Deeper Understanding of Atonement

[Dave L]

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

If you need to be told not to cuss, you probably do not love God as in the Two Great Commandments require of us.

 

[BobRyan]

Either we keep all the law or none of it.

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

If you need to be told not to cuss, you probably do not love God

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. You argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[Dave L]

It remains a sin to take God's name in vain. The idea that 1 Cor 7:19 does not say to Keep God's Commandments is fiction.

Getting heaven "by law keeping" is not possible - the Gospel is needed. .But Romans 6 and Romans 3 argue that the Gospel solution "establishes the LAW of God" rather than "deleting it".

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.



God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. You argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You might not be born again and love God if you need to be told not to take his name in vain. Those who are born again love God more than life itself and cannot think of doing that.

 

[BobRyan]

You might not be born again and love God if you need to be told

Your creative writing skills are impressive.

The actual Bible says that "scripture" (and not "creative writing") is to be used for doctrine. What a concept!

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here is what the Bible offers in contrast to "creative writing" -

Eph 6:2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 7:7 "for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


==============================================

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. Your argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[Dave L]

Your creative writing skills are impressive.

The actual Bible says that "scripture" (and not "creative writing") is to be used for doctrine. What a concept!

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here is what the Bible offers in contrast to "creative writing" -

Eph 6:2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 7:7 "for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


==============================================

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. Your argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

We have two laws. One applies to unbelievers (the Ten Commandments) and the other applies to believers (The Two Great Commandments). Believers fulfill the moral demands of the ten commandments in their sleep without trying. But unbelievers can never fulfill the moral demands of the Two Great Commandments.

 

[Hawkins]

Repeatedly we read that no one was justified under the Old Law, which would help the Jewish Christians in Rome better understand the huge difference between the Old Law and Christianity. The Gentiles were never under the Old Law so whatever the Old Law did not provide would not be significant to them.

Again, Jewish Christians in Rome refers only to the Jews in Paul's days, not Jews from Moses till Jesus.

 

[bling]

Animal sacrifices had to be pure, unblemished. Christ was not a sinner nor made a sinner at the cross. But God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. He "paid the debt owed" -- Col 2 our "certificate of DEBT nailed to the cross" NASB.

You say: “God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time”

You have God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent Christ, when it is never right to torture, humiliate and murder the innocent and/or allow the guilty to go free.

Is this a God you want to be like?

I understand: God allowing wicked people to crucify a willing Christ for my personal benefit (to be crucified with Christ) is sacrificial Love.


Col. 2:14 in the Young literal translation: “having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;”


Sometimes you have to go back to the original Greek with verse, I give you Young’s translation here.


It is the Old Law itself being nailed to the cross (cancelled with Christ going to the cross). The Old Law which was an impossible burden for us has been totally removed. Under the Old Law there was no peace, so it was contrary to any peace we could have.


Sin does create a debt, but the debt is not in a hand written recorded, while the Old Law was hand written out.

I am fine with that - made a sin offering, that which takes on the full payment of debt owed for my sin.

It does not say it just that way: Is. 53:5 (NIV) But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.


Yes. Jesus took the same punishment a sin deserved and should get, but that does not mean it was taken instead of us, “for” rarely takes on the meaning of instead of (because seems to be the meaning lots of time and “to the benefit of” the rest of the time.

Scripture does not say: “Christ went through the second death (went to hell for eternity)”. Christ physically died.

BobRyan said: ↑
Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.

The first verse -
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

Is 53:8 (NASB)
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

KJV
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
There are lots of verses here and I can go over each one at a time looking at all the different translations and the Greek. They each need real scrutiny. Looking at verse 6:

Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


I have to admit all of Isaiah 53 is difficult to explain, but part of that is do to the translation into the English in my study of it, but I do not know Hebrew so I cannot use the original language. Even though I avoid using commentaries for answers (and wish they were all burned, because of how they miss lead people), I do read Barnes’ notes (these were not written to be a commentary and were personal notes of Barnes). Barnes notes are free on line and deal a lot with the wording of verses. Some of what I am about to say comes from his notes, but his notes on this one verse is thousands of words.

Is. 53:4 Barnes starts out with: The general sense, as it stands in the Hebrew, is not indeed difficult. It is immediately connected in signification with the previous verse. The meaning is, that those who had despised and rejected the Messiah, had greatly erred in condemning him on account of his sufferings and humiliation. ' We turned away from him in horror and contempt. We supposed that he was suffering on account of some great sin of his own.

