Day of the Lord

[keras]

Peter shows in Acts 2 that Joel 2:28-32 is fulfilled at that time. How would you respond to that?

That was a partial fulfilment, a demonstration of how it will be in the future.
Proved by how that amazing outpouring of the Spirit did not last. There has been some manifestations of it again over the years, but we await the final fulfilment. Which will be AFTER the great Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, as Peter reiterates; Acts 2:19-21

 

[wonderkins]

That was a partial fulfilment, a demonstration of how it will be in the future.
Proved by how that amazing outpouring of the Spirit did not last. There has been some manifestations of it again over the years, but we await the final fulfilment. Which will be AFTER the great Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, as Peter reiterates; Acts 2:19-21

Peter doesn't say it's a partial fulfillment. He said it was what Joel said.

Having to do with the day of the Lord, Luke 21:20 says “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." It is historical fact that within 40 years the Roman army had Jerusalem surrounded. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of the same event. Was this the fulfillment of what the authors said?

 

[parousia70]

This is true Parousia,

Yes, it is.

however they foretell all will come to pass in the Day of the Lord or the Gospel age, symbolized a thousand years. Their prophesy describes this whole Gospel age as the Day of the Lord coming.

What scripture teaches this?

 

[keras]

Peter doesn't say it's a partial fulfillment. He said it was what Joel said

Historical facts prove that the Holy Spirit falling on a group of new Christians, in the first Century, was not a complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29.
Note that Joel 2:28 starts with; After this....
Meaning after all of what Joel prophesies, from Joel 2:1- 27

Why is your eschatology so pliable?

Please do not make rude insinuations to me.
I realize that what I post may not agree with your beliefs. I post what the Prophets actually said, not my words. Is it possible for your beliefs to be wrong?

Was this the fulfillment of what the authors said?

Of course, Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
But we await the fulfilment of the Prophesies about terrible cosmic and earthly things, a forthcoming event of a similar magnitude to Noah's Flood. Don't you know about it?

 

[claninja]

however they foretell all will come to pass in the Day of the Lord or the Gospel age, symbolized a thousand years. Their prophesy describes this whole Gospel age as the Day of the Lord coming

Then why didn’t Paul concur that the day of the Lord had come, but instead stated it was still future?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 a2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come

What scripture teaches this?

indeed. I couldn’t find any.

 

[rwb]

While I fully agree with this myself, how is this any different than what rwb is doing? He too has it being a long period of time, but not a literal thousand years, but 2000 years, maybe even more, depending on when Christ returns. Which then puzzles me as to why he agreed with your post when you stated the above? I don't care if he agrees with you. I won't be losing sleep over it or anything, it's that it puzzles me as to why since he is doing the same thing himself, but in a different way. IOW, how can he fault these Premils in question for doing the same thing he is doing, equating the day of the Lord with that of the thousand years?

What we basically have is this.

An Amil likens the day of the Lord with that of the thousand years, meaning the entire NT church age.

Some Premils also liken the day of the Lord with that of the thousand years, but after the 2nd coming rather than the NT church age.

IMO, both views are wrong in this particular case.

The prophets of Old prophesied about the Day of the Lord that would come in time. When you read how the prophets describe the Day of the Lord coming they almost always describe what will happen during His day that was coming with wrath and vengeance. But included along with the wrath and vengeance we also get glimpses of how the Day of the Lord the prophets foretell coming is a Day of worship and joy for the faithful.

Here for instance Isaiah says when that day comes in the last days, "the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it." Can you not see how Isaiah is describing the day/age/era of the Gospel that came with Christ when He came to earth a man?

