DeepMind's AlphaZero plays chess like a tornado in the junkyard

[Chesterton]

Thats just wrong.

It designed a way to win chess, which is pretty impressive. Not only that, but many aspects of the type of play it designed are novel and astonishing to chess experts.

You design things. Saying it designed a "way" is a very loose use of the word design. All the millions of chess moves already exist (in potentiality anyway), just as all the roads between N.Y. and Los Angeles exist. If a man chose certain routes to travel, you wouldn't say he "designed a way".

 

[Speedwell]

You design things. Saying it designed a "way" is a very loose use of the word design. All the millions of chess moves already exist (in potentiality anyway), just as all the roads between N.Y. and Los Angeles exist. If a man chose certain routes to travel, you wouldn't say he "designed a way".

Why not? All possible things exist in potentia just the same.

 

[durangodawood]

You design things. Saying it designed a "way" is a very loose use of the word design.

Ha ha. First definition in websters and look at the example they use!

Definition of design
transitive verb
1: to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : devise, contrive

• design a system for tracking inventory

...All the millions of chess moves already exist (in potentiality anyway), just as all the roads between N.Y. and Los Angeles exist. If a man chose certain routes to travel, you wouldn't say he "designed a way".

Terrible analogy. You'd have to add to the LA trip an adversary bent on misdirecting you.

 

[Nithavela]

Here I thought this would be a cool thread about machine learning, chess and the artificial intelligences of the future.

But no, it's about crevo/evo. It always is about crevo/evo. This is why I seldomly visit these forums.

 

[Strathos]

Here I thought this would be a cool thread about machine learning, chess and the artificial intelligences of the future.

But no, it's about crevo/evo. It always is about crevo/evo. This is why I seldomly visit these forums.

Well we can discuss the nuances of the Berlin Defense if you'd like.

 

[Chesterton]

Why not? All possible things exist in potentia just the same.

Ha ha. First definition in websters and look at the example they use!

Definition of design
transitive verb
1: to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : devise, contrive

• design a system for tracking inventory

I didn't say it was an incorrect use of the word, I said it was a loose usage. We all know it can be used metaphorically, but in the context of this thread where In situ is comparing the execution of algorithms with actual and design and production of living, breathing 3D spiritual beings like you and me, that's a huge stretch.

Terrible analogy. You'd have to add to the LA trip an adversary bent on misdirecting you.

I don't see how that would make any difference to the analogy.

 

[Speedwell]

...but in the context of this thread where In situ is comparing the execution of algorithms with actual and design and production of living, breathing 3D spiritual beings like you and me, that's a huge stretch.

That's not the comparison he's making. I won't attempt to explain it for him, as I have butted in enough already, but I will say that you seem to be too eager to make this into a theism v. atheism discussion.

 

[Chesterton]

That's not the comparison he's making. I won't attempt to explain it for him, as I have butted in enough already, but I will say that you seem to be too eager to make this into a theism v. atheism discussion.

Do you think the OP is a theist? I don't know actually. I suppose he could be.

 

[Speedwell]

Do you think the OP is a theist? I don't know actually. I suppose he could be.

For purposes of this discussion it doesn't matter.

 

[durangodawood]

I didn't say it was an incorrect use of the word, I said it was a loose usage. We all know it can be used metaphorically, but in the context of this thread where In situ is comparing the execution of algorithms with actual and design and production of living, breathing 3D spiritual beings like you and me, that's a huge stretch.

"Design" of a system or a process is not a metaphorical use of the word. Its a spot on dead center usage, and Websters backs me up with their choice of primary usage example.

 

[Chesterton]

For purposes of this discussion it doesn't matter.

Well, the OP also said that my saying AlphaZero couldn't and wouldn't happen naturally is invalid. I objected to his objection but he hasn't yet responded on that point.

 

[Chesterton]

"Design" of a system or a process is not a metaphorical use of the word. Its a spot on dead center usage, and Websters backs me up with their choice of primary usage example.

Well that's nice but it has little to do with the argument in this thread. You could say my pocket calculator designed an answer to 2+3.

 

[durangodawood]

I don't see how that would make any difference to the analogy.

The things the adversary can do in a dynamic fashion to the available routes of travel explode the problem beyond the capacity of pure brute force analysis.

 

[Speedwell]

Well, the OP also said that my saying AlphaZero couldn't and wouldn't happen naturally is invalid. I objected to his objection but he hasn't yet responded on that point.

What if you discovered a substantially similar algorithm working in nature?

 

[durangodawood]

Well that's nice but it has little to do with the argument in this thread. You could say my pocket calculator designed an answer to 2+3.

I dont see how solving 2+3 is in any sense comparable to designing a thing or a method.

 

[In situ]

The real difference between AZ ... is pre-existence of the algorithm (or DNA).

Which is not a difference at all. AlhpaZero is given Monte Carlo Tree Search and the rules of chess, evolution is given genetics, i.e. natural laws.

To understrand what the tornado has to do with anything, i.e. is irrelevant here, see post #140.

 

[In situ]

Well, the OP also said that my saying AlphaZero couldn't and wouldn't happen naturally is invalid. I objected to his objection but he hasn't yet responded on that point.

I been backtracking and reread earlier post to try get a consensus and I haven't been able to look over all post yet. I'll eventually find your post and read it.

 

[In situ]

Here I thought this would be a cool thread about machine learning, chess and the artificial intelligences of the future.

I posted some thought on AlphaZero which you might find interesting. Perhaps post #82, #86, #155 or #158 might be more in your taste.

 

[In situ]

in the context of this thread where In situ is comparing the execution of algorithms with actual and design and production of living, breathing 3D spiritual beings like you and me, that's a huge stretch.

So you claim they cannot be compared. Is it correctly understood your reason for this claim is that living beings are spiritual beings?

 

[In situ]

First definition in websters and look at the example they use!

Dictionary definitions are in general not suitable in a philosophical discussion.