Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

artybloke · Jun 8, 2006

Yeah, sure. That's it.

Of course. The oppressor's reading of the text is always the most "natural" reading of it. That's why it becomes prevalent. The claim that every other reading of the text is not only wrong but unnatural is the way that any other reading gets dismissed. The winner is always the one that writes the history. If you dismiss someone as "unnatural" you don't have to listen to them, you don't have to treat them as you would anyone else, you can treat them as less than human if you wish.

The tactic of all oppressive regimes everywhere.

Colabomb · Jun 8, 2006

artybloke said:
Typical heterosexist reading of scripture. Can't see beyond your heterosexist reading of the Bible.

Yup, all strait people are in a massive conspiracy to get those evil gays.

BURN EM AT THE STAKE!

WHOOOO!

(In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm.)

lawtonfogle · Jun 8, 2006

artybloke said:
Of course. The oppressor's reading of the text is always the most "natural" reading of it. That's why it becomes prevalent. The claim that every other reading of the text is not only wrong but unnatural is the way that any other reading gets dismissed. The winner is always the one that writes the history. If you dismiss someone as "unnatural" you don't have to listen to them, you don't have to treat them as you would anyone else, you can treat them as less than human if you wish.

The tactic of all oppressive regimes everywhere.

In such, we need to come up with a reading everyone accepts, right?

SanctiSpiritus · Jun 8, 2006

Proselyte said:
Hate the sin, not the man. I am not prejudiced against homosexuals. I would be remiss in my duties if I was to stand silently aside as the tenets of scripture were twisted to enable politically correct Christianity where no one feels convicted about their lifestyle.

Exactly. Gays would argue with a Stop sign if it offended their self-serving aims. What's the quote that says thou shalt not add to, or take away from My Word?!?

Proselyte · Jun 8, 2006

SanctiSpiritus said:
Exactly. Gays would argue with a Stop sign if it offended their self-serving aims. What's the quote that says thou shalt not add to, or take away from My Word?!?

Aye.

Colabomb · Jun 8, 2006

artybloke said:
Of course. The oppressor's reading of the text is always the most "natural" reading of it. That's why it becomes prevalent. The claim that every other reading of the text is not only wrong but unnatural is the way that any other reading gets dismissed. The winner is always the one that writes the history. If you dismiss someone as "unnatural" you don't have to listen to them, you don't have to treat them as you would anyone else, you can treat them as less than human if you wish.

The tactic of all oppressive regimes everywhere.

Oppressor?

Don't you think this is a bit outrageous?

MapleLeaf · Jun 8, 2006

SanctiSpiritus said:
Exactly. Gays would argue with a Stop sign if it offended their self-serving aims. What's the quote that says thou shalt not add to, or take away from My Word?!?

That's bull and you know it.

Gay people want the same as everyone else, to be treated with respect and equality in society. If you are incapable of doing that, then clearly you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

It is the fundamentalist Christians who have the self-serving agenda. They want the rest of the world to adhere to their strict interpretation of the Bible - everyone else be damned.

If you want to run the country using the Bible, set up your own country and call it a theocracy. Canada certainly is not a theocracy and I do not believe the U.S. is either... Bushie just wants to make it one.

Colabomb · Jun 8, 2006

MapleLeaf said:
That's bull and you know it

Gay people want the same as everyone else, to be treated with respect and equality in society. If you are incapable of doing that, then clearly you are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

While I realize this post was not addressed to me, I would like to point a few things out. You are making assumptions.

I believe homosexuality is a sin. But don't you dare assume that those of us who hold this view do not treat homosexuals as human beings worthy of respect. Since all are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God, I realize that without Christ I would be in the same boat.

It is the fundamentalist Christians who have the self-serving agenda. They want the rest of the world to adhere to their strict interpretation of the Bible - everyone else be damned.

Again, this is not a fundementalist principle, but an ancient one. Right or wrong, all of Christianity throughout History has held to this belief, that homosexuality is a sin.

Secondly, if you think Fundementalism has to do with an attitude, rather than a formulaic doctrine, you obviously do not understand fundementalism.

If you want to run the country using the Bible, set up your own country and call it a theocracy. Canada certainly is not a theocracy and I do not believe the U.S. is either... Bushie just wants to make it one.

When did this become a political debate?

