Debunking Flat Earth

[Freodin]

If you do believe in Him but disagree with Him and His ways... He will grant your wish for eternity without Him.

And if they believe in him, and believe in something that they misunderstood about him and his ways... he will grant their wish for eternity with an alternative version of him who conforms to their misunderstandings. Right?

 

[Freodin]

If I tell someone how to ride a bike, and they fall over or crash into a wall, that has nothing to do with my intent.

Why do you do that? What is the reason for you to tell someone how to ride a bike?

 

[Tom 1]

Why do you do that? What is the reason for you to tell someone how to ride a bike?

Well, if someone wanted to ride a bike I'd tell them sit on the saddle, put your feet on the peddles and push with your legs. use the handlebars to steer, use the brakes to stop - a set of instructions. I'd add the warning that it takes a while to develop the balance needed, so you don't fall off. These would be representations of real things - my intent is to represent reality. The person might misunderstand what I meant, they might try and steer with their feet, or they might ignore the warning. Neither has anything to do with my intent.

 

[Freodin]

Well, if someone wanted to ride a bike I'd tell them sit on the saddle, put your feet on the peddles and push with your legs. use the handlebars to steer, use the brakes to stop - a set of instructions. I'd add the warning that it takes a while to develop the balance needed, so you don't fall off. These would be representations of real things - my intent is to represent reality. The person might misunderstand what I meant, they might try and steer with their feet, or they might ignore the warning. Neither has anything to do with my intent.

Not how. I asked why.

Come on, it's not that difficult. There's no need to make it more complicated than it is.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Just to be clear; you are not asserting that if that statement is false that the consequence is that the statement "God intended scripture to be correctly interpreted and understood" must be true? That would clearly be falsified by the third alternative "God had no intentions in regard to the interpretation or understanding of scripture."

Yes, as I mentioned in a later post, a passive 'lack of intent' is the other face of active 'intending not', and should be every bit as disturbing as it's partner.

 

[Tom 1]

Not how. I asked why.

Come on, it's not that difficult. There's no need to make it more complicated than it is.

Lol, as an abstract argument you can simplify the issue if you like. Reality is always complicated. Why? It would depend. So that person can get around on a bike, or because they asked me to would be two options.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ok either you are thinking that a logical argument ‘makes’ something real, or says something real about something else, or something like that. Probably that comes from a misunderstanding, in this case, of how the bible represents itself, or how meaning is represented in the bible. That links back to my point about opinions - what value does expressing random notions about something you know little about have over developing an understanding of those things?

This is a discussion forum; it's a simple logical point I put here for discussion. If it had no value in that respect, we wouldn't be discussing it. Whether it has any personal or theological value is for individuals to assess for themselves.

 

[Freodin]

Lol, as an abstract argument you can simplify the issue if you like. Reality is always complicated. Why? It would depend. So that person can get around on a bike, or because they asked me to would be two options.

So you have a reason, and you have an intention that follows from that reason.

Perhaps that person wants to get around on a bike... and you want that person to get around on a bike. Your intention is to ensure that that person can get around on a bike.

Now, because reality is complicated, there is a multitude of potential outcomes. The person might learn to ride a bike. The person might crash into a wall. Some of these outcomes depend on your actions. Some do not.

And... some of these outcomes you intended. Some of them you did not.

So, this person crashes into a wall.

Did that happen because you intended it?
Or did it happen without you intending it?

It's not rocket surgery. An easy question.

 

[Tom 1]

So you have a reason, and you have an intention that follows from that reason.

Perhaps that person wants to get around on a bike... and you want that person to get around on a bike. Your intention is to ensure that that person can get around on a bike.

Now, because reality is complicated, there is a multitude of potential outcomes. The person might learn to ride a bike. The person might crash into a wall. Some of these outcomes depend on your actions. Some do not.

And... some of these outcomes you intended. Some of them you did not.

So, this person crashes into a wall.

Did that happen because you intended it?
Or did it happen without you intending it?

It's not rocket surgery. An easy question.

What bearing does my intent have on that outcome? What relation is there between the two? That seems like a simple question to me. I’m not saying that your question isn’t simple, just pointless. It has no relevance to the reality of the situation.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There have been so many "wrongs" done by people who believed or used the bible as their support for their actions.... still wrong.

What you have to understand is that ALL religions are man made. All forms of Christianity are some man or men's view or opinion on what we should do or how we should behave...

The fact that all of mankind are not perfect and everyone is capable of mistakes... thus these interpretations have errors.

Christ did not promote "religion". He said "believe in Me" .. That's it.

So, if He is real and He did do what the bible says... and there is a heaven and a hell.... then... why would a loving God make you go where you don't want to go.

If you don't believe.. and, for whatever reason, disagree with God's ways, words, and steps for salvation... Then.. why would He go against your free will and put you in a place that you don't want to be?

If you love Him, believe in Him and follow His teaching... and ask to be with Him forever.. then He will grant your wish.

If you don't believe in Him... what's the issue.. It's all talk of things as real as the "spaghetti monster".

If you do believe in Him but disagree with Him and His ways... He will grant your wish for eternity without Him.

You seem to have missed the point... I wasn't making any statement about religion in general, or my belief or lack of belief. I was making a logical point about the bible, for those who think it is the word of God.

I find it interesting that there has been no real attempt to address the apparent dilemma itself.

 

[Tom 1]

This is a discussion forum; it's a simple logical point I put here for discussion. If it had no value in that respect, we wouldn't be discussing it. Whether it has any personal or theological value is for individuals to assess for themselves.

