Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[Quasar92]

So you have made an arbitrary decision that most, if not all, Bible prophecy has no relevance to us Christians. Its all about that tiny nation that currently occupies a small part of the holy Land.

That this idea is totally erroneous is proved by how 'Israel', who are now the righteous faithful people of God, all born again Christians; are the people who have become as many as the sands of the sea.
The Promises of God to His people apply to those who love Him and keep His Laws. NOT to any other people, however much they and you think they might.

Of course we all know why you must promote the redemption of Jewish Israel. The whole 'rapture to heaven' construct falls apart without that doctrine. Sadly for you, the Bible prophets are quite clear: only a remnant of Judah will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 21:4, Zechariah 13:8-9, Matthew 21:41-43, Romans 9:27

You win the cigar for sliding in with the production of opinionated fiction. Take the following as a case and point, and firld a Scripturally based argument proving any part of it is false, to prove your position about it:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

This is willful deception. I have studied the Darby-Newton split in great detail. And it was not over doctrines concerning prophecy. It was over doctrines about how the church should be organized and operated.

You love the claim that Darby got this idea from Newton. But this has never been proved. You have correctly pointed out that Darby is known to have read Newton's magazine. But you have chosen to simply ignore the proof I posted that Lewis Way published the same doctrines before either Newton or Darby wrote anything. You chose to ignore this because it did not fit the claims you want to push abut the origins of the doctrine.

I believe you meant Irving, instead of Newton.

My source is Brethren Historian F.R. Coad, who wrote the following paper during the 1960's.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


As one of the most ardent Darby apologists now living, your viewpoint cannot be viewed as being without bias.

Based on what you provided about Lewis Way, he never claimed that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

You may want to be very careful in using the term "willful deception".
When you point 1 finger at others, several other fingers are pointing back at you.

.

 

[seventysevens]

I

I believe its a Pastors duty to equip/prepare the church for the truth of seeing a future antichrist and great tribulation.
Preterism and dispensationalism have one thing in common, they both falsely teach the Church will not go through a future tribulation.

I agree that a pastors duty is to equip/prepare the church for the truth of seeing a future antichrist and great tribulation. Problem is most do not in today's modern church congregations
I completely disregard Preterism as it is easy to prove false, I do not waste energy on dispensationalism , I have seen the word in scripture but see no relevance in being on either side of the fence on this as it is just one more thing that people want to focus their attention on that is what someone who did not live in biblical times interprets things in their own view.
Every time someone says a born again believer that became born again Before the GT will go through the GT I ask for scripture that clearly states that a person who is a born again believer BEFORE the GT begins will go through it , no one can provide any scripture that states that simply because the Word of God does not teach that .
Some people simply cannot accept or fathom the idea that you can be sitting in a room talking with someone and that someone could simply vanish into thin air and disappear instantly so they make fun of it saying stupid comments like people will fly away .
Guess what scripture clearly offers proof that is exactly what happens during a harpazo
Acts 8 ..read it Phillip simply vanished into thin air instantly right in front of the eyes of the eunuch ... now the focus is on when does the body of believers get raptured
In order to get a accurate truth you have to study all of scripture to make sure it fits with all of scripture. Post tribbers only use a select few scriptures to support their doctrine and refuse to accept the fact that there are many more scriptures that speak of the rapture than they will accept simply cause they cannot not see/refuse to see all that God has shown
The rapture happens so fast that the human eye cannot see where the person went ,instantly gone , no long period of time for the eyes to see it happen but when Jesus returns it is a long duration of time permitting every eye on earth to watch him coming down to earth

 

[seventysevens]

Matthew 16:27...the Son of Man shall Return in glory with His angels..... Revelation 19:14 says; the armies of heaven accompany Jesus
You are refuted. Jesus only brings the souls of the martyrs with Him.

