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Deeper Understanding of Atonement

BobRyan

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If we say a judge is just, but when sentencing time comes he let's go the person who raped and killed your wife and children without punishment you would be screaming your head off calling that judge unjust and demanding justice be served.. and rightly so.

If we demand appropriate justice on earth, how much more just is a Just God than we are?

As it is written :

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD." Proverbs 17:15

This is why it took God in the flesh to make propitiation for our sins, ..

In other words, there isn't a kidnapper.. only our sin, and our Redeemer; the price was one only He could pay. .

As much as I like a lot of what you posted - that part does not make sense. The first part is spot on...


you said "If we say a judge is just, but when sentencing time comes he let's go the person who raped and killed your wife and children without punishment you would be screaming your head off calling that judge unjust and demanding justice be served.. and rightly so.

If we demand appropriate justice on earth, how much more just is a Just God than we are?"

Now that is logical.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the judge lets the murderer come back and live next door to you and when you complain about it the Judge says "oh no it is all taken care of - my son who has never done anything wrong to anyone -- was executed in the murderer's place .. so now that murderer can live next door to you and play games with your children while you are at work".

None of that would be "justice".

And that is not what God does.

For justice to be served - the crime has a high penalty and the criminal must be destroyed.

The disincentive is that the penalty is so high it is unacceptable for anyone to consider doing the crime and what is more - that criminal is never coming back.

That two-part solution is exactly what we have in the Gospel
 
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bling

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The manumission of a slave is not necessarily a commercial transaction in God's economy. When God ransomed Israel from Egypt He freed them from slavery - it wasn't transaction where a price was given, God used His power and freed His people. Simple.

Likewise when Jesus said He gave His life as a ransom (aka in redemption or to redeem) for many there is no necessity to see it as a commerical transaction. We say the life of our fallen soldiers is the "price" of our freedom, yet we don't see it as a commerical transaction, we understand the meaning.

Men (as in mankind) are in bondage to sin. God, through His son Jesus Christ, set us free from that bondage - John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

That bondage came into this fallen world due to the sin of Adam. Romans 5:12-16

ROMANS 5:15
"But the gift is not like the trespass for if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

Sin came into this world through one and so did justification/propitiation come into this world through the One.

The cost was high, but it wasn't a commercial transaction with a kidnapper.

God is entirely Just.

If we say a judge is just, but when sentencing time comes he let's go the person who raped and killed your wife and children without punishment you would be screaming your head off calling that judge unjust and demanding justice be served.. and rightly so.

If we demand appropriate justice on earth, how much more just is a Just God than we are?

As it is written :

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD." Proverbs 17:15

This is why it took God in the flesh to make propitiation for our sins, and why the Pharisees were more than just a little shocked (declared it blasphemous) when Jesus declared Himself with the authority to forgive sin. Mark 2:7

"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

In other words, there isn't a kidnapper.. only our sin, and our Redeemer; the price was one only He could pay. God is absolutely just, and absolutely merciful - and it's not an oxymoron.
Why would Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew write describe as a literal ransom scenario if there is no kidnapper?

People at that time would have been familiar with Caesar being kidnapped at age 21 and a ransom being paid for his release, so when Jesus says: …”to give his life as a ransom for many”, what did Christ communicate to them?

The nonbelieving sinner will remain in bondage unless that ransom is paid and accepted by the kidnapper.

You can not convince “sin” of anything, it cannot listen, but you can possibly convince the nonbelieving sinner to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified and if he accepts Christ; a child is set free to enter the Kingdom.

I do not know how anyone could consider “accepting Christ and Him Crucified” as a commercial transaction and that is what I am talking about?

A judge on earth has to enforce the civil Law given to him. God is the author of the Law, Judge and father of us all. We are really talking about a “just” parent:

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
 
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Hazelelponi

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Why would Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew write describe as a literal ransom scenario if there is no kidnapper?

People at that time would have been familiar with Caesar being kidnapped at age 21 and a ransom being paid for his release, so when Jesus says: …”to give his life as a ransom for many”, what did Christ communicate to them?

The nonbelieving sinner will remain in bondage unless that ransom is paid and accepted by the kidnapper.

You can not convince “sin” of anything, it cannot listen, but you can possibly convince the nonbelieving sinner to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified and if he accepts Christ; a child is set free to enter the Kingdom.

I do not know how anyone could consider “accepting Christ and Him Crucified” as a commercial transaction and that is what I am talking about?

A judge on earth has to enforce the civil Law given to him. God is the author of the Law, Judge and father of us all. We are really talking about a “just” parent:

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

You can't put your modern understanding of words onto Biblical text written with an understanding from 2000 years ago. I gave you the understanding of the word ransom or redeem: the word which is translated as ransom or redeem are the same word in original Biblical language.

The manumission of a slave (the ransom or redemption of a slave) didn't necessitate a monetary transaction even 300 years ago. It just means set free.

