Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[mark kennedy]

By this, do you mean a Biblically correct sequence of end time events?
If so, I have posted this before. It was virtually ignored and dismissed out of hand.

Welcome to the club, I've tried repeatedly over the years with marginal results at best. If you got the link I'd be interested in responding to it. I really never thought the narrative of the Revelation was all that difficult. Danial on the other hand can be a little puzzling toward the end.

 

[NeedyFollower]

So a wealthy beyond measure , gluttonous , idle to the point of taking vacations while others go hungry , spending much of their free time watching/playing football or other vain shows produced by the god of this world ...thumping their chest in patriotic pride in union with those who hate Christ Jesus and despise the TRUTH ... , get " raptured up " because they believed in Jesus . OK ..makes sense to me . Please see 2nd Peter 2:2 " Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with tales they have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.…

I do not see that we the church are in any way in a state of readiness to be "raptured" . Repent ..yes ..raptured , No ..we first need humility and the ability to be wrong .

Matthew 24:45 .
Who then is thefaithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of hishousehold, to give the others their food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that servant whose master returns and finds him doing his job.…
Why was this servant " left behind "

I do not say this in judgment but observationally ..how are we different than the description of sodom in Ezekiel 16:49 ..this is the sin of your sister sodom ..arrogant , overfed and unconcerned .

Every time I hear a pretrib rapture ..it is always hand in hand with a proud verses broken spirit ..it has never brought anyone to true repentance ...I do not believe that fear of being " left behind " is true repentance nor does it work love in one's heart ...I am afraid we are teaching a doctrine that " Gets people saved " but does not make them disciples of Christ ..teaching them to obey all that He commanded them ..... And worse ...we encompass land and sea making them two-fold more the child of hell . This is the result of pre-trib . And one may heap to themselves many many teachers who teach this ...actually you may book a cruise on a cruise ship with many of these teachers ...just don't look for Christ ...He is with the poor in the kitchen serving you .

 

[SeventyOne]

So a wealthy beyond measure , gluttonous , idle to the point of taking vacations while others go hungry , spending much of their free time watching/playing football or other vain shows produced by the god of this world ...thumping their chest in patriotic pride in union with those who hate Christ Jesus and despise the TRUTH ... , get " raptured up " because they believed in Jesus . OK ..makes sense to me .

So, what you are saying is the hungry and afflicted have to stay just because there were others who were not. Seems kind of envious and heartless to me.

I'm not hungry, but I'm also not wealthy, or healthy, or idle, and I haven't had a vacation in about 7 years. I don't have cable, so I'm not watching TV. To the best of my knowledge, I've never thumped my chest, and do you know what that gets me in the rapture... nothing. But nether does being hungry or poor. It's all about relationship. Standing before God isn't measured by living conditions.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus was not a preterist, your argument for 66-70 AD fulfillment of the AOD and Great Tribulation is the very same as the full preterist. the question was asked in Matthew 24:3?

"What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world"

The entire chapter is dedicated to the "Second Advent"

Berean you deny the "Second Advent" is seen in Matthew 24:30 "They shall see the Son of Man coming"

You did it again!

You are saying that I deny that Matthew 24:30 is about the Second Coming!

I never said any such thing!

Matthew 24:30 is about the future Second Coming.


You need to read the first 3 verses of Matthew chapter 24 again.
This time try to forget what the Dispensationalists teach.

Mat 24:1　 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.　
Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.　

Mat 24:3　 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Quit trying to ignore the first question in verse 3.

.

 

[seventysevens]

But you didn't. Post the verse that says we will not be on earth during the GT.
And I HAVE posted the two verses that say God's holy people WILL be on earth then. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7. There are others that also make it clear where the Lord's faithful people are at that time and it isn't in heaven.
As for protection, the Biblical example is in Daniel 3:19-27. Then we have Isaiah 41:13 For I, the Lord your God will hold your right hand, saying: Fear not, I will help you.
And Isaiah 43:2....you will walk thru fire and not be scorched.
Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him.....you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord's anger.
The whole idea of a rapture removal to heaven is an unbiblical construct, made from assumptions and inferences, out of verses that never actually say what rapture believers surmise and is pure conjecture.
This is exactly what Paul said will happen, how people will listen to fables and dismiss the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I was going to do so but as I have told you from the beginning you do not want to cooperate , I asked you first and you did not answer , so I wait until you answer what i asked you , you only get out of it what you are willing to put into it , I asked for you to use YOUR OWN WORDS to describe in detail how you believe how you will live a day to day life while the GT is happening to share an insight on how you describe how the scenario during that time and you refuse. The only thing you want to do is attack people who believe different from you , you do not want to learn , you have not been sincere , you do not show any level of love or concern of how people view what you represent . You wonder why people ignore your posts ,, it is most obvious of why that is , you just refuse to see it

 

[seventysevens]

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.