What is plain, is the Words of Jesus: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13
It's time to recognize the rapture to heaven theory for the lie that it is. Sticking to that deception, is a bad mistake and leaves you in the dark about the truth of God's plans for His people.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, Then shall YOU ALSO APPEAR WITH HIM in GLORY

It is you that is refuted
The armies of heaven are the combined forces of all the saints that are in heaven right this minute and the angels , to think that people who are with Christ right now in heaven will not come with Christ at his return is just total nonsense
if you actually studied the topic in depth you would know these things , it is obvious that you prefer to just skim the surface , you need to study first fruits more deeply than just saying that Jesus is first fruits as there is much more to it than that . Ever grow tomatoes? when there are red ripe tomatoes you harvest the ones that are ripe and wait for the others to ripen and come back again when they are ready to be harvested.
People now who have dedicated their lives serving Christ will be harvested before the GT, after the GT has begun if a person realizes/understands what has happened they turn to the Lord ask for forgiveness and repent of their sins and they will have to suffer through the GT and IF they remain true to the Lord Jesus through this severely harsh time they will be welcomed into the presence of the Kingdom at the time Jesus returns to earth to establish His Kingdom. These are the martyrs who endured to the end , these are the ones who are facing the worst time on earth that has ever been and they could make their lives much easier by accepting the mark 666 but give up eternal life with Christ when they accept it. Christ tells them that if they can hang tough and endure till he comes back they will be welcomed into the Kingdom.

The bogus nonsense of all the foolish attacking pre-trib brothers in Christ because they understand things you are unwilling to study is simply against Christ command to love one another , when the time comes when you face Christ and give an account for your life ; be assured he will ask you why you chose to attack your brother with your words and why you were not willing to carry on a discussion without attacking your brothers
If post tribbers would stop spending too much time on what other writers who express their opinion on scripture and focus that energy on the scripture they would learn far more valuable understanding
You simply choose to ignore all scripture that does not fit the box that you post tribbers have made up

 

[NeedyFollower]

So, what you are saying is the hungry and afflicted have to stay just because there were others who were not. Seems kind of envious and heartless to me.

I'm not hungry, but I'm also not wealthy, or healthy, or idle, and I haven't had a vacation in about 7 years. I don't have cable, so I'm not watching TV. To the best of my knowledge, I've never thumped my chest, and do you know what that gets me in the rapture... nothing. But nether does being hungry or poor. It's all about relationship. Standing before God isn't measured by living conditions.

Hi brother ..No , I was using hyperbole and wrote what I did in the wrong "spirit" . It was based on encounters which I have had with pre-trib rapturist . I live in the south where" southern -pride , God , Guns and Glory " is an ever present reality in many of the pre-trib rapture believing churches ..mostly southern baptist. I was attempting to make the point that " believing in Jesus " should work humility, thankfulness, love, meekness and concern ..not the demeanor I have encountered in sermons on pre-trib rapture and left behind scenarios . I do not believe in a left behind scenario though I understand the quilt of scriptures pieced together to arrive at this understanding .
Quite frankly none of us knows anything though we believe many things . I even wonder at the value of even debating the unknown . Is it conforming me to His image ? It is about relationship ..for Jesus says , my sheep hear my voice and they follow me ..a stranger they will not follow . It is also about fruit ..Good fruit . What does our "belief " produce ? Debates , strife and envy ? It is not lost on me that those who professed belief in the doctrines of the Trinity , the Lordship of Jesus and may other sound things , often persecuted and killed one another...often with the sword and fire and minimally with words . Even some of the great theologians like Luther , Calvin and others . Being wrong can only work humility and the chance to understand more . Pride keeps that from happening . ( And this was not directed towards you ..this is true of me and all of us . ) Grace and peace in the name of Jesus my and your Lord ..and all who call on His name .

 

[Truth7t7]

You win the cigar for sliding in with the production of opinionated fiction. Take the following as a case and point, and firld a Scripturally based argument proving any part of it is false, to prove your position about it:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

There is no pre-trib rapture in the scripture you present, your teaching misrepresents the "Second Advent"

 

[Truth7t7]

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, Then shall YOU ALSO APPEAR WITH HIM in GLORY

