Day of the Lord

Douggg said:

The 2000 years is not called the great tribulation in the bible.

The 7 seals are about the 7 year 70th week. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is placed in the temple.

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The 1st 6 seals are about the 70 week. When Christ comes at the 6th seal for the pre wrath rapture......the wrath of God begins which is the 7th seal. The great tribulation does begin with the abomination of desolation.

Revealing Times said:

For you to suggest that NO METAPHORS are used in Revelation is silly brother. While we might disagree, you full well know the book of Revelation is full of Metaphors and Symbolism, so to suggest someone is making something up because you don't see it is way off the deep end. Am I making it up to say the Stars cast out of Heaven is Satan ? See my point ?

I explain in depth why I see it that way.



The Holy Spirit just gave me this about a little over an hour ago. Just like Rev. chapter 11 is all about the Two-witnesses, Rev. 12 is about the Dragon chasing the Woman, Rev. 13 is about the Beast and False Prophet and Rev. 17 is about the Harlot (False Religion). Likewise Rev. 14 has a theme also, I knew this but I have always missed one component in my thesis here. I often wondered why Jesus showed up with the 144,000 on Mt. Zion, I knew (IN MY OPINION) it was the Jews who Repented and came through the fire (the 1/3) but I wondered why they showed up with Jesus, then I understood it........It's THE HARVEST CHAPTER !! Ding, ding, ding !!

Jesus Gathers the Jews unto his Barn when he returns. He Harvests the Jews who REPENT at his Second Coming !! In verse 14 we see the Rapture of the Church when Jesus thrusts in his sickle whilst on a CLOUD mind you. And in verses 18-20 we see an Angel thrusts in his Sickle and Harvests the Wicked in the great winepress of the wrath of God !! And the blood came up to the horses bridles, in other words, the Wicked are Harvested at Armageddon.

Three Harvests are given unto us in Rev. chapter 14. God Harvests the Church, he then Harvest the Wicked and Gathers Israel into his barn. God Bless........

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Sorry, but the harvest of the CHURCH is history by chapter 14. This chapter is about the harvest during the 70th week.
First the firstfruits, as in the 144,000 Hebrews, then the harvest for the righteous (given as a prophecy, NOT happening right then) and finally the harvest for the wicked - also a prophecy looking ahead to the battle of Armageddon and perhaps the parable of the tares.

Choose Wisely said:

The 1st 6 seals are about the 70 week. When Christ comes at the 6th seal for the pre wrath rapture......the wrath of God begins which is the 7th seal. The great tribulation does begin with the abomination of desolation.

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Wake up, guys! The first 5 seals are church age - the 6th is the start of judgment.

Revealing Times said:

You are quoting a VISION of what John saw people describing, do you not get that ? They only UNDERSTAND AT THAT POINT what is going on. That is not relevant to when the Wrath starts.

So your posting tose same scriptures changes nothing brother.

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OF COURSE it is relevant. Did you just not read Isaiah chapter 2 and Joel chapter 2? They SAW what these chapters prophesied, so they KNOW the Day of His wrath has come. John almost copies from Isaiah chapter 2 word for word. And Isaiah chapter 2 is about the Day of the Lord. So I Joel 2. Therefore make no mistake: THE DAY (and God's wrath) begins right there with the earthquake at the 6th seal.

Revealing Times said:

So that is the ONLY THING that can be DESCRIBED as a GREAT TRIBULATION in your mind ? All because you learned it that way, Pssttt even though it doesn't FIT !! We must stick with what we learned, even though in actuality it's according to what one is describing as per to what GREAT TRIBULATION MEANS in reality. The Church that is being described was NEVER in the 70th week. The Church was in the 2000 year Church Age Tribulation. What is being described therefore is the Church, having bece the Bride, in Heaven, who came out of GREAT TRIBULATION......And that is indeed true, 2000 years worth of Martyrdom. GREAT JOB in this paragraph!

If I am speaking about a RAPTURED CHURCH (Check) that were Rapture pre 70th Week (Check), and Married the Lamb in Heaven (Check) and thus when John saw himself in the GREAT MULTITUDE in Heaven, and he asked the guy who they were, and they guy responds, these came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION why would one assume it means the 70th week troubles ?
Especially since at this time John has not yet even STARTED the 70th week.

Those who missed the Wedding call will be LOCKED OUT according to Jesus' own words !! Thus these are they that came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION would mean the LONGEST of two tribulation periods. The Church Age and the 70th Week. Now which is the GREATEST PERIOD ? The 2000 year Church Age no doubt is greater than the 7 year period of the latter.