Isaiah 2:2-5 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Even if you could understand this time, being the "last days" or this age/era/time you will focus on the words in red above and since you cannot understand how "beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruninghooks, or nation not lifting up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" describes symbolically the Church on earth during the Day of the Lord in these last days, you insist this must be a literal description of what shall come to pass after Christ comes again and Satan is bound for ONE thousand literal years. It is through symbolic language such as Isaiah writes here that premillennialists and postmillennialists believe during ONE thousand literal years after Christ comes again there will be total peace on this earth because then Satan will be bound. But to arrive at this conclusion you must ignore the contradiction forced into the Word of God. Because there is a very clear description for how everything living on this earth will be burned up when the Lord comes again in glory. He won't be coming then as Isaiah is describing, to "walk in the light of the Lord."

No, when He comes again it will be the Day of the Lord, a single Day, not to build up but to destroy all that is of the old earth to remake again as new heaven and new earth. It will be on that Day of the Lord when that described by Isaiah as A Day of destruction and wrath coming from the Lord. That Day that comes at the end of the Day/age/time/era of the Lord and shall be A Day of great fear and mourning, for it will be on THAT DAY, ONE at the end of the Day of the Lord that Christ will come as the New Testament Apostles foresee as a day of gloom and destruction.

Isaiah 2:12-22 (KJV) For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

The Old Covenant prophets described the Day of the Lord that would come as both the time for building and the time for destroying. And all they describe about the Day of the Lord they foretell as both the age/time/era when the promised Messiah would come, and they foretell of the final day of this age/time/era when the Lord returns. But in their prophesy, they NEVER speak of TWO separate comings of the Day of the Lord! They prophesy as though all that will come when Messiah finally comes to earth will come to pass during the age/era/time of Christ. And they were right, all they prophesied would happen has happened, is happening, and will finally be complete in the Day of the Lord coming to earth a man. The age/era/time, likened to a thousand years that began with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

 

[rwb]

Then why didn’t Paul concur that the day of the Lord had come, but instead stated it was still future?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 a2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come

Because unlike those of old who lived before the coming of Christ to earth a man, Paul had already seen the Day of the Lord come, so he is waiting for the Day of the Lord to come AGAIN on the final Day (one) of the Lord.

 

[rwb]

What scripture teaches this?

See reply to David #26.

 

[rwb]

indeed. I couldn’t find any.

See reply #26

 

[wonderkins]

Historical facts prove that the Holy Spirit falling a group of new Christians, in the first Century, was not a complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29.
Note that Joel 2:28 starts with; After this....
Meaning after all of what Joel prophesies, from Joel 2:1- 27

Please do not make rude insinuations to me.
I realize that what I post may not agree with your beliefs. I post what the Prophets actually said, not my words. Is it possible for your beliefs to be wrong?

Of course, Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
But we await the fulfilment of the Prophesies about terrible cosmic and earthly things, a forthcoming event of a similar magnitude to Noah's Flood. Don't you know about it?

Historical facts prove that the Holy Spirit falling a group of new Christians, in the first Century, was not a complete fulfilment of Joel 2:28-29.
Note that Joel 2:28 starts with; After this....
Meaning after all of what Joel prophesies, from Joel 2:1- 27

Please do not make rude insinuations to me.
I realize that what I post may not agree with your beliefs. I post what the Prophets actually said, not my words. Is it possible for your beliefs to be wrong?

Of course, Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
But we await the fulfilment of the Prophesies about terrible cosmic and earthly things, a forthcoming event of a similar magnitude to Noah's Flood. Don't you know about it?

You're right. I shouldn't have made the pliable remark. I'm sorry for that.

Yes it's possible I'm wrong in my eschatology. However having spent the first 38 years of my life being premillenial, I've come to the understanding that postmillenialism is correct. When I saw the history of Jerusalem, which was never taught in the churches I grew up in, it was clear something was off in what I believed. Historical events have caused me to believe that most of the end times texts have already occurred.

 

[claninja]

Because unlike those of old who lived before the coming of Christ to earth a man, Paul had already seen the Day of the Lord come, so he is waiting for the Day of the Lord to come AGAIN on the final Day (one) of the Lord.

You said “the day of the Lord” is the “gospel age”. That’s completed different than saying Christ coming in the flesh is “a day of the Lord”.

