Deconversion?

[hikersong]

At the moment, to be honest, I have as much difficulty believing in pagan deities as in the Christian one... though I am still fairly sure that there must be some kind of creator behind it all. But personal intervention, from any belief system, is the part that I can no longer grasp. I miss that...

It's not an easy place to be. You like me have had a sense that there is someone who is intimately involved with your life and it's outworkings. And now it seems that is gone. For me it was like hitting the bedrock. Once I had contemplated the possibility (and it sounds like you are not going this far) that "this is it"! Well, it felt at once a very lonely place, but at the same time quite liberating. I still acknowledge the possibility of there being "something more" but I no longer try and define what or who that might be.

I'm comfortable with this place, and it no longer feels like the frightening psychological environment it used to. Life is a fantastic (if sometimes painful) reality that we are all getting a chance to experience. I sort of hope that whatever the differences of outlook and belief, that is something that we can all say "amen" to. I hope this can be an encouragement to you.

Still wishing you all the best during this time of contemplation.

 

[gratefulgrace]

I guess we will all know in the end and I don't believe that end is dependent on what we think we believe. I think we will all be very surprised.

 

[Thekla]

It seems that in the west, the word pistis (trust) has been divided into faith (an assurance which is confirmed by one's feelings) and belief (an intellectual assent).

Feelings do give us information about ourselves, and this is a gauge, but is hardly an objective confirmation. Intellectual assent is a descriptive, but is not pistis. In the east, the rational (intellect) is a tool for description.

Humans are not given to consistent states. We are never always awake, always happy, always sad, always strong, always weak, etc. We are not in a consistent state in relationships, either. There are times that the people who bring us great joy can also be experienced as exhausting.

In relationship with God, we also do not have an "always state" of experience. As a monk expressed, our journey can be described as a voyage. Sometimes, we merely spread the sails, and the Holy Spirit blows us forward. At other times, we must row.

There are times when we do not even want to row. As iterated in a hymn, "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ...". The passions surface through feelings; these are desires. The passions may even act to encourage us turn round and row in the other direction. When I am tired, 'nostalgia' experienced as desires can lead me to question the course of my life.

As a mother to six children, in times of exhaustion I say -- what if I had taken another path, had remained without children, if the only demands on myself were those I could control ? As a mother, sometimes I have to row too. As in relationship with God, my feelings can tell me things about myself, and sometimes I pull myself through intelectually/rationally - but there is a 'core' in my relationship with my children which is independant of both feelings and intellect.

To the extent that it can be described, part of that 'core' is a commitment. I have made a commitment to my children, and despite any feelings or rational arguments to the contrary, that commitment is part of what guides me through - helps me row as mother.

Likewise, with my husband. I have made a promise; sometimes that promise to him runs contrary to the feelings or desires of the moment. There are times of apparent emotional emptiness in our relationship, but there is the commitment I made - and thus I sometimes am rowing. A commitment goes to the core of self - thus it includes all of me in the commitment. Even the sacrifice of not doing what my feelings "say"; my feelings are part of what is subsumed in the commitment.

In retrospect, I have discovered that often the exhaustion and emptiness I experience with others, and in the relationships in my family, is really only the result of my selfishness, my pride. Humans get tired; we tire physically and spiritually. When I am tired, when healing or respite is needed, I then think of which desire, filled, would make me feel better. This is when pride and selfishness surface; but this is just information that healing is needed. Filling the desire will not provide the healing -- desire, pride -- these are just symptoms.

In preferring the committment to my temporal desires (which leads to self-sacrifice) I gain myself and a deeper relationship with those I sacrifice for. In self-sacrifice, I am 'deepened' and the relationship becomes deeper too. Thus eventually, the 'rowing' and the sacrifice lead to greater fullness. Preferring the commitment to desires actually addresses the symptoms, and starts the process of healing.