God has set us free, through Christ our Lord and His sacrifice on the cross - a victory that is two-fold. It is both the propitiation of our sins we committed and it is also His Spirit or seed in us which gives us power over sin that we wouldn't otherwise have without Christ's victory on the cross.

So when Jesus says we are free indeed, it is far more than only being forgiven, we have literally been freed from bondage. We are manumitted if that's a word. We are former slaves to sin who were freed, by Christ's finished work on the cross.

The cross is the price of our freedom from sin in the same way our fallen soldiers are the price for our freedom. No one was "paid", but a work was done on our behalf, one we didn't have the power to do.
 
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bling

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That is true. The man who foolishly ignores the fire in the forest and keeps walking in to it - and then is engulfed by a fire storm final at the point of death help arrives. The man needs desperate emergency rescue not "discipline".

But once rescued one assumes the horrific nature of the experience is a motive for him "not to repeat the mistake".
As you say: “The man who foolishly ignores the fire…”, so he will experience a punishment/disciplining for his bad choices.

A better analogy would be the prodigal son, who as a result of his own bad choices spiraled down to the worst situation he could have, which the father would have known would be the result and yet let him go trough this is as kind of disciplining with wonderful results.

Those 3000 in Acts 2 who realized they crucified the Messiah experienced the worst feeling they could have and live (Death blow to the heart) Acts 2:37, so there was a disciplining for them as a result of Christ crucifixion.
God was "IN Christ" on the cross - being tortured Himself. How is that "being paid off".

If a criminal tortures you are you "being paid off".
IF he makes you watch your child being tortured are you "being paid off"??

Why do you refer to God being tormented as "God getting paid"???
I am saying: “God was not paid at all!”, but other theories do have God being “paid”?

You are taking a quote in which I was trying to help a poster with the definition of Penal Substitution those are not my ideas!
 
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BobRyan

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As you say: “The man who foolishly ignores the fire…”, so he will experience a punishment/disciplining for his bad choices.

In that living at the hands of the devil - is not always the most pleasant. And that is where the lost live. But they are not servants of God - they are servants of the devil - and the devil is not going to discipline them into being Christians. Life itself is hard for both saint and sinner.

A better analogy would be the prodigal son, who as a result of his own bad choices spiraled down to the worst situation

No doubt. Another example of "living life delivered to you at the hands of the devil" -- so not always pleasant that is for sure.


Those 3000 in Acts 2 who realized they crucified the Messiah experienced the worst feeling they could have and live (Death blow to the heart) Acts 2:37

Conviction of sin is one of the first steps for the lost on their journey to repentance and salvation.

I am saying: “God was not paid at all!”, but other theories do have God being “paid”?

I agree - some folks argue that since God got paid off - then you can sin all you like because the payment is made and nothing He can do about it now.
 
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BobRyan

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You are taking a quote in which I was trying to help a poster with the definition of Penal Substitution those are not my ideas!

At its most basic point "Penal Substitution" just means that the penalty owed by me -- gets paid by someone else. "Substitutionary Atoning Sacrifice" is another term for it.

But it does not mean that someone else is "remorseful for living as an alcoholic -- instead of me" the way I would be had I lived such a life and then turned to Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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Why would Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew write describe as a literal ransom scenario if there is no kidnapper?

Eph 1: 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

A man made a miniature wooden boat - with expert skill - remarkable in every detail. Then one night that boat is stolen from the shop in the back of his house. A few years later he sees the same boat on sale at a novelty shop for $2000 and he buys it back "redeems it". He made it. Crime took it from him... He legally gets it back.

God made us. mankind chose sin in Eden. And then Christ came to redeem us from the sin, misery, slavery to sin and slavery to Satan as "god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4. And redeems us from the death sentence that the law demands (second death) - death sentence that hangs over our heads.

You can not convince “sin” of anything, it cannot listen, but you can possibly convince the nonbelieving sinner to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified and if he accepts Christ; a child is set free to enter the Kingdom.

The sinner only needs to be convicted that he is doomed... fully convinced of it - just like the cancer patient informed that he has only 6 weeks to live. At that point he becomes desperate for a solution. When the problem is that big - the urgency for the solution is all-consuming.

He does not need a complex "redemption and ransom" message where nobody is being paid but we are going to call it redemption or ransom anyway.

All of that is for yet another audience. One that is not doomed. One that is looking on and a bit skeptical as to whether this whole thing works at all. Because as far as they are concerned mankind chose Satan and his kingdom... sin is far worse than Ebola and they don't want any part of it or any part of anyone who still has it. And frankly all of "us" have sinned.

A man being rescued from a burning building does not ask to see the work record and hiring contract of each fireman that rescues him before being rescued. He simply jumps into the net.
 
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Dave L

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Do you really feel God wants our money and we can pay God off?
They lad their hands on the animal set free.
The OT Law was civil law aimed at unbelievers. But it taught spiritual truth. For the unbelievers it was a fine. To the discerning it taught substitutionary atonement.
 