It is you that is refut armies of heaven are the combined forces of all the saints that are in heaven right this minute and the angels , to think that people who are with Christ right now in heaven will not come with Christ at his return is just total nonsense
if you actually studied the topic in depth you would know these things , it is obvious that you prefer to just skim the surface , you need to study first fruits more deeply than just saying that Jesus is first fruits as there is much more to it than that . Ever grow tomatoes? when there are red ripe tomatoes you harvest the ones that are ripe and wait for the others to ripen and come back again when they are ready to be harvested.
People now who have dedicated their lives serving Christ will be harvested before the GT, after the GT has begun if a person realizes/understands what has happened they turn to the Lord ask for forgiveness and repent of their sins and they will have to suffer through the GT and IF they remain true to the Lord Jesus through this severely harsh time they will be welcomed into the presence of the Kingdom at the time Jesus returns to earth to establish His Kingdom. These are the martyrs who endured to the end , these are the ones who are facing the worst time on earth that has ever been and they could make their lives much easier by accepting the mark 666 but give up eternal life with Christ when they accept it. Christ tells them that if they can hang tough and endure till he comes back they will be welcomed into the Kingdom.

The bogus nonsense of all the foolish attacking pre-trib brothers in Christ because they understand things you are unwilling to study is simply against Christ command to love one another , when the time comes when you face Christ and give an account for your life ; be assured he will ask you why you chose to attack your brother with your words and why you were not willing to carry on a discussion without attacking your brothers
If post tribbers would stop spending too much time on what other writers who express their opinion on scripture and focus that energy on the scripture they would learn far more valuable understanding
You simply choose to ignore all scripture that does not fit the box that you post tribbers have made up

I disagree, your analogy on tomatoes does not prove your position.
The pre-trib rapture was invented by John N. Darby 1830's and promoted by the C.I. Scofield reference bible 1909.
A pre-tri rapture isn't found in the scripture, as Darby and his followers "Misrepresent The Second Advent" to create the pre-trib rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree that a pastors duty is to equip/prepare the church for the truth of seeing a future antichrist and great tribulation. Problem is most do not in today's modern church congregations
I completely disregard Preterism as it is easy to prove false, I do not waste energy on dispensationalism , I have seen the word in scripture but see no relevance in being on either side of the fence on this as it is just one more thing that people want to focus their attention on that is what someone who did not live in biblical times interprets things in their own view.
Every time someone says a born again believer that became born again Before the GT will go through the GT I ask for scripture that clearly states that a person who is a born again believer BEFORE the GT begins will go through it , no one can provide any scripture that states that simply because the Word of God does not teach that .
Some people simply cannot accept or fathom the idea that you can be sitting in a room talking with someone and that someone could simply vanish into thin air and disappear instantly so they make fun of it saying stupid comments like people will fly away .
Guess what scripture clearly offers proof that is exactly what happens during a harpazo
Acts 8 ..read it Phillip simply vanished into thin air instantly right in front of the eyes of the eunuch ... now the focus is on when does the body of believers get raptured
In order to get a accurate truth you have to study all of scripture to make sure it fits with all of scripture. Post tribbers only use a select few scriptures to support their doctrine and refuse to accept the fact that there are many more scriptures that speak of the rapture than they will accept simply cause they cannot not see/refuse to see all that God has shown
The rapture happens so fast that the human eye cannot see where the person went ,instantly gone , no long period of time for the eyes to see it happen but when Jesus returns it is a long duration of time permitting every eye on earth to watch him coming down to earth

A pre-trib rapture is not found in the scripture, those that claim such misrepresent the "Second Advent" to create this teaching.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ple

When scripture plainly shows the dead are raised and his people are hidden prior to His wrath being poured on the earth, then I know you claim of 'false' is false'

aPlease post scripture to support your claims?

 

[keras]

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, Then shall YOU ALSO APPEAR WITH HIM in GLORY

It is you that is refuted
The armies of heaven are the combined forces of all the saints that are in heaven right this minute and the angels , to think that people who are with Christ right now in heaven will not come with Christ at his return is just total nonsense

Colossians 3:3-4 You died [spiritually] and now your like is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ is revealed, [when He Returns] then you too will be revealed with Him in glory.
This does not say we will Return with Him, just the righteous, faithful Christians who remain, will be with Him, when He Returns. As Matthew 24:31 says.

