the laws defining murder are universal. If an act is murder in my country but not yours then that's how it has to be regarded. I's all in the context. The context being, whose laws are you talking about. So it's not subjective at all. Merely context dependent.
And the context is based on the subjective norms of a specific society. "Subjective" is hardly the same as "arbitrary" - you'll find that most human beings can roughly agree on what they consider "murder", but it's not an objective assessment. Language is never objective, by virtue of its very nature.
 
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Washington

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And the context is based on the subjective norms of a specific society. "Subjective" is hardly the same as "arbitrary" - you'll find that most human beings can roughly agree on what they consider "murder", but it's not an objective assessment. Language is never objective, by virtue of its very nature.
You misunderstand. The context I speak of is not the factors that determine the nature of murder in a particular jurisdiction, but the jurisdiction itself. However, I do understand and appreciate what you're getting at.
 
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lilakuh

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It is not just unpopular, it is flat out wrong unless you are using murder in a figurative sense. If each person redefines words to mean what they want them to communication ceases.

The poster above defined murder as "unlawful killing". How is that not a redefinition of the word, considering there are different laws all over the planet?

The OP asked how we define murder. You reply by saying my definition is wrong, presumably because you have some preconceived definition that doesn't line up with mine. Do you mind sharing with us what your definition is?

You also need to enlighten me what exact measurement you use to determine whether a definition of murder is wrong (or right, for that matter).
 
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revanneosl

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'Scuse please. We're talking about an Old Testament commandment. The context involved is an Old Testament context.

The Old Testament contains lots & lots of specific provisions about what kinds of killing are allowed and what kinds of killing are not allowed.

The kinds that are not allowed In The Old Testament constitute the definition of "murder" for those who choose to translate the commandment as "thou shalt not murder".

None of it has anything to do with the Christian religion of course. The 10 commandments are part of God's covenant made with Israel at Sinai. A great and glorious covenant it is, too, and I respect it deeply. I even explored converting to Judaism at one point in my life, but the Rabbi talked me out of it.

But it's not the covenant that Christians have with God. Ours is different. Ours involves no killing whatsoever. Murder or not. Doesn't matter to us. No killing of other humans at all The End.

And, of course, neither the Jewish covenant with God, nor the Christian way of life have anything to do with what the law of the United States of America ought to be. I only say this in case you were wondering.
 
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