Dead Faith still saves, Romans 4:5

[Rescued One]

Do you, d taylor, believe we generate our own saving faith?

 

[Danthemailman]

Using demons, who eternal life salvation was never meant for, is not a good comparison. For mankind who Jesus came and took on humanity to die and be resurrected and offers God's free gift of Eternal Life to.

The comparison was with the word believe - "pisteuo" which is the Greek word used in both James 2:19 and Acts 16:31 which demonstrates that not all belief is saving belief.

Again another verse in John (2) where it is stated many believed in His name. The Bible and especially in John states again and again that is belief in The Name of Jesus that Gives a person Eternal Life.

John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. Yet not all who claim to believe truly do believe in His name. There are those who may believe in Jesus to some extent (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) but do not truly "believe in His name" and become children of God, as we saw in John 8:31-59.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. Only those who continue are truly His disciples. (John 8:31)

So how does Jesus not entrusting Himself to these believers, make The Bible's stating that these people believed in Jesus.

How does it make these believers false believers.

John 2:23 - Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in His name [identifying themselves with Him] after seeing His signs (attesting miracles) which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, for His part, did not entrust Himself to them, because He knew all people [and understood the superficiality and fickleness of human nature], 25 and He did not need anyone to testify concerning man [and human nature], for He Himself knew what was in man [in their hearts—in the very core of their being]. (AMP)

 

[Danthemailman]

I have to leave for work but so no time to write out a reply but here is a good article on John 8.

A Mixed Crowd — John 8:33 – Grace Evangelical Society

You can always find a crowd of believers and unbelievers mixed together who all claim to be believers. It's not hard to find genuine believers and make believers mixed together in various churches.

 

[d taylor]

So, as an unfaithful believer, he was never saved? Not sure what you're saying. If you are saying that this unfaithful believer is actually regenerated, and becomes unfaithful, that he is still regenerated (read, 'saved', if you like), then I agree, because God will see to it that he does finally persevere. This of course gives no one license to wander about. If someone disobeys, they forfeit the right to claim to be children of God and to claim to love him. But if someone particularly belongs to God, (that is, in more than the natural sense, that, 'all Creation belongs to God'), no one can take him out of God's hands.

But this doesn't sound like what I thought I read you to say a few posts back. Oh well.

If I was to make a similar assertion to the contrary, without Scriptural reference to back it up, it would be just as good as your bare assertion. And even easier to demonstrate logically, even without showing direct scriptural warrant.

I will leave you with these excellent articles on what we have be discussing, you can read them if you want.

Is the Gift of Faith Necessary for People to Become Open to God’s Word? – Grace Evangelical Society

If Unbelievers Actually Believe, Then Isn’t There Room for Them to Boast? – Grace Evangelical Society

For God Made Us Alive Together with Christ Through Faith – Grace Evangelical Society

https://faithalone.org/grace-in-foc...uld-anyone-need-to-strive-to-enter-luke-1324/

 

[d taylor]

Do you, d taylor, believe we generate our own saving faith?

It is a simple fact that every person born (unless there is some kind of birth defect in a person) is born with the ability to exercise faith in something or someone.

Now what these calvanist reformed people say, is that everyday day faith people use, is not the faith used to trust in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.
They (calvanist reformers) say God gives certian people (the elected person) a special kind of faith used to believe. Many calvanist say that these people are actually born again before they believe.

Article about this, is the link below
John 6:35 and Total Depravity – Grace Evangelical Society

So what i believe is that, God does not give a special faith used to believe in The Messiah. I believe the faith used to trust in The Messiah to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, is the everyday faith we use to trust in or believe in, that is used in our daily lives.

 

[d taylor]

You can always find a crowd of believers and unbelievers mixed together who all claim to be believers. It's not hard to find genuine believers and make believers mixed together in various churches.

But i was not addressing contemporary church's, but people who are in The Bible where The Bible states they believed in Jesus. I am stating that in The Bible when The Bible states a person is a believer, they are a believer and not a false believer.

As in John 8 which had a mixed crowd of people, but then as Jesus begins to speak The Bible states.
Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

So it is seen that as Jesus spoke out of the crowd that was gathered to listen to Him, many became believers. The Bible does not say all, but many. So now it is a mixed crowd of believers and unbelievers

Now it is seen Jesus addresses just the ones who just believed in Him. Even though the unbelievers are still there
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Now it is seen the unbelievers in the crowd saying to Jesus.
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

Now Jesus addressing the crowd of new believers and unbelievers He says
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Now Jesus is speaking to the unbelievers in the crowd who claim to be Abraham’s descendants.
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[d taylor]

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Jesus praised the centurions faith, if the faith the centurion was using was a special faith given by God. Why would Jesus heap praise on the centurion for his faith.

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

 

[Rescued One]

It is a simple fact that every person born (unless there is some kind of birth defect in a person) is born with the ability to exercise faith in something or someone.

Now what these calvanist reformed people say, is that everyday day faith people use, is not the faith used to trust in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.
They (calvanist reformers) say God gives certian people (the elected person) a special kind of faith used to believe. Many calvanist say that these people are actually born again before they believe.

Article about this, is the link below
John 6:35 and Total Depravity – Grace Evangelical Society

So what i believe is that, God does not give a special faith used to believe in The Messiah. I believe the faith used to trust in The Messiah to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, is the everyday faith we use to trust in or believe in, that is used in our daily lives.