This comes from the first word in the verse “surely”.

“borne our griefs and carried our sorrows” does not mean took on Himself our grief and sorrow but carried it away. Grief and sorrow is not “Sin” itself, but somehow Christ is going remove our sorrow and grief caused by our sins way from us. Again there is nothing about Christ doing something for God here but this is all to help solve our problem.

The last part is easy: “…yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.” It is not saying Christ was smitten of God, but that is the way we perceived it initially.

Conclusion for Is. 53:4:

While Christ is physically and mentally lifting and carrying away our sorrow and grief, we (Jews especially at the time) saw Christ as being deserving of this huge torturous death and God doing it to him, which was a huge error on man’s part at the time and we should have been esteeming Him for what he was doing. This passage does not say: “how this all worked”, but what the results were and should have been.


Is. 53:6

First is simple and repeated in scripture so no real explanation is needed: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way;”.

Barnes and I disagree to some extent on the last half of this verse but that is because Barnes extrapolates this verse to far. We agree on this:

“The iniquity of us all”: This cannot mean that he became a sinner, or was guilty in the sight of God, for God always regarded him as an innocent being. It can only mean that he suffered as if he had been a sinner; or, that he suffered that which, if he had been a sinner, would have been a proper expression of the evil of sin.

Here again, the point we need to remember, God is not removing the “sins” like they were some object that could be carried around and off of us but is laying on Christ the inequities/result of sin (the equivalent of the deserved disciplining we need but cannot bear and live). This does not mean we the sinner do not still “deserve” the fair/just discipling for sin and we should even desire that disciplining from our parents to obtain all the benefits from being Lovingly disciplined. God is not seeing to the torture humiliation and murder of His innocent son to let the guilty to go free (that is totally unjust), but would allow and see to the torture humiliation and murder of a willing Christ in order for the deserving sinner to empathetically receive his just/fair disciplining and live (as any good parent would try to do).

=====
Fine - Christ paid our debt of sin... what debt would that be?

The second verse

Rom 6:23 - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Rev 14:10 "fire and brimstone.. torment and suffering" of that lake of fire - second death is what we owe.


Yet ALL (both saint and sinner) die the first death and Christ did not save us from dying the first death.
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Wages is what we deserve and are given to us.

Christ does not keep us from sinning to begin, so we enter a dead state, but He raises us from the dead to eternal life and concourse sin, so we do not have to sin again.

Death is talked a lot about in Ro. 6 in the context of addressing these two questions: 1. “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” and 15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace”?

The answer is NO!!! and look at all the death supporting that:

We are those who have died to sin

were baptized into his death

buried with him through baptism into death

raised from the dead through the glory of the Father

have been united with him in a death like his,

our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with

Now if we died with Christ

The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life

whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness

Those things result in death!

In Ro. 6: 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul goes on in chp. 7 with death and dying: 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Paul is saying Christians have died and from the context that would be the same as the “wages of sin” being this death. We also read “The death he died, he died to sin once for all” so that is not saying Christ picked up our pay check since we are to do the same “count yourselves dead to sin”.

If it is talking about the second death, how can we have died the second death, make it something we did and can change afterwards, and how does this death happen with baptism?

True but you are born in need of a savior - you are not "born a saint". Your sinful nature is from birth - and by definition it is a "bent" toward rebellion. You needed Christ from the start.

This verse and others do not say: “A conceived child is a sinner”, but all mature adults will sin, but do not blame Adam and Eve, who with the nature they had sinned.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" requires TWO components. Atonement is a "binary weapon" against sin. It takes BOTH the work of Christ as "Atoning Sacrifice" and the work of Christ "as High Priest" Heb 8:1-6 which He is doing now in heaven for us.

When you buy a house these days - fir you wire the money - then the closing attorney takes the funds and distributes them at closing. No closing... no distribution. No funds... no closing. You must have both.

The payment is full and complete but only Christ can apply those benefits and He does so based on interaction with man. "I STAND at the door and knock, IF anyone hears My voice AND opens the door - I will come in". Rev 3.

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" 1 John 1:9.

He provides the payment... He sets the conditions. God cannot be "gamed".

The two elements you describe are not payment and forgiveness, but payment and application?

Do you believe God forgives our sins 100% unconditionally?

If God does than there is nothing to be paid?

God was "in Christ reconciling the World to Himself" -- God is suffering on the cross - He is not getting "personal good" -- rather He is making "personal sacrifice" to rescue us.

