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Debate help...why is homosexuality wrong?

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george78

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Well, that for starters. It's a matter of debate about what the Greek actually means, but "arsenokoites" probably does not mean "homosexuals". Especially as there wasn't a word for it till the end of the 19th century. That's a choice made by the translators in the 20th century.

Paul here is using a neologism: a word that didn't exist in writing until he used it here. What did it mean to the people who read it?

It could refer to the customers of ritual prostitutes in pagan temples ("malakois"? or catemites); it could refer to the Greek practice of "grooming" young boys; it could refer to procuring boys for the temples. What it doesn't refer to is "homosexuality", a concept which didn't exist in the 1st century. (not that there weren't "gay people" but the category didn't exist as a separate idea.)


This has been completely debunked by scholars with academic qualifications that are beyond repute. Scholars who don't possess a specific agenda BTW.

There is no rational and logical exgesis that would allow the reading that pro homo-sex advocates would have. I know many point to Dale B. Martin's twisting of 1 Corinthians 6, but the fact is, Martin has an agenda. Nothing short of complete dishonesty or ignorance allows such a twisted reading of the passage. There is no support for his reading. None. Zero. Nadda. Zippo. As I said, there are only two explainations for him being so far off the mark.

In fact, if you even those who are pro homo-sex, (Such as Walter Wink) will admit that the reading of 1 Corinthians 6 that Martin proposes, is unworkable. Dr. Gagnon points that out in some of his work.

http://wordalone.org/pdf/dmartinexamined-short.pdf
http://www.westernsem.edu/wtseminary/assets/Gagnon2%20Aut05.pdf
http://www.robgagnon.net/PowellRespSec123.htm
http://www.robgagnon.net/ChristianSexualityNotes.htm

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/homosexuality_corinthians6.pdf
 
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HunterRose

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SanctiSpiritus said:
Amen to that. The gays want to pick and choose which of Gods laws to abide by. Not unlike many other people. It's just more of the same.
and because Christians NEVER pick and choose which of Gods laws top abide by….
Christians do not cut their hair (Lev. 19:27)
Christians do not eat pork (Lev. 11:7)
Christians don’t pray in public (Matthew 6:5-6)
Christians never dine on shrimp or scallops or oysters (Lev. 11:10-12)
Christians do not wear clothing made of different fabrics (Lev. 19:19)
Christians all have long hair (Numbers 6:5)
Christians do not participate in or use produces of modern agriculture (Lev. 19:19)
Christians offer up burn sacrifices (Psalms 50:13-14)
Christians never shave (Lev. 19:27)
Christian men refuse to have contact with a woman during her period (Lev. 20:18)
Christians are just fine with slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46) (Exodus 21:2-11)
No Christian ever attends church while wearing glasses (Lev 21:20)
Christians have no issues with rape (Judges 21:10-24) (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Nope…no picking and choosing for Christians
 
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artybloke

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Absolutely true completely argued by scholars with academic qualifications that are beyond repute.

or do you think that only your scholars are telling the truth?

Nothing short of complete dishonesty or ignorance allows such a twisted reading.
And if you accuse me of either dishonesty or ignorance again, I well report you. I see no reason why I should take any insults from you.
 
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HunterRose

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artybloke said:
Well, that for starters. It's a matter of debate about what the Greek actually means, but "arsenokoites" probably does not mean "homosexuals". Especially as there wasn't a word for it till the end of the 19th century. That's a choice made by the translators in the 20th century.

Paul here is using a neologism: a word that didn't exist in writing until he used it here. What did it mean to the people who read it?
Well it apparently did exist…but it just was not a terribly common word. That aside If Paul had wanted to speak of homosexuals ancient Greek had clear and well known words for that…but he did not use those words at all.
 
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Proselyte

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HunterRose said:
Aside from the obvious….your example ignores “thou shall not kill” it also ignores the commandment of Jesus himself "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35.

Ultimately Paul’s message seems to be about dishonesty or denying who one is. Just as murder causes untold harm so does lying about who you are. You asked should a gay man “not deny his tendencies and attempt to marry a woman?” Yet this would cause untold harm as all lies do. Harm to the woman he leis to and claims he loves, harm to any children that might come from such a sham marriage. Harm to their extended families. Harm to their friends harm to society….harm harm harm…all from lying. And ultimately there is spiritual harm in that (correct me if I am wrong) lying is also a sin and according to Proverbs 6:16-19, an abomination.


Further your comparison here dehumanizes an entire minority by defining them in this way. Would you compare all African Americans to murderers? All Jews to adulterers? All handicapped to liars? Would not any of these comparisons be denounced as hate? Can you explain why your comparison to gays and lesbians to murderers is not hate?
I think you are getting too caught up in legalism. This was the problem with the Pharisees.
Paul was not preaching that people should not deny who they are as a license to continue in sin. Sin in itself is unavoidable. Continuing to live in sin with a reoccuring theme...i.e homosexual relationship, drug abuse etc. is not what is authorized or encouraged.
That is more the reluctance to give up this worldy life and lack of conviction with the Bible. It is called convenient translation.
 
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Proselyte

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artybloke said:
Typical heterosexist reading of scripture. Can't see beyond your heterosexist reading of the Bible.
That is called sound and fundamental teaching in accordance with the Bible. Or are you someone who believes the Bible is not the living Word of God, and you can pick and choose? I respect your right to believe that, just want to understand where you are coming from.
 