So just because you always thought that is what it meant, doesn't mean that is what it meant. And the Church Age actually FITS !! The other can't be true, if you miss the Bridegrooms call you will not make the Wedding.

Just because there is a GREATEST TROUBLES EVER Period doesn't mean there can't be a period of time being spoken of as GREATER also........There are two ways to speak about things. We can speak about the SEVERITY of the troubles or the LENGTH of the troubles.

One can be of Greater Severity and one can be of Greater Length. Measurements don't have to be measured in only ONE WAY !! The Church Age Saints are the ONLY THING THAT FITS !!

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Just the two words, "great tribulation" was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He had to add more: this time would be greater than any time ever. Any time there are martyrs, it is great tribulation. It cannot get any greater for those who are martyred, for they cannot be killed twice. Good job here, Revealing Times.

Revealing Times said:

They are hiding from the Wrath of God. Nowhere in the entire bible can you show me a scripture that says Jesus will return at the 6th Seal brother.


That is why we are RAPTURED pre 70th week and that is why repentant Jews are PROTECTED. The Day of the Lord begins when Jesus opens the First Seal. Acts 2 is quoting Joel, and the Hebrew word for BEFORE means in the FACE OF or in the PRESENCE OF..........the Day of the Lord, like BEFORE A KING'S FACE etc. etc. Look it up, stop trusting the English Translations brother.

No they are not, look man, it's plain English right in your face and you miss it.

LOOK AT IT CLOSER !!
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NOWHERE? I will agree there are no verses for a coming AT the 6th seal. But if you understand Paul in 1 thes. 5, you will discover Paul's timing as a moment BEFORE the 6th seal. If you believe what is written,
WRATH begins at the 6th seal. These people that said THE DAY has started were right: Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 prove this. The 6th seal fulfills these two prophecies. Paul shows us that his rapture will come a moment before Wrath. The rapture then, PAUL'S rapture, will come a moment before wrath, and then THE DAY begins. Then perhaps 10 days later, he 7th seal starts the 70th week.

You are miles off on the first seal. God back and read chapter 5! YOu have been ignoring its message all this time. John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, proving the first seal to have been opened around 32 AD. It is the CHURCH with the GOSPEL.
The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age.

Choose Wisely said:

You are putting the tribulation period inside the wrath of God. The wrath of God starts with His coming at the 6th seal. The cosmic signs occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
Acts 2
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Gods people are not appointed to wrath.

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You are the one that insists the days of tribulation are before the 6th seal - when God and John put the trib from chapter 8 to chapter 16. In fact, GOD is the one that puts the 70th week inside the Day of the Lord. You should leave it where God put it. The DAY begins at the 6th seal, then the WEEK begins at the 7th, but the week ends at the 7th vial and the DAY continues.

ONE SET of cosmic signs appear before THE DAY as the sign for the DAY, while another set of signs happens after the trib and as a sign for HIS COMING. (TWO times the signs in the sun and moon will be seen - and they are different.) If John had shown this set, it would have been in Rev. 19. John did not see this set.

iamlamad said:

Wake up, guys! The first 5 seals are church age - the 6th is the start of judgment.

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You might look in the Rev 2 and Rev 3 for that. No seals have been opened.

Choose Wisely said:

Please don't speak in ignorance or post my quote showing I said this.

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Will you quit saying it? If you write of it, I will remind you of it. I was speaking with understanding. The truth is, seals 1 -5 are church age. They are NOT "the trib" or the 70th week.

iamlamad said:

This proves that the 144,000 are selected out of the 'vast multitude' of Rev 7:9 and it is them who spread 'the Eternal Gospel', not an angel as Revelation 14:6-7 metaphorically states.
Quote Keras
No it does not. Maybe in YOUR mind it does. There is no New Testament verse tying Isa. 66 to the 144,000. At least I have never seen such a verse. Perhaps it is your belief that needs correcting?

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It is obvious to everyone, excepting those whose beliefs are challenged, that Isaiah 66:19 describes the 144,000. And Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor to them.
If you dispute this truth, the you must show us what the [supposed] difference between the two groups is, who they are and what they do.

Douggg said:

The 2000 years is not called the great tribulation in the bible.

The 7 seals are about the 7 year 70th week. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is placed in the temple.