Why does God have to make this: “personal sacrifice to rescue us”, since forgiveness and Loving discipline is all we need?

As I have been saying God’s very personal Loving sacrifice, does provide a way for me to be fairly/justly disciplined, which helps a great deal, but God’s forgiveness is ample to rescue us.

Romans 5 "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" there is nothing in it about us suffering with him to get our redemption - He does it alone.

“Christ died because of us” and this “for” is not conveying the idea of “instead of us”.

This is not the only verse on the topic, but if you had that one verse does that not drop you to your knees in pain and sorrow before accepting His Love? Would you not also experience that death blow to your heart, since you were totally undeserving “while we were yet sinners”?

God's Law requires the torture and torment of the Rev 20 lake of fire for the sinner. All sinners "owe it". In John 11 Lazarus the friend of Christ suffers a horrible death-by-slow-sickness and when Lazarus' sisters confront Christ about it - He says that "he who believes on Me shall never die". Christ totally discounts the suffering and death of the first death - no matter how horrific that suffering is -- as compared to the second death.

For God's Law to be "established" (Rom 3:31) rather than "abolished" that payment owed - must be met. And Christ fully meets the debt "owed" Col 2:14-15 "our certificate of debt" NASB nailed to the cross.

Covered above.

 

[BobRyan]

You might not be born again and love God if you need to be told

Your creative writing skills are impressive.

The actual Bible says that "scripture" (and not "creative writing") is to be used for doctrine. What a concept!

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here is what the Bible offers in contrast to "creative writing" -

Eph 6:2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 7:7 "for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


==============================================

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. Your argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

We have two laws. One applies to unbelievers (the Ten Commandments) and the other applies to believers (The Two Great Commandments).

Totally false.

1. The "Two great commandments" text comes from Matthew 22 BEFORE the cross. And this is also when Jesus said that to go to heaven you must " KEEP the Commandments " - and when asked "which ones" He quotes from THE TEN. Matthew 19. And Jesus said ALL of scripture (ALL the Law AND the prophets) are based on that solid foundation. The point remains.

2. Paul totally refutes your "no TEN Commandments" speculation in Eph 6:2 telling us that the Commandments that apply to Christians are that unit of law where "the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" is the 5th commandment "honor your father and mother". And the ONLY unit of Law where that is the case - is the TEN. A "Bible detail" that your speculation "needs" to ignore.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dave L]

Your creative writing skills are impressive.

The actual Bible says that "scripture" (and not "creative writing") is to be used for doctrine. What a concept!

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here is what the Bible offers in contrast to "creative writing" -

Eph 6:2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Rom 7:7 "for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


==============================================

And Romans 8:4-11 says that only wicked "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they" in contrast to the saints.

Paul warns the church in 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" that LAW breakers do not go to heaven.

God spoke the Ten Commandments not me. Your argument is "with the text".

More Bible - less creative writing please.

The "actual Bible" vs making stuff up.

Romans 7: 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

(Hint: for which there is no civil penalty OT or NT)

1 John 3:4 by definition in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.



Totally false.

1. The "Two great commandments" text comes from Matthew 22 BEFORE the cross. And this is also when Jesus said that to go to heaven you must " KEEP the Commandments " - and when asked "which ones" He quotes from THE TEN. Matthew 19. And Jesus said ALL of scripture (ALL the Law AND the prophets) are based on that solid foundation. The point remains.

2. Paul totally refutes your "no TEN Commandments" speculation in Eph 6:2 telling us that the Commandments that apply to Christians are that unit of law where "the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" is the 5th commandment "honor your father and mother". And the ONLY unit of Law where that is the case - is the TEN. A "Bible detail" that your speculation "needs" to ignore.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

in Christ,

Bob

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments. The New Covenant replaced them. We use the Ten Commandments for instruction and commentary in the New Covenant. But they do not serve the same purpose they once did.

 

[BobRyan]

You say: “God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time”

You have God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder of the innocent Christ, when it is never right to torture, humiliate and murder the innocent and/or allow the guilty to go free.

Is this a God you want to be like? .

I do not offer feelings - I offer the Word of God. In every case it is substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

1. God's Law requires payment of debt for sin. Rom 6:23
2. God's law is ESTABLISHED by the Gospel not deleted by it. Rom 3:31
3. God is BOTH just AND the justifier -- Romans 3.
4. God paid the debt owed.