Your dismissal of scriptures like Matthew 16:27 and mis-interpretations of Words as above, shows the depth of deception you rapture to heaven believers are in.
What IS total nonsense, is your 'Star Wars' dream of riding a white horse and waving a sword at the Return of Jesus.

No person is in heaven with Christ now. Heaven is a place that we humans cannot go to. John 7:34, John 8:21-23, Proverbs 10:30 All the dead 'sleep' until the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[keras]

You win the cigar for sliding in with the production of opinionated fiction. Take the following as a case and point, and firld a Scripturally based argument proving any part of it is false, to prove your position about it:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

Ok, I will. Mowing the lawn can wait!
Paul prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is 'crystal clearly' about the actual Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Thinking it is describing an earlier 'coming', is not what it means. The faithful Christians who remain, having passed thru the Great Tribulation, Revelation 13:10, will rise to meet Jesus in the clouds. That is: in the earths atmosphere. Exactly as shown in Matthew 24:31.
And so we will be with the Lord forever. On earth, reigning with Him, Revelation 5:9-10, and eventually God and therefore heaven, will be on earth too. Revelation 21:1-7

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

Accompanied by His angel army. Proved by Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14. That's all, the fanciful dream of humans being in that army, is total fiction.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

Wrong. Matthew 24:30-31 describes the Return very well: All the peoples of the earth will see Him coming....He will send His angels to gather His chosen from all the places of the world.
Plainly, we are on the earth, we see Him coming, we are gathered to Him by the angels and we live with Him on earth. Revelation 5:9-10

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

The Marriage is described in Revelation 19:5-10, immediately prior to the Return, Revelation 11:21, NOT seven years before the Return. Actually verse 7 just says the Bride is ready and it seems that the actual Wedding and Supper will take place soon after Jesus has arrived and disposed of the Anti-Christ.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

No human returns to heaven because no one ever goes to heaven. John 3:13
The restored Kingdom, is not a Jewish one, but will be the Israel of God, every faithful believer, of every ethnicity and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Colossians 1:10-12
The heavens and earth were made to last forever. They will be renovated and restored to the original.

Quasar, you are a Christian brother, but your determination to promote false teachings, is a serious matter. You may not wish to change your beliefs, or even be able to, but you should cease actively pushing theories and ideas that don't have genuine Scriptural support. Remember James 3:1 We who teach will be judged more severely.

 

[SeventyOne]

Ple

aPlease post scripture to support your claims?

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.
For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

 

[seventysevens]

I disagree, your analogy on tomatoes does not prove your position.
The pre-trib rapture was invented by John N. Darby 1830's and promoted by the C.I. Scofield reference bible 1909.
A pre-tri rapture isn't found in the scripture, as Darby and his followers "Misrepresent The Second Advent" to create the pre-trib rapture.

The analogy is an illustration of truth that can be proven , but you nor any post tribber will put forth the effort to study thoroughly enough to learn it as you would simply dismiss anything that does not fit in the man made squeeze box doctrine you have .
Your problem is that you are not willing to explore areas you have not explored to learn new truth that you have not yet learned. You may disagree but that in no way indicates what you prefer to believe has any merit

Your mindset is very very much like a very well known publisher who hated hearing the name of Jesus ,he was a very devout outspoken atheist and could not stand hearing Christians speaking about Jesus. His disdain and bitterness toward Christians speaking of Christ was a cup boiling over.

He decided that he was going to go all out to prove Christians to be following a foolish teaching and was intending to be seen by the world as the man who proved to the world that Jesus did not exist and all the stories of him were fairy tales. He unlike you was willing to put forth the time and energy to seek the proof he was looking for. He spent thousands of hours pouring over every writings he could find day after day week after week month after month for like a few years , I'd have to look up the exact number of years as I think it was 2-4 . After doing the studies the result is that he not only realized how wrong HE had been and that Jesus is everything he claims to be and all that is written of Jesus is absolutely provably true .

He is now very prominent born again Christian devoting his life to spreading the Good News of Jesus the Christ writing and publishing books and making documentaries of God in the flesh Yeshua the Christ .