 

[rwb]

You said “the day of the Lord” is the “gospel age”. That’s completed different than saying Christ coming in the flesh is “a day of the Lord”.

Acts 2, quoting from the prophet Joel says in the last days the Spirit will pour out upon all flesh. Since this has been on-going since the day of Pentecost the last days obviously began with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Again, Luke quoting from the prophet Joel says before "that great and notable day of the Lord come AND it shall come to pass! What shall come to pass? Is it the same time period as Pentecost? No! It is not, because here Luke writes this is the time when whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I hope you would agree that man calls upon the name of the Lord to be saved as they hear the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and turn to Christ in repentance believing.

We've established that Joel's prophesy, being fulfilled at Pentecost according to Luke is the Day of the Lord the prophets of old foretell would come, and the "last days" according to Luke. Since the Day of the Lord is also when men call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, it is clearly the Gospel age/time/era.

We know this Day of the Lord covers the whole age/era/time for the Gospel to be sent unto all the world, because Luke also quotes Joel saying the Day of the Lord that will come will not only be when men call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, but the Day of the Lord will also encompass the end of this Gospel age, when the sun turns dark and moon into blood when the Day (ONE) of the Lord is finished with the second coming of Christ to make everything new again and usher in eternity on the new earth.

Acts 2:20-21 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:31-32 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[DavidPT]

Acts 2:20-21 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:31-32 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Based on what the above texts state, let's ask ourselves some questions.

In Acts 2:20-21 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

In Joel 2:31-32 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Matthew 24 when does it state that the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light?
Answer: Immediately after great tribulation and prior to His 2nd coming and the gathering of His elect.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


When does Revelation 6 indicate the sun is darkened? Answer: During the 6th seal during the time of His wrath.

Does the entire gospel age, which you equate with the day of the Lord, involve His time of wrath? Why is Revelation 6 recording that the time of His wrath doesn't even begin until the little season recorded in the 5th seal is fulfilled first? Which means, how can the day of the Lord involve the entire NT church age if it doesn't even begin until after the sun goes dark first? And that when the sun goes dark, the 2nd coming is just right around the corner.

 

[rwb]

Based on what the above texts state, let's ask ourselves some questions.

In Acts 2:20-21 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

In Joel 2:31-32 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Matthew 24 when does it state that the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light?
Answer: Immediately after great tribulation and prior to His 2nd coming and the gathering of His elect.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When does Revelation 6 indicate the sun is darkened? Answer: During the 6th seal during the time of His wrath.

Does the entire gospel age, which you equate with the day of the Lord, involve His time of wrath? Why is Revelation 6 recording that the time of His wrath doesn't even begin until the little season recorded in the 5th seal is fulfilled first? Which means, how can the day of the Lord involve the entire NT church age if it doesn't even begin until after the sun goes dark first? And that when the sun goes dark, the 2nd coming is just right around the corner.

The whole New Covenant Gospel age is when the Day of the Lord commences in time and when the Day of the Lord shall be finished in ONE Day of the Lord when Christ returns again. The Day of the Lord that encompasses the New Covenant Gospel age involves TIME, likened by John a thousand years. In the fullness of TIME, likened to a thousand years the Day/age/era/time of the Lord will be finished in ONE Day of the Lord when He shall come again.

 

[wonderkins]

Based on what the above texts state, let's ask ourselves some questions.

In Acts 2:20-21 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

In Joel 2:31-32 when does it state the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood? Before the day of the Lord comes? Or after the day of Lord comes?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Matthew 24 when does it state that the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light?
Answer: Immediately after great tribulation and prior to His 2nd coming and the gathering of His elect.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


When does Revelation 6 indicate the sun is darkened? Answer: During the 6th seal during the time of His wrath.

Does the entire gospel age, which you equate with the day of the Lord, involve His time of wrath? Why is Revelation 6 recording that the time of His wrath doesn't even begin until the little season recorded in the 5th seal is fulfilled first? Which means, how can the day of the Lord involve the entire NT church age if it doesn't even begin until after the sun goes dark first? And that when the sun goes dark, the 2nd coming is just right around the corner.