Animal sacrifices had to be pure, unblemished. Christ was not a sinner nor made a sinner at the cross. But God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. He "paid the debt owed" -- Col 2 our "certificate of DEBT nailed to the cross" NASB.

Substitutionary atonement "Sin offering" is right there in the text you are not quoting.

==================================================


2 Cor 5 "he made him who knew no sin - to become sin for us - that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".

Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.

The death of the child is a punishment for David - and shows the nation - that even the king cannot get by with murder - thus preserving order.

Christ paid the exact amount of torment and suffering owed for each sin, for each person, in all of time. You could never do that.

Christ was born with a sinless nature - you with a sinful nature. Only Christ as God could accommodate the full load of torment and suffering owed by all sinners for all their sins in the lake of fire. His capacity for suffering - much greater than yours. His sinless nature pure - your sinful nature a blemished sacrifice - impure.

On the cross - it is God paying the debt that His own Law says is owed for sin - the death sentence -- the suffering-and-death sentence. When the penalty of the law is upheld -- the law is in full force rather than abolished.

One sin problem - One Gospel solution:
people condemned to hell both before and after the cross. The Law of God condemns all mankind as sinners in need of salvation.

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Before the cross - in Matthew 17 - both Moses and Elijah stand in glorified heavenly form - with Christ on the mount of transfiguration - fully forgiven.


BobRyan said: ↑
Isaiah 53 "He took the stripes for us - to whom the stroke was due".

He suffers the second death in our place.


The first verse -
Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

Is 53:8 (NASB)
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

KJV
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

=====
Fine - Christ paid our debt of sin... what debt would that be?

The second verse

Rom 6:23 - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Rev 14:10 "fire and brimstone.. torment and suffering" of that lake of fire - second death is what we owe.

Yet ALL (both saint and sinner) die the first death and Christ did not save us from dying the first death.
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments.

God's moral law defines what sin is - Romans 3:19-20 and Romans 7 points out that includes the TEN Commandments.

The Old Covenant in its spiritual form is 'obey and live' - obey the moral law of God -- sin not - and live
The NEW Covenant has that law - that same law -- written on heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-33 (for those who actually --read-- the New Covenant).

It is the same law in both cases -- in OC it is external - but in NC it is written on the heart.

Rom 3:19-21all who are lost today -- are lost under that "obey and live" OC model ... and it is "still a sin" for saints in the NT to take God's name in vain. All major Christian denominations agree.

Details matter.

 

[Dave L]

God's moral law defines what sin is - Romans 3:19-20 and Romans 7 points out that includes the TEN Commandments.

The Old Covenant in its spiritual form is 'obey and live' - obey the moral law of God -- sin not - and live
The NEW Covenant has that law - that same law -- written on heart and mind Jeremiah 31:31-33 (for those who actually --read-- the New Covenant).

It is the same law in both cases -- in OC it is external - but in NC it is written on the heart.

Rom 3:19-21all who are lost today -- are lost under that "obey and live" OC model ... and it is "still a sin" for saints in the NT to take God's name in vain. All major Christian denominations agree.

Details matter.

Like I said, we use it, but it is not for today as it was under the OT.

 

[bling]

In that living at the hands of the devil - is not always the most pleasant. And that is where the lost live. But they are not servants of God - they are servants of the devil - and the devil is not going to discipline them into being Christians. Life itself is hard for both saint and sinner.



No doubt. Another example of "living life delivered to you at the hands of the devil" -- so not always pleasant that is for sure.




Conviction of sin is one of the first steps for the lost on their journey to repentance and salvation.



I agree - some folks argue that since God got paid off - then you can sin all you like because the payment is made and nothing He can do about it now.

Do you believe what Job 1 seems to be showing: Satan can only do what God allows him to do?

This cruel messed up world is the very best situation to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objectives, which satan is a part of. All mature adults start out sinners and continue spiraling down to the pigsties of life, but by their own actions they are brought to their senses over time and at these moments have the opportunity to wimp out, give up and surrender.

 

[bling]

God cannot forgive nor save any lost sinner apart from the Cross of Christ!

Romans 3:25 tells us: …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

In the context of Romans Paul seems to be addressing particularly here the Jewish Christians and contrast to them, who would understand the contrast, between the way sin was handled before and after the cross. Lots of sins prior to the cross were “punished”, so Paul has to be referring to sins: repented of and forgiven by God and Jesus.

In Ro.3:25 we find “He did this to demonstrate his righteousness” which would include God’s justice being demonstrated, so it is also saying: His righteousness/justice was not being demonstrated prior to the cross, so what is not seen?