If you would only be willing to open your heart and mind and seek to prove what you say to be true you then would discover just how wrong you are and come to know was is true , but as long you remain stiffnecked and refuse to study outside the limited box you have created you'll remain in the fog believing something that zero support in scripture as 100% of what you believe is assumption
Scripture that speaks of the rapture has no mention of a second coming of Christ
Scripture that speaks of the second coming of Christ has no mention of the rapture
The rapture happens in a split second start to finish the second coming lasts a long time to allow every eye on earth to see it happen
your view has no scripture support which is why you have to insert assumptions to make even the flimsiest of a case for it
You should be willing to say things like ....lets explore this together as you want to study and learn .....
no you won't because you think you know it all already --

 

[seventysevens]

A pre-trib rapture is not found in the scripture, those that claim such misrepresent the "Second Advent" to create this teaching.

So you enjoy making claims that you cannot prove to have merit or any level of truth , since you have no true knowledge on the topic , you always defer to someone else s teaching so when you are wrong you can say it wasn't you that is wrong ,,,but you are wrong.

The analogy is an illustration of truth that can be proven , but you nor any post tribber will put forth the effort to study thoroughly enough to learn it as you would simply dismiss anything that does not fit in the man made squeeze box doctrine you have .
Your problem is that you are not willing to explore areas you have not explored to learn new truth that you have not yet learned. You may disagree but that in no way indicates what you prefer to believe has any merit

Your mindset is very very much like a very well known publisher who hated hearing the name of Jesus ,he was a very devout outspoken atheist and could not stand hearing Christians speaking about Jesus. His disdain and bitterness toward Christians speaking of Christ was a cup boiling over.

He decided that he was going to go all out to prove Christians to be following a foolish teaching and was intending to be seen by the world as the man who proved to the world that Jesus did not exist and all the stories of him were fairy tales. He unlike you was willing to put forth the time and energy to seek the proof he was looking for. He spent thousands of hours pouring over every writings he could find day after day week after week month after month for like a few years , I'd have to look up the exact number of years as I think it was 2-4 . After doing the studies the result is that he not only realized how wrong HE had been and that Jesus is everything he claims to be and all that is written of Jesus is absolutely provably true .

He is now very prominent born again Christian devoting his life to spreading the Good News of Jesus the Christ writing and publishing books and making documentaries of God in the flesh Yeshua the Christ .

If you would only be willing to open your heart and mind and seek to prove what you say to be true you then would discover just how wrong you are and come to know was is true , but as long you remain stiff necked and refuse to study outside the limited box you have created you'll remain in the fog believing something that zero support in scripture as 100% of what you believe is assumption
Scripture that speaks of the rapture has no mention of a second coming of Christ
Scripture that speaks of the second coming of Christ has no mention of the rapture
The rapture happens in a split second start to finish the second coming lasts a long time to allow every eye on earth to see it happen
your view has no scripture support which is why you have to insert assumptions to make even the flimsiest of a case for it
You should be willing to say things like ....lets explore this together as you want to study and learn .....
no you won't because you think you know it all already --

 

[seventysevens]

No person is in heaven with Christ now. Heaven is a place that we humans cannot go to. John 7:34, John 8:21-23, Proverbs 10:30 All the dead 'sleep' until the Great White Throne Judgement.

Recall the story of the demonic spirit that inhabited the man that is called Legion ? Jesus cast them out of the man and into the swine then the swine ran off the cliff,. This is an example of the spirit being using a 'host' body , the same is with humans - our physical body is a host to our spirit/soul to live and operate in . The soul/spirit is that part which is 'you' the personage , the personality that has seen colors and chose to love and seek Christ. At death the physical body ceases to function as the blood has gone out from the body and is put in the grave.