Perhaps it is the core - pistis - of your relationship with God that must be turned to; not faith or belief, but trust. To see if what you are experiencing is a symptom. The symptom describes the 'brokenness' of the organism. In this, to see where the brokenness is. Exhaustion - in any area of life - can give rise to the 'symptoms' of emptiness, doubt, distress. And the symptoms can surface in many areas of one's life -- even in areas unrelated to the origin of the distress.

I know we come from different Christian traditions, and I do not know if what I say makes any sense at all.

Please forgive me if what I say is useless, confusing, or an intrusion to you !

 

[hikersong]

Hi Thekla,

As a husband and father/guardian of 8 I appreciate (particularly as my wife is away for a couple of weeks) your insight into the reasons we put aside our freedoms sometimes for something deeper and longer lasting. I very much like the way you put that as far as human relationships go, though personally I don't think the same analogy works in terms of a relationship with God.

 

[Thekla]

Hi Thekla,

As a husband and father/guardian of 8 I appreciate (particularly as my wife is away for a couple of weeks) your insight into the reasons we put aside our freedoms sometimes for something deeper and longer lasting. I very much like the way you put that as far as human relationships go, though personally I don't think the same analogy works in terms of a relationship with God.

Hello, Hikersong -

actually, I think this does carry. Relationships as experienced by humans have a consistency - the "not always" condition of humans. We wax and wane. My distresses in relationship with my family are often an exposing of my weakness -- it is my selfishness or pride or desire that manifests as my feeling the relationship is sometimes exhausting or empty.

Often, my experience of emptiness is a symptom of my condition at the time. My degraded condition informs my disposition to my family. At these times, I do not want to 'give', thus I do not 'receive' from my family member/s. In not sacrificing, I do not make room to receive.

This can happen in any relationship - even with God - and is a symptom of the condition of the person.

And then also, sometimes God seems silent -- but does any true relationship always include only receiving ? It is in giving, even when we do not feel we want to, that we grow. It is in struggle that we are strengthened and can mature. This is sacrifice. And in sacrifice, we deepen and are able to receive more.


Bravo to you, Hikersong, for the work that you do !!
Best to you at the times of rowing
may they be fruitful !

 

[Chesterton]

There are times when we do not even want to row. As iterated in a hymn, "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ...". The passions surface through feelings; these are desires. The passions may even act to encourage us turn round and row in the other direction. When I am tired, 'nostalgia' experienced as desires can lead me to question the course of my life.

I don't suppose you remember that time I told you I don't listen to music anymore? (Although I do a bit nowadays.) What you said really hits home with me. Great post.

 

[Thekla]

I don't suppose you remember that time I told you I don't listen to music anymore? (Although I do a bit nowadays.)

and I still have "I wont's" and " just a bit"s

 

[Criada]

Hello, Hikersong -

actually, I think this does carry. Relationships as experienced by humans have a consistency - the "not always" condition of humans. We wax and wane. My distresses in relationship with my family are often an exposing of my weakness -- it is my selfishness or pride or desire that manifests as my feeling the relationship is sometimes exhausting or empty.

Often, my experience of emptiness is a symptom of my condition at the time. My degraded condition informs my disposition to my family. At these times, I do not want to 'give', thus I do not 'receive' from my family member/s. In not sacrificing, I do not make room to receive.

This can happen in any relationship - even with God - and is a symptom of the condition of the person.

And then also, sometimes God seems silent -- but does any true relationship always include only receiving ? It is in giving, even when we do not feel we want to, that we grow. It is in struggle that we are strengthened and can mature. This is sacrifice. And in sacrifice, we deepen and are able to receive more.


Bravo to you, Hikersong, for the work that you do !!
Best to you at the times of rowing
may they be fruitful !

I did agree with this... and I have got through those 'silent times' and, I thought, held on to God and to faith.
This though, is very different. God isn't silent, he's just... not...

And for some time I have been going on, trying to sacrifice my own feelings and desires, and to stay faithful even though I heard and felt nothing.
But, I just can't keep doing that forever...

 

[Thekla]

I did agree with this... and I have got through those 'silent times' and, I thought, held on to God and to faith.
This though, is very different. God isn't silent, he's just... not...