Based on your words above, none of those pastors understood the Word of God.

You are obviously led astray , no I did not need to watch your video from your inaccurate teachings , I did not say anything about any pastors , I spoke to you that you do not have a clear understanding of the topic . Again your epic failure to understand what is said to you
You have your view ; why can't you just be happy with it and stop your attempts to do battle those who do not agree with you?

 

[seventysevens]

You are seriously and completely wrong.
1 Peter 2:9-10 makes it perfectly clear who the people of God are since Jesus came.

NOWHERE in Daniel 7:19-27 is Israel ever mentioned. It is the holy people of the Most High God, who eventually receive the Everlasting Kingdom. Daniel 7:27

NOWHERE in Revelation 13 is Israel mentioned or the 144,000. Just the 'saints' or God's people, who are told to endure until the end. Revelation 13:10

NONE of your supporting verses actually say that God will take His people to heaven.

Study who saints are , all Christians, All in the OT who dedicated their life to YHWH, and also scripture PLAINLY states that the saints come down from heaven with Jesus when he returns at his return to earth- clearly they were in heaven in order to come down with Jesus , you fail to understand that much of scripture and it would take a long time to show you scriptures that defeat your notions , as you seem to pick and choose only the scriptures that suit your agenda while ignoring scriptures that prove your statements false

 

[seventysevens]

You are seriously and completely wrong.
1 Peter 2:9-10 makes it perfectly clear who the people of God are since Jesus came.

NOWHERE in Daniel 7:19-27 is Israel ever mentioned. It is the holy people of the Most High God, who eventually receive the Everlasting Kingdom. Daniel 7:27

NOWHERE in Revelation 13 is Israel mentioned or the 144,000. Just the 'saints' or God's people, who are told to endure until the end. Revelation 13:10

NONE of your supporting verses actually say that God will take His people to heaven.

Surely it would seem that you would know that the designations of Chapters and verses were added to the texts a long long time after the scriptures were written to help find topic matter in the text , simply understand that chapter 14 states the 144,000 are Jews who are in Israel during this time period

 

[Servant232]

The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. Pro 10:30

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor precede us. Amos 9:10

The context of this verse in Amos takes place during the time of the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David, also known as Jacob's trouble, The Great Tribulation, The Dark and Cloudy Day, The Affliction, The Evil

And all those that say, we are getting raptured out of here before this happens will not be protected and shall die by the sword.

It does not pan out well for them, His people perishing for lack of knowledge. A false hope.

But we are not like those that have no hope, YESHUA will bring them back with Him, and they will be resurrected first, and then those that are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet Him in the air when He returns the second time to reign and rule from Jerusalem.

144,000 Deliverers

And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of esau; and the Kingdom shall be YHWH's. Obadiah 1:21 - Revelation 11:15

Plural ~ saviours

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's Name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1


And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the Glory shall be a defence. Isaiah 4:5

Plural ~ assemblies


When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall Appear in His Glory. Psa 102:16

Looking for that blessed hope, and the Glorious Appearing of the Great God and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach; Titus 2:13



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him (Jacob) marvellous things. Micah 7:15