That dead physical body when looked upon looks to be asleep , but your soul/spirit does not die , it is eternally made from the day you were born. If you did not accept Christ as savoir before your death then your soul/spirit will go to hades until the Great White Throne judgment after judgment it is cast into the lake of fire eternally tormented -NOT asleep nor is it asleep in hades

If you have accepted Jesus as savoir and you die then your body goes in the grave and your soul/spirit goes directly to heaven in the presence of Christ and so shall forever and ever without end will never be separated from Christ , In heaven and in presence of Christ those people are alive , have awareness of where they are , they are conscience and enjoying being in the presence of God Almighty , they are enjoying being in the presence of all the other people who are there , communicating with each other , the only thing they are lacking is their physical body that was corrupted by sin from the fall of Adam.
But they will receive a new body that has the appearance of their old body only it will be incapable of being corrupted and will last for eternity permanently with Christ Jesus for all of eternity and as such will never be a part of the Great White Throne judgment as that is reserved for those who died in their sin and did not accept Christ as savoir, however you will face Christ as Judge at the BEMA Seat of Christ -otherwise known as the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Elementary level teaching that children learn is that when we die in Christ we go to heaven - that is our soul/spirit that part of us that makes who you are as a person/personality the part that knows how to love , share and give as your body can only do what you tell it to do .
When Jesus returns to earth all those who currently reside/live in Heaven right this minute will be coming down from heaven WITH Jesus at the same moment that Jesus comes down from Heaven.

Trying to help you understand your faulty interpretation of who we are in the creation. Just as the evil spirits were cast out of one 'host' body into a different 'host' body , your personage of who God created is your soul/spirit which is utilizing your current 'host' body while on this earth, when your body dies it goes in the grave your personage you the soul/spirit goes to Heaven to live with your creator Christ Jesus , reference to being 'asleep' is limited to only the physical body , NOT the personage of who occupied that host body. Without the soul/spirit occupying that host body , that body is incapable of doing anything on it's own.

Proving that Believers in Christ ARE in Heaven Right Now!

At the rapture the asleep bodies are raised from the grave and united with the soul/spirit with the new Glorified Eternal body , and those born again believers who are living on earth at that same moment are caught up together with them , so that it results in all saints from ancient times to that present day are all together all having a new glorified body that will never die.
You seem to have written a version of your own bible to satisfy your own desire which is full of fantasy and fiction

 

[Biblewriter]

I believe you meant Irving, instead of Newton.

My source is Brethren Historian F.R. Coad, who wrote the following paper during the 1960's.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


As one of the most ardent Darby apologists now living, your viewpoint cannot be viewed as being without bias.

Based on what you provided about Lewis Way, he never claimed that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

You may want to be very careful in using the term "willful deception".
When you point 1 finger at others, several other fingers are pointing back at you.

.

And as an ardent opponent of Darby, Coad's viewpoint cannot be viewed as being without bias. But I am speaking of well documented facts, not about unproven allegations. Darby penned hundreds of pages about his contention with Newton. And his contention was about ecclesiology, not eschatology. You can read this in its entirety at Stem Publishing

At the same web site, you will also fine numerous comments about Irving and the Irvingites, as he called them. And he never said anything good about them, even once. He openly reported about visiting one of their meetings, and concluding that it was Satanic in its origin. But Darby's contention with irving was also not about eschatology, but about Christology.

You continue to willfully misrepresent the doctrines of dispensationalism, when you continually accuse us of teaching that modern Jews will come to salvation "outside the church." You know perfectly well that we teach, and very plainly teach, that no one will ever come to salvation outside of faith in Christ. And since we teach that these people will be part of a different group that God never calls "the church," you deceptively phrase your accusation in languge that is technically accurate, but is designed to make it appear that we teach what you very well know we do not teach.

And you continually willfully misrepresent the origins of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture by continually posting videos that claim it originated in the doctrines of Irving, who they claim was Darby's source, when you have personally seen and responded to case after case of statements of this doctrine published before Irving ever wrote anything, and even pre-dating Irving's alleged source, Lacunza.

 

[Biblewriter]

So a wealthy beyond measure , gluttonous , idle to the point of taking vacations while others go hungry , spending much of their free time watching/playing football or other vain shows produced by the god of this world ...thumping their chest in patriotic pride in union with those who hate Christ Jesus and despise the TRUTH ... , get " raptured up " because they believed in Jesus . OK ..makes sense to me . Please see 2nd Peter 2:2 " Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of the truth will be defamed.3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with tales they have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.…

I do not see that we the church are in any way in a state of readiness to be "raptured" . Repent ..yes ..raptured , No ..we first need humility and the ability to be wrong .