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BobRyan

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The OT Law was civil law

No the OT Laws were moral, ceremonial, and civil, health, and agricultural. For example there was no civil penalty for coveting. There was no civil penalty for not allowing the land to rest every 7 years etc.

God's Law was aimed at believers in the One true God at Sinai -- and Hebrews 11 holds up those OT saints as models and examples for NT saints.

To the point that Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens

For the unbelievers it was a fine. To the discerning it taught substitutionary atonement.

There was no "fine" paid by any of the people on the Lev 16 Day of Atonement - believer or unbeliever.
 
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Dave L

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No the OT Laws were moral, ceremonial, and civil, health, and agricultural. For example there was no civil penalty for coveting. There was no civil penalty for not allowing the land to rest every 7 years etc.

God's Law was aimed at believers in the One true God at Sinai -- and Hebrews 11 holds up those OT saints as models and examples for NT saints.

To the point that Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens



There was no "fine" paid by any of the people on the Lev 16 Day of Atonement - believer or unbeliever.
The Law was purely civil for the wicked. Paul said:
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)
 
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YeshuaFan

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Penal Substitution has God seeing to the torture, humiliation and murder (punishment?) of the innocent Christ, so God can allow the guilty (all or a part of humans) to go free and not be punished. This means there is no disciplining benefits for the guilty since they are not disciplined. It makes God out to need to just take His wrath out on somebody even an innocent person. It makes God’s Love out to be to weak to forgive without first being “paid off”, it gives the appearance of God being blood thirsty, and it odes not explain how you can pay anything toward a debt which is 100% forgiven?
God is Holy, and His has divine wrath towards all things that has broken His Law and has done sinning. God did not punish Jesus on the Cross for spite, nor to have fun watching Him suffer, no, God the father poured out all of His wrath upon Jesus in order to secure real salvation for a hell bent and sinful group of persons!
 
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YeshuaFan

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That is true. The man who foolishly ignores the fire in the forest and keeps walking in to it - and then is engulfed by a fire storm final at the point of death help arrives. The man needs desperate emergency rescue not "discipline".

But once rescued one assumes the horrific nature of the experience is a motive for him "not to repeat the mistake".



God was "IN Christ" on the cross - being tortured Himself. How is that "being paid off".

If a criminal tortures you are you "being paid off".
IF he makes you watch your child being tortured are you "being paid off"??

Why do you refer to God being tormented as "God getting paid"???
I very much doubt that the Baptist Confession affirms the Sabbath though as the Sda see it as still being!
 
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YeshuaFan

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The Law was purely civil for the wicked. Paul said:
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)
The law was and is also morally pure, as it shows and reveals to us How Holy God is, and is still the standard by which we aspire to live by, NOT to get saved, but how to live after salvation!
 
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Dave L

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The law was and is also morally pure, as it shows and reveals to us How Holy God is, and is still the standard by which we aspire to live by, NOT to get saved, but how to live after salvation!
We are not under the law. It was the Old Covenant and God replaced it with the New Covenant. We have the Two Great Commandments written in our hearts that provide the true motive of love for good works. People only acted like they loved others under threat of death under the Ten Commandments.
 
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bling

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That rather remains your misunderstanding. What Paul said is about the status at Paul's days, not including all the Jews in history since Moses.

John 5:45 (NIV2011)
But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

If no one is justified, first you don't need an accuser and second no hope can be set on such an accuser.

Hebrews 8:8-9 (NIV2011)
But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.


A new covenant is made because the people of Israel (in Paul's days) cannot be faithful to the older covenant which God granted to the ancestors (in Moses' days , thus the term 'out of Egypt') of people of Israel.


In fact, each and everyone covenant is granted by the blood of Christ, including those before Jesus' crucifixion. Using today's purchasing concept, it's more like a credit card that Jesus' blood is used for even the first covenant granted through Noah. Each and every covenant possesses the power of salvation to a certain scope of humans under such a covenant. There are always the righteous being justified by a covenant. However, no one is justified under God's absolute Law which is applicable to both angels and humans (while Mosaic Law is only applicable to the Jews and converts).
Repeatedly we read that no one was justified under the Old Law, which would help the Jewish Christians in Rome better understand the huge difference between the Old Law and Christianity. The Gentiles were never under the Old Law so whatever the Old Law did not provide would not be significant to them.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Do you see that as a conditional (Cross of Christ)?
Did God ask people to forgive unconditionally prior to the cross?
God cannot forgive nor save any lost sinner apart from the Cross of Christ!
 
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YeshuaFan

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We are not under the law. It was the Old Covenant and God replaced it with the New Covenant. We have the Two Great Commandments written in our hearts that provide the true motive of love for good works. People only acted like they loved others under threat of death under the Ten Commandments.
The 2 Commandmnets summarize all 10 to us, so we are still under obligation to keep the moral aspect of the Law...
 
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