Fair enough. The question however is a reality question - if you take God to be real, what bearing does his intent with regard to the bible have to do with how people apply it, if you take God to be imaginary you can apply the same question in an imaginary way, only taking those things to be real that you believe are, i.e the bible and how people live.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Fair enough. The question however is a reality question - if you take God to be real, what bearing does his intent with regard to the bible have to do with how people apply it, if you take God to be imaginary you can apply the same question in an imaginary way, only taking those things to be real that you believe are, i.e the bible and how people live.

I don't follow your point. If you take God to be real and believe that the bible is His word, then His intent regarding its interpretation and understanding would seem to be of both general and personal relevance or importance. If you take God to be imaginary, it becomes an academic interest in the psychology of religious belief and/or theological analysis.

 

[Tom 1]

I don't follow your point. If you take God to be real and believe that the bible is His word, then His intent regarding its interpretation and understanding would seem to be of both general and personal relevance or importance. If you take God to be imaginary, it becomes an academic interest in the psychology of religious belief and/or theological analysis.

The point, or question, is what are you saying is the relationship between how people choose or are taught to interpret the bible, and God’s intent in conveying something through the bible?

 

[Freodin]

What bearing does my intent have on that outcome? What relation is there between the two? That seems like a simple question to me. I’m not saying that your question isn’t simple, just pointless. It has no relevance to the reality of the situation.

You don't see how your intention can have an effect on an outcome?

Really?

But then again that is not the point. You either do or do not have an intention. There is no third option.

Do you understand at least that?

 

[Tom 1]

You don't see how your intention can have an effect on an outcome?

Not in this scenario, my intent to instruct has no bearing on whether or not the person follows those instructions. How I instruct them might.

If my intent is something other than to provide instructions then it could have an impact on an outcome.

 

[Tom 1]

But then again that is not the point. You either do or do not have an intention. There is no third option.

Do you understand at least that?

Uh yes, but intention by itself doesn’t ‘do’ anything. The interaction between your intent, the instructions or demonstrations given as a result and how people seeing or receiving those respond can’t be pinned down to what the original intent was or wasn’t. Non-native speakers of English in large corporations across Europe frequently pursue ‘alternative goals’ in work because of the misunderstanding of verbal instructions, and sometimes written instructions. Is it the intent of the instruction giver that is relevant here?

 

[Freodin]

Not in this scenario, my intent to instruct has no bearing on whether or not the person follows those instructions. How I instruct them might.

It still can have an influence on whether the person follows your instructions.
But the way you convey your instructions does have an influence on the outcome.

If you are precise and understanding of your student, the result is more likely to be positive. If you are vague or even wrong, the result is more likely to be negative.

Say, do you have a job? I really start to wonder how you would manage to achive any results if you don't think your intentions count for the results.

If my intent is something other than to provide instructions then it could have an impact on an outcome.

So, if you intent to instruct... your intention doesn't influence the outcome. But if you do not intent to instruct... it will influence the outcome?

Sorry, I really think you are a little confused here.

 

[Freodin]

Uh yes, but intention by itself doesn’t ‘do’ anything. The interaction between your intent, the instructions or demonstrations given as a result and how people seeing or receiving those respond can’t be pinned down to what the original intent was or wasn’t. Non-native speakers of English in large corporations across Europe frequently pursue ‘alternative goals’ in work because of the misunderstanding of verbal instructions, and sometimes written instructions. Is it the intent of the instruction giver that is relevant here?

Hah, follow that thought. You are on to something.

Of course the intention "does" something. It determines your path of action.

In your example, the intention of the instructor is clear: to have the worker achive the goal.
The result can go wrong. That doesn't change the intention of the instructor. He still wants his workers to achive the goal.

In order to fulfil his intentions, he needs to make sure, as best as he can, that the workers achive their goal.
How he does it is irrelevant right now. The point is that he does need to do it.

If he doesn't, his work will not be done. His projects will not be finished. His corporation will fail. That goes contrary to his intention.

 

[Tom 1]

So, if you intent to instruct... your intention doesn't influence the outcome. But if you do not intent to instruct... it will influence the outcome?

Sure, it’s pretty simple. If I instruct someone not to angle a plow downslope when traversing a hill with the plow raised, then my intent is to prevent an accident. The outcome is down to the person so instructed. If the person avoids doing this, they won’t flip the tractor, but, if intentionally or by accident they do, it’s possible that they will flip the tractor. My intent at the point of the other person’s action is irrelevant.

If I mistakenly pass on false information then the passing on of false information will lead to some sort of outcome, what that outcome is would depend on what the other person does with the information. My intent will make no difference to what that outcome is.

If my intent is to influence the outcome through false information, if for example I deliberately present wrong information, then there is a possibility of my intent influencing the outcome, the mitigating factor being whether or not the other person takes what I say to be true, or finds out later that it isn’t, or just feels it’s wrong or for some other reason doesn’t act on it. In that kind of situation you could say that my intent could affect the outcome.

 

[A_Thinker]

The point remains - either God intended scripture to be misinterpreted and misunderstood, or he didn't - both options are disturbing.

... or God condescends to interact with those with imperfect understanding.

This reminds me of the scene in the movie "Contact", where Ellie meets the representative of the advanced galactic civilization who sent the message to the Earth detailing how to build a machine to traverse an ancient intergalactic transportation system.

Recall all of the misunderstanding which ensued from those striving to understand the message on Earth. Recall the words of the alien to Jodie Foster's character ... "small moves, Ellie, ... small moves" ...