Matthew 24:45 .
Who then is thefaithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of hishousehold, to give the others their food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that servant whose master returns and finds him doing his job.…
Why was this servant " left behind "

I do not say this in judgment but observationally ..how are we different than the description of sodom in Ezekiel 16:49 ..this is the sin of your sister sodom ..arrogant , overfed and unconcerned .

Every time I hear a pretrib rapture ..it is always hand in hand with a proud verses broken spirit ..it has never brought anyone to true repentance ...I do not believe that fear of being " left behind " is true repentance nor does it work love in one's heart ...I am afraid we are teaching a doctrine that " Gets people saved " but does not make them disciples of Christ ..teaching them to obey all that He commanded them ..... And worse ...we encompass land and sea making them two-fold more the child of hell . This is the result of pre-trib . And one may heap to themselves many many teachers who teach this ...actually you may book a cruise on a cruise ship with many of these teachers ...just don't look for Christ ...He is with the poor in the kitchen serving you .

This post is based on the false concept of "deserving" anything from Christ. The only thing we deserve, is punishment. Our relationship with Christ is based on grace, not on just rewards.

 

[keras]

Proving that Believers in Christ ARE in Heaven Right Now!

Your lengthy post is completely bereft of scriptural support and full of your beliefs and opinions.

There is no humans in heaven now, only the souls of the martyrs that Jesus will bring with Him at His Return. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 Proved by Revelation 21:11-15 that says it is only after the Millennium, when all the dead, small and great, [wicked and righteous] stand before God in Judgement. Only those whose names are written in the Book of Life will receive immortality, the rest go into the Lake of Fire.
Thinking that anyone receives immortal bodies before that time is wrong. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is another prophecy about that Judgement. Proved by Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Truth7t7]

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.
For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

The verses you provide show the second advent of Jesus Christ and the final resurrection.
No pre-trib rapture there.

 

[Truth7t7]

The analogy is an illustration of truth that can be proven , but you nor any post tribber will put forth the effort to study thoroughly enough to learn it as you would simply dismiss anything that does not fit in the man made squeeze box doctrine you have .
Your problem is that you are not willing to explore areas you have not explored to learn new truth that you have not yet learned. You may disagree but that in no way indicates what you prefer to believe has any merit

Your mindset is very very much like a very well known publisher who hated hearing the name of Jesus ,he was a very devout outspoken atheist and could not stand hearing Christians speaking about Jesus. His disdain and bitterness toward Christians speaking of Christ was a cup boiling over.

He decided that he was going to go all out to prove Christians to be following a foolish teaching and was intending to be seen by the world as the man who proved to the world that Jesus did not exist and all the stories of him were fairy tales. He unlike you was willing to put forth the time and energy to seek the proof he was looking for. He spent thousands of hours pouring over every writings he could find day after day week after week month after month for like a few years , I'd have to look up the exact number of years as I think it was 2-4 . After doing the studies the result is that he not only realized how wrong HE had been and that Jesus is everything he claims to be and all that is written of Jesus is absolutely provably true .

He is now very prominent born again Christian devoting his life to spreading the Good News of Jesus the Christ writing and publishing books and making documentaries of God in the flesh Yeshua the Christ .

If you would only be willing to open your heart and mind and seek to prove what you say to be true you then would discover just how wrong you are and come to know was is true , but as long you remain stiffnecked and refuse to study outside the limited box you have created you'll remain in the fog believing something that zero support in scripture as 100% of what you believe is assumption
Scripture that speaks of the rapture has no mention of a second coming of Christ
Scripture that speaks of the second coming of Christ has no mention of the rapture
The rapture happens in a split second start to finish the second coming lasts a long time to allow every eye on earth to see it happen
your view has no scripture support which is why you have to insert assumptions to make even the flimsiest of a case for it
You should be willing to say things like ....lets explore this together as you want to study and learn .....
no you won't because you think you know it all already --

You did a whole bunch of writing and didnt provide one scripture to support your claim of a pre-trib rapture.