And for some time I have been going on, trying to sacrifice my own feelings and desires, and to stay faithful even though I heard and felt nothing.
But, I just can't keep doing that forever...

Nor will it be forever; but having experienced this before does not make the next time easier. Exhaustion in other areas of life can also manifest as symptoms in relationships where the exhaustion did not originate. So, sometimes my frustration with my children will exhibit in my relationship with my husband (in my disposition expressed as either giving/receiving or both).

As we move forward in any relationship, the deeper the relationship the deeper the sacrifice will seem to be; because we have been 'deepened' by the previous sacrifice and reception. This is why to keep going can seem harder; as we peel away the false layers of self and the passions, the deeper ones are revealed. The deeper ones are harder to 'peel', much less admit to having. But this is needful to be able to come to oneself, and thus to be in an authentic relationship -- and this includes one's relationship with oneself, and others, and God. We must be healed/authentic to have authentic/healthy relationships. And authenticity is not that which is found in the mask of desire.

 

[Criada]

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to do that.
But, if I was sure of God, I think I would be. Without him.. and I am, whatever people may think, without him at the moment, I can't.
I'm not about to throw away my principles and morals and throw myself into a life of 'sin'.. I just can't go on with trying to live for a deity who is absent, whether by my own fault or otherwise.

 

[Thekla]

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to do that.
But, if I was sure of God, I think I would be. Without him.. and I am, whatever people may think, without him at the moment, I can't.
I'm not about to throw away my principles and morals and throw myself into a life of 'sin'.. I just can't go on with trying to live for a deity who is absent, whether by my own fault or otherwise.

Well, from what you say here, you are at least rowing

To not abandon the morals, is to also 'be keeping' - this is a blessing !

Best to you, Criada !!

 

[durangodawood]

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to do that.
But, if I was sure of God, I think I would be. Without him.. and I am, whatever people may think, without him at the moment, I can't.
I'm not about to throw away my principles and morals and throw myself into a life of 'sin'.. I just can't go on with trying to live for a deity who is absent, whether by my own fault or otherwise.

As a person who has lived without belief in God, I can say there's no reason to do that.... and every reason not to.
.
Good morals support a good life.
.

 

[Dragons87]

I did agree with this... and I have got through those 'silent times' and, I thought, held on to God and to faith.
This though, is very different. God isn't silent, he's just... not...

And for some time I have been going on, trying to sacrifice my own feelings and desires, and to stay faithful even though I heard and felt nothing.
But, I just can't keep doing that forever...

Just to chirp in, when the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt, they called out to God for help. God didn't respond immediately, but He had heard their cries, and was preparing to send a rather reluctant Moses to deliver them. And even when Moses intervened, the first reaction of the Pharaoh was to oppress the Israelites even further. All in all it took an awesome display of power by God for the Pharaoh to agree to release the Israelites.

The night is darkest before dawn. Do not give up. God hears you, and He will act on His own timetable so that His glory and grace may be fully displayed to you and those around you.

 

[Secundulus]

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to do that.
But, if I was sure of God, I think I would be. Without him.. and I am, whatever people may think, without him at the moment, I can't.
I'm not about to throw away my principles and morals and throw myself into a life of 'sin'.. I just can't go on with trying to live for a deity who is absent, whether by my own fault or otherwise.

I was deconverting in 2004 because I stopped believing.

Then God spoke to me and told me he was real.

So, here I am.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Criada, don't listen to this kind of crap, it's nonsense.

Nice to see you again too, Pastor. So much for that "unconditional" love though eh?

At the moment, to be honest, I have as much difficulty believing in pagan deities as in the Christian one... though I am still fairly sure that there must be some kind of creator behind it all. But personal intervention, from any belief system, is the part that I can no longer grasp. I miss that...

No matter where you wind up in your introspection, when you're at peace, you've found the spot for you Whether it's with the christian god, the pagan gods, or no god/s...