Is your theology built on politicosocial concepts or the Scriptures and Traditions of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? (Told you I'm not a fundie) I base my sociopolitcial views on my faith, not my faith on my sociopolitical views.

No, I do not want a theocracy. A theocracy would tell me how to practice my faith. And while I disagree with you, I would never wish for any man to tell you how to live your faith.

Thirdly, "Bushie" does not favor a theocracy, evidenced by the fact he speaks of Islam as a "religion of Peace". If he wanted a Theocracy, he would be propagandizing against Islam, and any other non Christian Religion.

Take your knife out of the straw man for a moment and see what some of us actually believe.

artybloke · Jun 9, 2006

Colabomb said:
Oppressor?

Don't you think this is a bit outrageous?

No I don't, actually.

artybloke · Jun 9, 2006

Colabomb said:
(In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm.)

In case you couldn't tell, I used irony. More subtle, don't y'know. But then I'm English and get to play the villain in Bond movies...

artybloke · Jun 9, 2006

lawtonfogle said:
In such, we need to come up with a reading everyone accepts, right?

Much worse than that. You have to accept the possibility that your reading of the Bible - in fact, the reading of the Bible of a lot of the church (though not all - there were always exceptions) was wrong.

Just as the church was wrong about slavery, the priesthood of women, heliocentrism, apartheid - well, any number of other issues...

As for the oppressor thing:

The church has, since very soon after its inception, always been attracted to power. One of the methods of keeping power is to demonise the Other. Whether the Other is the so-called witches of the middle-ages (usually the poor old wise woman in the village) or, currently, gay people doesn't matter. Of course it will find its justification in the Bible. Just as the slavers did, who would tell you that black people weren't as human as white people, or belong to the "wrong" tribe of Isreal, or whatever.

Jesus was not attracted to power. Jesus was attracted to the poor, the ones that the official religious branded as "sinners", women, children, and they were attracted to him. He said to the poor, "your sins are forgiven," but he called the powerful, "whited sepulchres, full of dry bones," "hypocrites" etc. That's why the Gospel is good news.

Colabomb · Jun 9, 2006

artybloke said:
Much worse than that. You have to accept the possibility that your reading of the Bible - in fact, the reading of the Bible of a lot of the church (though not all - there were always exceptions) was wrong.

Just as the church was wrong about slavery, the priesthood of women, heliocentrism, apartheid - well, any number of other issues...

As for the oppressor thing:

The church has, since very soon after its inception, always been attracted to power. One of the methods of keeping power is to demonise the Other. Whether the Other is the so-called witches of the middle-ages (usually the poor old wise woman in the village) or, currently, gay people doesn't matter. Of course it will find its justification in the Bible. Just as the slavers did, who would tell you that black people weren't as human as white people, or belong to the "wrong" tribe of Isreal, or whatever.

Jesus was not attracted to power. Jesus was attracted to the poor, the ones that the official religious branded as "sinners", women, children, and they were attracted to him. He said to the poor, "your sins are forgiven," but he called the powerful, "whited sepulchres, full of dry bones," "hypocrites" etc. That's why the Gospel is good news.

He also said, REPENT!

Go and Sin no more.

lawtonfogle · Jun 9, 2006

artybloke said:
Much worse than that. You have to accept the possibility that your reading of the Bible - in fact, the reading of the Bible of a lot of the church (though not all - there were always exceptions) was wrong.

Just as the church was wrong about slavery, the priesthood of women, heliocentrism, apartheid - well, any number of other issues...

As for the oppressor thing:

The church has, since very soon after its inception, always been attracted to power. One of the methods of keeping power is to demonise the Other. Whether the Other is the so-called witches of the middle-ages (usually the poor old wise woman in the village) or, currently, gay people doesn't matter. Of course it will find its justification in the Bible. Just as the slavers did, who would tell you that black people weren't as human as white people, or belong to the "wrong" tribe of Isreal, or whatever.

Jesus was not attracted to power. Jesus was attracted to the poor, the ones that the official religious branded as "sinners", women, children, and they were attracted to him. He said to the poor, "your sins are forgiven," but he called the powerful, "whited sepulchres, full of dry bones," "hypocrites" etc. That's why the Gospel is good news.