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:6 - Revelation 3:10

~~~

Jeremiah 23

1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! saith YHWH.

2
Therefore thus saith YHWH ELOHIM of Israel against the pastors that feed My people; Ye have scattered My flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith YHWH.

3
And I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4
And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith YHWH.

5
Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6
In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His Name whereby He shall be called, YaHuWaH our Righteousness.

7
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that they shall no more say, YHWH Liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8
But, YHWH Liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.


Remember Lot's wife

When it was time to go, she hesitated, looked back

Not a choice anyone will have to make if they are raptured

When the pre-tribulation rapture does not happen, will that make all that teach it, false prophets?

The Pastors that have destroyed and scattered the sheep.

 

[Truth7t7]

You did it again!

You are saying that I deny that Matthew 24:30 is about the Second Coming!

I never said such thing!

Matthew 24:30 is about the future Second Coming.


You need to read the first 3 verses of Matthew chapter 24 again.
This time try to forget what the Dispensationalists teach.

Mat 24:1　 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.　
Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.　

Mat 24:3　 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Quit trying to ignore the first question in verse 3.

.

Apologize again, your not the typical (partial preterist)

How do you account for the words in verse 24:29 " immediately after the tribulation of "Those Days"

You believe in a 66-70AD tribulation, and a future second coming?

Immediately doesn't allow for a 2,000 year gap?

preterism uses symbolic allegory to make their system work, do you do the same?

 

[seventysevens]

144,000 Deliverers

And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of esau; and the Kingdom shall be YHWH's. Obadiah 1:21 - Revelation 11:15

Plural ~ saviours

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's Name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1


And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the Glory shall be a defence. Isaiah 4:5

Plural ~ assemblies


When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall Appear in His Glory. Psa 102:16

Looking for that blessed hope, and the Glorious Appearing of the Great God and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach; Titus 2:13



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him (Jacob) marvellous things. Micah 7:15

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:6 - Revelation 3:10

~~~

Jeremiah 23

1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! saith YHWH.

2
Therefore thus saith YHWH ELOHIM of Israel against the pastors that feed My people; Ye have scattered My flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith YHWH.

3
And I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4
And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith YHWH.

5
Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6
In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His Name whereby He shall be called, YaHuWaH our Righteousness.

7
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that they shall no more say, YHWH Liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8
But, YHWH Liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.


Remember Lot's wife

When it was time to go, she hesitated, looked back

Not a choice anyone will have to make if they are raptured

When the pre-tribulation rapture does not happen, will that make all that teach it, false prophets?

The Pastors that have destroyed and scattered the sheep.

In today's world 90% of pastors in America have chosen to stop talking about the rapture as the continual rise of the outbreak of harassment of the post tribbers vs. pre tribbers and those who disagree with their view . The very same thing that happens in forums started to happen live in church services so pastors decided to shut it down by refusing to teach on it or talk about it.

That shows that the topic of the rapture does not cause any to be scattered , but there is rampant other false teachings , focused desires to get church goers to give & give more money via deceptive teachings to get the wallets to open up, permitting adultery , fornication , gay/lesbian teaching and acceptance amid other carnal things that goes against what the Lord has commanded of his shepards
If the pre trib rapture does not happen then it's just life goes on , like a weather forecast calls for snow falling and if the snow does not fall there is no bad consequence to people as a result it simply means there is no snow falling

 

[Truth7t7]

I

In today's world 90% of pastors in America have chosen to stop talking about the rapture as the continual rise of the outbreak of harassment of the post tribbers vs. pre tribbers and those who disagree with their view . The very same thing that happens in forums started to happen live in church services so pastors decided to shut it down by refusing to teach on it or talk about it.

That shows that the topic of the rapture does not cause any to be scattered , but there is rampant other false teachings , focused desires to get church goers to give & give more money via deceptive teachings to get the wallets to open up, permitting adultery , fornication , gay/lesbian teaching and acceptance amid other carnal things that goes against what the Lord has commanded of his shepards
If the pre trib rapture does not happen then it's just life goes on , like a weather forecast calls for snow falling and if the snow does not fall there is no bad consequence to people as a result it simply means there is no snow falling

I believe its a Pastors duty to equip/prepare the church for the truth of seeing a future antichrist and great tribulation.
Preterism and dispensationalism have one thing in common, they both falsely teach the Church will not go through a future tribulation.

 

[SeventyOne]

I

I believe its a Pastors duty to equip/prepare the church for the truth of seeing a future antichrist and great tribulation.
Preterism and dispensationalism have one thing in common, they both falsely teach the Church will not go through a future tribulation.

When scripture plainly shows the dead are raised and his people are hidden prior to His wrath being poured on the earth, then I know you claim of 'false' is false'

 

[keras]

Study who saints are , all Christians, All in the OT who dedicated their life to YHWH, and also scripture PLAINLY states that the saints come down from heaven with Jesus when he returns at his return to earth-

Matthew 16:27...the Son of Man shall Return in glory with His angels..... Revelation 19:14 says; the armies of heaven accompany Jesus
You are refuted. Jesus only brings the souls of the martyrs with Him.

What is plain, is the Words of Jesus: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
It's time to recognize the rapture to heaven theory for the lie that it is. Sticking to that deception, is a bad mistake and leaves you in the dark about the truth of God's plans for His people.