God was/is always righteous and just, but prior to the cross there was no way to fairly/justly punish/discipline rebellious disobedience without killing or banishing the sinner which would leave no one left in Israel. The Israelites would not follow through on God’s fair/just righteous rules because they were all guilty, so justice was not served and really could not be served under the Old Law. With the cross there is a fair/just way to discipline/punish the people for their sins without killing them by being crucified with Christ.

You also get with this one verse the need for the cross, which is not forgiveness but punishment of the sinner.

 

[bling]

The sin of our first parents is a poison, we are cursed with the knowledge of good and evil. It hunts us from within, it clings to our heart and soul till it drains the last drop of blood. There is no escaping death, it has us where it wants us and it's going to draw us into the grave no matter how hard we fight it. God has the only cure, in God's very nature the righteousness we desperately need is found only in Christ. Jesus took on death, to wrestle us away from death. It was impossible for death to hold him and that is what atonement was inteded for, to release us from the power of death by the power of an indestructable life. Atonement literally means, 'at one moment', that moment was when the high priest entered the holy of holies. He had incence in one hand and the blood of the lamb in the other. One mistake and he would be dragged out by a rope tied to his ankle.

The Jews, converted at Pentecost would have known the gravity of Paul describing to atonement of Christ. Everything hinged on this sacrifice, it covered the sins of an entire nation. It's no coincidence Jesus is called the Lamb in Revelations, it communicates the sacrifice that broke sins hold on the world.

Death could not hold him and sin could not entice him. God could forgive because righteousness can no be provided, by grace through faith, death must yeild. In Christ we enter the holy of holies, where our fath holds like an anchor. Our lives are vain, faulty and fragile. But now the righteousness uthat is by faith has been revealed. Bear in mind the discussion of atement in Romas 3:25 starts in the 21st verse with ''but now'. The context of the verse is informative

We can thank Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show us and them how lousy the Garden situation was for fulfilling our earthly objective. We are so much better off where we are today in this messed up world best designed to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[bling]

It was always a sin to take God's name in vain and murder - even for Gentiles.
Gentiles are specifically targeted in Isaiah 56:6-9 for Sabbath keeping even in the OT

The gentile that were in the promised land tied to the Jews were to keep the Sabbaths.

 

[bling]

Again, Jewish Christians in Rome refers only to the Jews in Paul's days, not Jews from Moses till Jesus.

Paul uses examples of prior OT Jews not only in Ro. 3 but also in Ro. 9.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Romans 3:25 tells us: …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

In the context of Romans Paul seems to be addressing particularly here the Jewish Christians and contrast to them, who would understand the contrast, between the way sin was handled before and after the cross. Lots of sins prior to the cross were “punished”, so Paul has to be referring to sins: repented of and forgiven by God and Jesus.

In Ro.3:25 we find “He did this to demonstrate his righteousness” which would include God’s justice being demonstrated, so it is also saying: His righteousness/justice was not being demonstrated prior to the cross, so what is not seen?

God was/is always righteous and just, but prior to the cross there was no way to fairly/justly punish/discipline rebellious disobedience without killing or banishing the sinner which would leave no one left in Israel. The Israelites would not follow through on God’s fair/just righteous rules because they were all guilty, so justice was not served and really could not be served under the Old Law. With the cross there is a fair/just way to discipline/punish the people for their sins without killing them by being crucified with Christ.

You also get with this one verse the need for the cross, which is not forgiveness but punishment of the sinner.

God cannot forgive a sinner apart from the Cross of christ!

 

[bling]

I do not offer feelings - I offer the Word of God. In every case it is substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

1. God's Law requires payment of debt for sin. Rom 6:23
2. God's law is ESTABLISHED by the Gospel not deleted by it. Rom 3:31
3. God is BOTH just AND the justifier -- Romans 3.
4. God paid the debt owed.


Animal sacrifices had to be pure, unblemished. Christ was not a sinner nor made a sinner at the cross. But God directed at Christ all the punishment/wrath of God against sin for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. He "paid the debt owed" -- Col 2 our "certificate of DEBT nailed to the cross" NASB.

Substitutionary atonement "Sin offering" is right there in the text you are not quoting.

Do you feel the Jews offering a “Sin offering” that was a bag of flour though the bag of flour (Lev.5) replaced them?

 

[bling]

God cannot forgive a sinner apart from the Cross of christ!

Do you feel God lacks the power or the Love to forgive sins without have Christ go to the cross?