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Proselyte

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HunterRose said:
Is it possibly your personal prejudices are influencing yours?
Hate the sin, not the man. I am not prejudiced against homosexuals. I would be remiss in my duties if I was to stand silently aside as the tenets of scripture were twisted to enable politically correct Christianity where no one feels convicted about their lifestyle.
 
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george78

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or do you think that only your scholars are telling the truth?


No, the Bible and the languages are telling the Truth. Dale B. Martin's reading and twisting of the languages is completely incompatable with any rational exgesis.


And if you accuse me of either dishonesty or ignorance again, I well report you. I see no reason why I should take any insults from you.


Are you Dale B. Martin?? I highly doubt that. He doesn't live in England.

Besides, what I stated is a simple fact. It isn't a personal insult or flame. If you take it as such, I can't help it, but that isn't what I ment. I meant only what I said. That no rational exgesis supports the Martin reading of "Arsenokoites" and "Malakos". There are only two explainations for the faulty reading. Either ignorance of the original languages, or willful misrepresentation of the passage.

There are no other explainations for such a reading. Or at least none that I am aware of. Point one out if you think that there is.


 
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artybloke

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Or are you someone who believes the Bible is not the living Word of God

No, it's not. Christ is the only living Word of God that the bible itself acknowledges. I don't worship a book.

As for picking and choosing, see Hunter Rose's post above then tell me you don't do the same thing.

That is called sound and fundamental teaching in accordance with the Bible.
No it's not. It's called reading into the Bible what you think ought to be there.
 
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george78

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and because Christians NEVER pick and choose which of Gods laws top abide by….
Christians do not cut their hair (Lev. 19:27)
Christians do not eat pork (Lev. 11:7)
Christians don’t pray in public (Matthew 6:5-6)
Christians never dine on shrimp or scallops or oysters (Lev. 11:10-12)
Christians do not wear clothing made of different fabrics (Lev. 19:19)
Christians all have long hair (Numbers 6:5)
Christians do not participate in or use produces of modern agriculture (Lev. 19:19)
Christians offer up burn sacrifices (Psalms 50:13-14)
Christians never shave (Lev. 19:27)
Christian men refuse to have contact with a woman during her period (Lev. 20:18)
Christians are just fine with slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46) (Exodus 21:2-11)
No Christian ever attends church while wearing glasses (Lev 21:20)
Christians have no issues with rape (Judges 21:10-24) (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Nope…no picking and choosing for Christians

Colossians 2:16-17


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



Hebrews 9:6-12 “Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

The ceremonial laws of the OT were put their for a purpose, TO POINT TO CHRIST. When Christ came, he fufilled those laws.

(This came from Jesus Himself, See Matthew 5:17-19.)


This is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture, one that has been affirmed by various confessions of faith. (For example 1689 LBCOF (With Scripture Proofs:)

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God

1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 ) 2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )
3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )
4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )
5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )
6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )
7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )
 
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Proselyte

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artybloke said:
No, it's not. Christ is the only living Word of God that the bible itself acknowledges. I don't worship a book.

As for picking and choosing, see Hunter Rose's post above then tell me you don't do the same thing.

No it's not. It's called reading into the Bible what you think ought to be there.
Thanks for your reply. I understand your viewpoint and though different, you have a right to it. Neither of us are going to convince the other, given the firmness of our positions. It's good to have these exchanges now and then.
 
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george78

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No, it's not. Christ is the only living Word of God that the bible itself acknowledges. I don't worship a book.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://concordance.biblebrowser.com/r/righteousness.htm[/FONT]
2 Tim 3:16

KJV

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

YLT:

every Writing 'is' God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that 'is' in righteousness,


As for picking and choosing, see Hunter Rose's post above then tell me you don't do the same thing.


Colossians 2:16-17

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



Hebrews 9:6-12 “Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

The ceremonial laws of the OT were put their for a purpose, TO POINT TO CHRIST. When Christ came, he fufilled those laws.

(This came from Jesus Himself, See Matthew 5:17-19.)


This is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture, one that has been affirmed by various confessions of faith. (For example 1689 LBCOF (With Scripture Proofs:)

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God

1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 ) 2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )
3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )
4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )
5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )
6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )
7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )


No it's not. It's called reading into the Bible what you think ought to be there.


No, it's called sound exgesis.
 
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artybloke

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No, it's called sound exgesis.

Only to those who see what they want to see.

As for 2 Tim, that's another debate. But I don't see Paul (or actually, not Paul, someone who wanted to be identified as Paul) calling the Bible the Word of God in this passage or anywhere else. And no-one would deny that the Bible is "useful."

As for the rest of the waffle... the least said the better. Mostly rubbish.
 
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george78

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Only to those who see what they want to see.


Yeah, sure. That's it. :yawn:

As for 2 Tim, that's another debate. But I don't see Paul (or actually, not Paul, someone who wanted to be identified as Paul) calling the Bible the Word of God in this passage or anywhere else. And no-one would deny that the Bible is "useful."

:sigh: Ok, I see where you are coming from in your posts. Please don't take any further non-response to you as a snub or slight, or think of it as any bitterness or hatred toward you personally. It isn't that at all. I just have to make use of the features that CF offers us now.

As for the rest of the waffle... the least said the better. Mostly rubbish.

Ok, Whatever. :wave:
 
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