I don't understand why you say faith is "everyday faith" because the devils don't have salvation but they believe. What is "everyday faith?"

 

[Rescued One]

Article about this, is the link below
John 6:35 and Total Depravity – Grace Evangelical Society

So what i believe is that, God does not give a special faith used to believe in The Messiah. I believe the faith used to trust in The Messiah to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, is the everyday faith we u to trust in or believe in, that is used in our daily lives.

I totally disagree with Laurence M. Vance. I sat in a church service and the Arminian pastor said (paraphrasing) "Don't be sad if your prayers don't bring your loved ones to Christ; God isn't able to save them either.

 

[Der Alte]

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Jesus praised the centurions faith, if the faith the centurion was using was a special faith given by God. Why would Jesus heap praise on the centurion for his faith.

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

I would say because the centurion, as with anyone, could accept or reject, what God offers.

 

[Rescued One]

"One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!"

From the Thomas Jackson edition of The Works of John Wesley, 1872.

 

[d taylor]

I would say because the centurion, as with anyone, could accept or reject, what God offers.

The Bible is plainly stating, God is offering eternal life. Not only is God offering eternal life, but He is offering it free.
If God is offering faith where is that stated.

 

[d taylor]

I totally disagree with Laurence M. Vance. I sat in a church service and the Arminian pastor said (paraphrasing) "Don't be sad if your prayers don't bring your loved ones to Christ; God isn't able to save them either.

I have no idea what that (your experience in a church), has to do with the article about Calvinism and their total depravity belief.

 

[Rescued One]

I'm actually concerned about how God directs our lives. I could not have found God unless He directed my steps.

Many, many people in America and the world over will never know God.

He tells parents to teach their children about Him. Why, if those children are going to be saved anyway? Are you a universalist?

Does God have plans that never come to pass?

Psalm 33:10-12
10The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Job 42:2
I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

Why aren't ALL people saved? Why weren't my parents, and grandparents, and five siblings saved?

If everyone has sinned, why am I saved?

Why did the atonement take place? Why didn't Herod succeed in killing Jesus as an infant?

Proverbs 16:9, KJV: A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

 

[Rescued One]

Total depravity is result of the Fall:

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Danthemailman]

But i was not addressing contemporary church's, but people who are in The Bible where The Bible states they believed in Jesus. I am stating that in The Bible when The Bible states a person is a believer, they are a believer and not a false believer...

Not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus in the Bible truly believes in Jesus unto salvation. (Luke 8:6,13; John 2:23-25; 8:31-59; Acts 8:13, 18-23) There are false apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) false prophets (Matthew 7:15-23) false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) and false disciples (John 6:60-66) found in the Bible. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers found throughout scripture mixed together.

 

[Ceallaigh]

God's gift of salvation doesn't go into effect when we die. Faith brings about salvation from sin and the snares of this broken world throughout our life and benefits others.

 

[d taylor]

Not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus in the Bible truly believes in Jesus unto salvation. (Luke 8:6,13; John 2:23-25; 8:31-59; Acts 8:13, 18-23) There are false apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) false prophets (Matthew 7:15-23) false brethren (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) and false disciples (John 6:60-66) found in the Bible. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers found throughout scripture mixed together.

So far you have not shown a single believer, who The Bible states believed in Jesus, as a false believer.
False prophets are not believers and The Bible does not declare them to be believers.

Simon the magician is a believer, so me one verse where it states he is a false believer.

As for the parable of the soils the only soil that was not a believer was the first soil. the other three soils 2nd, 3rd and 4th were believers. The focus of the parable is about fruit bearing of believers and not about true and false believers.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Having The Bible state a believer, who The Bible states this person has believed in Jesus, is a false believer. Can not be found, in The Bible of anyone, who by The Bible declaration is said to have believed in Jesus.

I have heard countless time that Ananias and Sapphira were false believers, but not one time is that stated in The Bible.

What happens is a theology just simply declares a person in the Bible as a false believer not because of The Bible, but because of their theological beliefs. Usually under the false idea that all believers will be obedient fruit bearing Jesus followers.

 

[Danthemailman]

So far you have not shown a single believer, who The Bible states believed in Jesus, as a false believer.

Actually I have, but you simply fail to see it.

False prophets are not believers and The Bible does not declare them to be believers.

Yet they still "profess" to be believers and not false prophets. The Bible may declare one to believe based on their confession, yet that does not necessarily mean they are a genuine believer.

Simon the magician is a believer, so me one verse where it states he is a false believer.

Even though we read that Simon was said to have "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done". In Acts 8:20, Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Does that sound like a genuine, saved believer to you? Not to me! I see absolute doubt about the legitimacy of Simon's conversion. Simon actually thought he could buy the gift of God with money! Simon followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. In verses 22-23, Peter went on to tell Simon that he needed to repent of his wickedness and he see's that Simon is poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. That certainly settles it for me. Simon was NOT a genuine believer and his conversion was bogus.

As for the parable of the soils the only soil that was not a believer was the first soil. the other three soils 2nd, 3rd and 4th were believers. The focus of the parable is about fruit bearing of believers and not about true and false believers.

False. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. Unlike saving belief/faith, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief/faith? It can't.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly preapared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.
IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.