Do you believe the sun, moon and stars literally go dark? Or is it symbolic?

Isaiah 13:10 uses the same language in reference to judgment on Babylon after they destroyed Jerusalem.

Joseph's dream in Genesis 37 is about the sun, moon and stars. But they represent Israel.

Point being that the Bible's speaking about sun, moon and stars isn't necessarily literal.

 

[keras]

Historical events have caused me to believe that most of the end times texts have already occurred.

I have read many historical books and studies. The fact is that very little of Bible prophecy has been fulfilled.

Point being that the Bible's speaking about sun, moon and stars isn't necessarily literal.

It is obvious the Josephs Dream was allegorical; it was a dream!
But the many mentions of changes to the actual sun and moon, are not.

I view the avoidance of clearly stated Prophesies, as a serious mistake, which simply leaves one in the dark about forthcoming dramatic events. 1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[DavidPT]

Do you believe the sun, moon and stars literally go dark? Or is it symbolic?

Actually, that is not relevant since what is relevant is chronology in this case. But to answer your question anyway, I'm assuming it's not meaning in a literal sense. Especially the fact it involves stars falling. Why would literal stars be falling out of the sky but the earth wouldn't be as well? How could there even be an earth remaining if it is getting bombarded with literal stars falling out of the sky? With things like that in mind, it is highly unlikely that these events are involving literal events, such as the sun literally going dark. Yet, it wouldn't surprise me if some Amils take those things literally, though. Based on how they take 2 Peter 3:10 to be involving the earth literally being engulfed in literal flames of fire during the day of the Lord.

 

[keras]

The prophets of Old prophesied about the Day of the Lord that would come in time. When you read how the prophets describe the Day of the Lord coming they almost always describe what will happen during His day that was coming with wrath and vengeance. But included along with the wrath and vengeance we also get glimpses of how the Day of the Lord the prophets foretell coming is a Day of worship and joy for the faithful.

That is because there are two Days of the Lord:
Sixth seal - This must be the next prophesied event, Rev. 6:17 ‘For the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand?’ It will be a worldwide judgement of fire, by the means of a massive CME sun strike, that will particularly affect the Middle East, destroying those nations and entities that attack the State of Israel, as described in Psalms 83. Isaiah 34:8

Then, several years later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, Revelation 16:17-24...the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ and chains Satan up. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

 

[rwb]

That is because there are two Days of the Lord:
Sixth seal - This must be the next prophesied event, Rev. 6:17 ‘For the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand?’ It will be a worldwide judgement of fire, by the means of a massive CME sun strike, that will particularly affect the Middle East, destroying those nations and entities that attack the State of Israel, as described in Psalms 83. Isaiah 34:8

Then, several years later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, Revelation 16:17-24...the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ and chains Satan up. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

It's not that there are two days of the Lord. There is one Day of the Lord that came when Messiah came to earth in time, then the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord when He comes again when time shall be no more. The prophets of old conflate the two appearances of the Day of the Lord, but through the New Testament we have greater understanding because we are living in the Day of the Lord, since Christ came, now we look for His Day to come again not in time, but when time, likened a thousand years are finished.

 

[wonderkins]

Actually, that is not relevant since what is relevant is chronology in this case. But to answer your question anyway, I'm assuming it's not meaning in a literal sense. Especially the fact it involves stars falling. Why would literal stars be falling out of the sky but the earth wouldn't be as well? How could there even be an earth remaining if it is getting bombarded with literal stars falling out of the sky? With things like that in mind, it is highly unlikely that these events are involving literal events, such as the sun literally going dark. Yet, it wouldn't surprise me if some Amils take those things literally, though. Based on how they take 2 Peter 3:10 to be involving the earth literally being engulfed in literal flames of fire during the day of the Lord.

Well maybe I was misunderstanding you. As a postmillenial I would basically say the same thing as you. Don't believe it to be literal either.