 

[BABerean2]

How do you account for the words in verse 24:29 " immediately after the tribulation of "Those Days"

There is a clear timeline in Luke's Gospel, but the timeline in Matthew's Gospel is not as clear.
Matthew 24:29 lies in the unclear area of the text, when compared to Luke's Gospel.

I take Matthew 24:29 as a part of Christ's Second Coming.
Others take it as part of 70 AD. I would not condemn others for that viewpoint.

There is no doubt that there was terrible tribulation in 70 AD.
Mother's ate their own children.


Luk 23:26　 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.　

Luk 23:27　 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.　

Luk 23:28　 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.　

Luk 23:29　 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.　

Luk 23:30　 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.　

Luk 23:31　 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?　



It is my belief that a world government will be established in the future and there will be a tremendous period of persecution and tribulation lasting about 3 1/2 years, before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

 

[BABerean2]

his people are hidden prior to His wrath being poured on the earth,

Yes.
Here it is at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　(How long is "forever"?)


Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you see a future literal man as the Antichrist?

When scripture plainly shows the dead are raised and his people are hidden prior to His wrath being poured on the earth, then I know you claim of 'false' is false'

John N. Darby's pre-trib rapture isn't found in the Holy Scripture, a fairy tale!

 

[Quasar92]

You are seriously and completely wrong.
1 Peter 2:9-10 makes it perfectly clear who the people of God are since Jesus came.

NOWHERE in Daniel 7:19-27 is Israel ever mentioned. It is the holy people of the Most High God, who eventually receive the Everlasting Kingdom. Daniel 7:27

NOWHERE in Revelation 13 is Israel mentioned or the 144,000. Just the 'saints' or God's people, who are told to endure until the end. Revelation 13:10

NONE of your supporting verses actually say that God will take His people to heaven.

What does the Bible say about the Israelite prophet, Daniel? His works are in the Hebrew Scriptures as one of their major prophets, that comes to our English Bibles through the Greek Septuagint. His works were all originally addressed to Israel, whom he need not repeat again, in Chapter 7, having done so in Chapter one.

The verse you first mentioned in your post #233,, Dan.7:25 is about the Antichrist, the fourth beast Daniel asked the angel to interpret for him. And what does the Antichrist do to Israel?! He will shut down their sacrificing system and set up an abomination of desolation in their temple.

Daniel’s Training in Babylon

Dan.1:1 "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his god in Babyloniaa and put in the treasure house of his god.

3Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring into the king’s service some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility— 4young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king’s palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians.b 5The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king’s table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king’s service.

6Among those who were chosen were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 7The chief official gave them new names: to Daniel, the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego."

What I posted was not an attempt to interpret the prophecy in either Daniel 7 or in Rev.13:7. But rather, to identify who they were being addressed to. As such, there is nothing wrong about what I posted in any way.


Quasar92

 

[keras]

What I posted was not an attempt to interpret the prophecy in either Daniel 7 or in Rev.13:7. But rather, to identify who they were being addressed to. As such, there is nothing wrong about what I posted in any way.

So you have made an arbitrary decision that most, if not all, Bible prophecy has no relevance to us Christians. Its all about that tiny nation that currently occupies a small part of the holy Land.

That this idea is totally erroneous is proved by how 'Israel', who are now the righteous faithful people of God, all born again Christians; are the people who have become as many as the sands of the sea.
The Promises of God to His people apply to those who love Him and keep His Laws. NOT to any other people, however much they and you think they might.

Of course we all know why you must promote the redemption of Jewish Israel. The whole 'rapture to heaven' construct falls apart without that doctrine. Sadly for you, the Bible prophets are quite clear: only a remnant of Judah will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:4, Zechariah 13:8-9, Matthew 21:41-43, Romans 9:27

 

[Biblewriter]

You got the first sentence correct.

At one time Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together in the early Plymouth Brethren movement. After Darby accepted the Secret Rapture doctrine of the Irvingites, Newton would not accept the new doctrine. Darby then launched a personal attack upon Newton.
That same spirit is alive and well today on this forum.

.

This is willful deception. I have studied the Darby-Newton split in great detail. And it was not over doctrines concerning prophecy. It was over doctrines about how the church should be organized and operated.

You love the claim that Darby got this idea from Newton. But this has never been proved. You have correctly pointed out that Darby is known to have read Newton's magazine. But you have chosen to simply ignore the proof I posted that Lewis Way published the same doctrines before either Newton or Darby wrote anything. You chose to ignore this because it did not fit the claims you want to push abut the origins of the doctrine.