My reading of the Bible is sometimes quite different than my church's. I do think being a homosexual is wrong, but it is not a disease we should try to eradicate by killing all homosexuals. In fact, some of my family are homosexuals, and so are some of my neighbors. I find no problem living by them. If I have one problem with homosexuals, it is how the entire thing is turning into such a fad that kids who should not have even hit puberty claim they are bi. And that is not entirely the fault of the homosexuals.

MorganParadise · Jun 9, 2006

I will just say this, dont let your emotions get involved, when emotions are involved or how people think people make mistakes. The bible is the only acceptable answer to the question. The bible speaks on this subject and that is the divine answer and the only answer. It makes no differenct to me what people "think" the bible is the answer look to the bilble and you will ALWAYS be right. God Bless You

DeepThinker · Jun 9, 2006

The Bible is taken to far in extreems, people read every word and think that every word MUST be acted upon.
In reading the Bible literally you forget the simple overall message that comes from it, it is not about condeming others or fearing God.
There is ONE message that comes from the Bible and that is LOVE.
The two most important commandments are love God and love thy neighboor. If you do these things you cannot break the other commandments its simple, people make this message too complecated, even with the other commandments that Jesus said we must keep. Homosexuallity simply does not come into it, so if homosexuallity is a sin it most cirtainly is not a cardanal one.
Did you ever think that the Bible could have been used to control a people, the romans for one had the opportunity to add in as much as they wanted!

The message of the Bible is inspired by God but that message as I said is simple. LOVE.
Get hung up on the smaller things and you instantly loose sight of what it is all about.
The Bible is not a rule book, wouldnt life be easy if it was, follow this book and you go to heaven. NO! following the message is much harder, and guess what, life is supposed to be hard.

People are concentrating on what not to do in order to escape Hell, when what they should be concentrating on is what to do in order to go to Heaven.

Proselyte · Jun 9, 2006

Man is fallible, and as such, the use of the Bible for power as artybloke said is disheartening. That said, man's misuse of it does not diminish the validity of it. Man will misuse anything to his advantage. The Bible remains true. Jesus quoted the scriptures all the time. He was a Rabbi. The scriptures were a core of his arsenal. If the scriptures were good for Jesus, they are good for us.

What man has done is disappointing, but that shows us we are nothing without God and his Bible.

MorganParadise · Jun 9, 2006

1Ti 6:3-5
(3) If anyone teaches otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words (those of our Lord Jesus Christ), and to the doctrine according to godliness,
(4) he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,
(5) meddling, of men whose minds have been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. Withdraw from such.

He tells us to Withdraw from Such
Read the whold chapter if you want. You stick with your values and Ill stick with the bible and its authority.

Proselyte · Jun 9, 2006

MorganParadise said:
1Ti 6:3-5
(3) If anyone teaches otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words (those of our Lord Jesus Christ), and to the doctrine according to godliness,
(4) he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,
(5) meddling, of men whose minds have been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. Withdraw from such.

He tells us to Withdraw from Such
Read the whold chapter if you want. You stick with your values and Ill stick with the bible and its authority.

Awesome!

Time and time again I read people here who rely on the value of their own hearts instead of the Bible. Time and Time again we have seen that man is fallible and our own hearts lead down the wrong path.

DeepThinker · Jun 9, 2006

Proselyte said:
What man has done is disappointing, but that shows us we are nothing without God and his Bible.

You dont need the Bible you just need God, the Bible is just a book, just one way of reaching him, and as you say it is often missinterpreted, listen to God and no one else.

DeepThinker · Jun 9, 2006

MorganParadise said:
1Ti 6:3-5
(3) If anyone teaches otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words (those of our Lord Jesus Christ), and to the doctrine according to godliness,
(4) he is proud, knowing nothing. He is sick concerning doubts and arguments, from which comes envy, strife, evil speakings, evil suspicions,
(5) meddling, of men whose minds have been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness. Withdraw from such.

He tells us to Withdraw from Such
Read the whold chapter if you want. You stick with your values and Ill stick with the bible and its authority.

Hmm, is this a comment on my post? are you saying that the overall message in the Bible is not one of "love"? are you saying my heart and mind are corrupted because I seek to not condem people but to love them instead, as Jesus did?

Do you assume without the Bible we cannot tell the difference of right and wrong? To see what is evil and what is not?

Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

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