You are a free creature...do and follow what is right for *you*

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to do that.
But, if I was sure of God, I think I would be. Without him.. and I am, whatever people may think, without him at the moment, I can't.
I'm not about to throw away my principles and morals and throw myself into a life of 'sin'.. I just can't go on with trying to live for a deity who is absent, whether by my own fault or otherwise.

No one said you had to throw away your morals, principles, or anything else sweetie...just live and breathe where you have balance and peace

 

[Zoness]

Seeking is a long journey in and of itself. I am marked as a liberal Christian but in my heart I am still truly seeking, I have been over a year. It is a very turbulent experience. I have lost a lot of faith in traditional Christianity because I see so much wrong the theology and the people certainly don't help I have considered Paganism, Reality School Taoism, Pantheism etc.

I totally believe in something...for me it would be hard to NOT believe in something but I just don't know.

Hugs for you!!!

 

[Giantsbran1227]

Read this thread in its entirety. May it help you as it helped me. Also I urge you to read "The Mountain of Silence" by Kyriacos Markides. It helped me immensely.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7342282/

 

[Lemmiwinks]

"If anyone has deconverted, or come close to doing so and come back to Christianity, can you give some reasons for your decision?"

I was abou ready to deconvert this time last year. I could never understand how a person could NOT believe in God. Suddenly, I was able to see how this could be, because it was as though all of a sudden I was seeing the world through the atheist perspective. Man I wept for days.

At this point, I feel I'm still shakey, but I think I'm beginning to trust in God again, little by little.

A few years ago I really started questioning the fall. Like, I jsut didn't feel like any of my deeds merited my spending eternity in Hell.

Now, I'm more accepting of the idea of the fall. Everyone has destructive habits, so in this sense, when the bible says that all man has sinned, I know that it is correct in that appraisal.

For me to maintain a belief in God, I need to beleive he is good, and I also have to account for suffering. The buddhists take suffering as a given, but I think christians tend to always be looking to escape from suffering. of course we shouldn't be masochistic, it is fine to want to escape suffering.

but the problem is that often suffering comes as a shock. it shouldn't come as a shock, we should be ready for it. the theology of blessings makes people unable to handle sufering i think.

I am reading 12 steps and recovery material, Brennan Manning, etc. The only Christians I'm interesting in talking to or reading nowadays are those who have been involved in recovery. They are the only ones with any humility whatsoever. I don't have the patience to talk to Christians who have no humility and just bark orders and quote scripture as a weapon.

 

[Thekla]

"If anyone has deconverted, or come close to doing so and come back to Christianity, can you give some reasons for your decision?"

I was abou ready to deconvert this time last year. I could never understand how a person could NOT believe in God. Suddenly, I was able to see how this could be, because it was as though all of a sudden I was seeing the world through the atheist perspective. Man I wept for days.

At this point, I feel I'm still shakey, but I think I'm beginning to trust in God again, little by little.

A few years ago I really started questioning the fall. Like, I jsut didn't feel like any of my deeds merited my spending eternity in Hell.

Now, I'm more accepting of the idea of the fall. Everyone has destructive habits, so in this sense, when the bible says that all man has sinned, I know that it is correct in that appraisal.

For me to maintain a belief in God, I need to beleive he is good, and I also have to account for suffering. The buddhists take suffering as a given, but I think christians tend to always be looking to escape from suffering. of course we shouldn't be masochistic, it is fine to want to escape suffering.

but the problem is that often suffering comes as a shock. it shouldn't come as a shock, we should be ready for it. the theology of blessings makes people unable to handle sufering i think.

I am reading 12 steps and recovery material, Brennan Manning, etc. The only Christians I'm interesting in talking to or reading nowadays are those who have been involved in recovery. They are the only ones with any humility whatsoever. I don't have the patience to talk to Christians who have no humility and just bark orders and quote scripture as a weapon.

As it is said, it is the wandering of Abraham -- the struggle -- that helped him to spiritually mature ...

God bless your journey +

 

[selfintercession]

The moderators went and edited this post instead of deleting it, but their edit changes the message of the post, so nevermind.