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2000 years is GREATER than 7 is it not ? Why do you desire to LIMIT God's vocabulary ? Because that has been a rock solid thought in your head like it was mine for 30 years, so it HAS TO BE TRUE, even though it isn't, that is why Jesus warned us about Men's Traditions. I understand, you have built your whole thesis already around it being the MARTYRS of the Tribulation period, but its not, so rework your theories brother. It is what it is. We should only want the truth, no matter how much we have to rework our thoughts and ideas !! RIGHT ?

Those are the Church who were RAPTURED, thus they have on white, those under the altar were SPECIFICALLY TOLD you must WAIT until your fellow brothers are killed in like manner as you were!! What does that say unto us Douggg ? It says they will have to REMAIN there until the Beast finishes his 42 months reign of terror, I know I told that unto you before, why does it not take brother ?

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are told they HAVE TO WAIT until all their brothers are killed in like manner as they were is FULFILLED. That means they must wait on the Beast to finish if 42 months of murder and mayhem. THESE are the ones JUDGED in Rev. 20:4 after Jesus returns with the Church (Rev. 7:9 is the Church in Heaven) in tow. They came out of the 2000 year Church Age, that is what the Rapture means brother. We thus have on White, but we are not told we must WAIT like they are. MORE PROOF NEEDED ? Let's look at Rev. 20:4 a little CLOSER !!

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

BOOM, you get it ? THESE in Rev. 20:4 are the ones that died DURING the Tribulation or 70th week period. ONLY THESE could have rejected the chance SERVE THE BEAST, he wasn't around until the final 3.5 years. Psttt these are the SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR that he killed !! The ones that refused to serve him, and laid down their lives for Christ. These are the ones that you imply are in Heaven in Rev. 7:9 with white robes on, but its just not the case brother. They are the Bride in Heaven in Rev. 7:9, those under the altar are JUDGED in Rev. 20:4.

So those that came out of the GREAT (2000>7) Tribulation can ONLY BE the Raptured Church brother.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but we cannot find "born again" anywhere in this passage. We can say they follow Jesus.
What do you make of this scripture?

Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

This verse really sounds as if the sealing WAS for their protection. Notice it is NOT the seal of the Holy Spirit in their spirit - which they would get if they were born again. It is a seal on their forehead.

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I would say that it means that that they are not allowed to hurt the grass, trees or any green thing but only those which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Since I understand the order of revelation I can look over in Rev 14 and see that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth before the wrath of God begins. I see the harvest at the end of Rev 14 and realize that that is the great multitude of Rev 7.

Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

The wrath begins.
Rev 14
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

iamlamad said:

Will you quit saying it? If you write of it, I will remind you of it. I was speaking with understanding. The truth is, seals 1 -5 are church age. They are NOT "the trib" or the 70th week.

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That's my point. Quit speaking in ignorance. Please show me where I have said the the tribulation is in Rev 8, 9, 10 or 11. I say the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and wrath is over in Rev 11. Then we get another view.

How is it that the vine is being cast in the wrath of God in Rev 14. Didn't wrath begin with the opening of the 7th seal?

Douggg said:

If them in Revelation 7 come out of "greater tribulation" - it would have said so.

It is not greater great tribulation either.

It is the souls of them who will die during the time the abomination is placed in the temple.

It is not the rapture saints, nor the resurrection of them in Christ that happens at the same time.

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Again, you are looking at the KJV.........Use common sense. Those under the altar are told they must WAIT until their brothers die in like manner as them..........that means they will be waiting 42 months. The Church is in HEAVEN FOR 7 YEARS !!

You allow the word that you have always thought it means to keep you from understanding truth.

The facts are the facts..........that is the Church as the Bride...........I know when we get to Heaven this will be explained in full living color on a 200 yard HD TV.

keras said:

It is obvious to everyone, excepting those whose beliefs are challenged, that Isaiah 66:19 describes the 144,000. And Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor to them.
If you dispute this truth, the you must show us what the [supposed] difference between the two groups is, who they are and what they do.

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Actually, I looked at many commentators and found ONE (1) that suggested this verse might be referring to the 144,000. Let's examine the context:

15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. This is about Armageddon.
16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many.
Again this is about Armageddon. This is LONG after the 144,000 are seen in heaven.

18 “For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. This is the gathering Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24. It is AFTER the entire 70th week.
19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.
"Escape" what? Of course, survive the 70th week. Notice how the next verse begins with "then?"
20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.
This is talking about the Millennial Kingdom. It therefore cannot be about the 144,000. They are sealed for their protection during the first half of the 70th week, then caught up to heaven at or near the midpoint of the week - as the firstfruits of Israel.

You can GUESS that Luke 10 is a precursor, but there is no scripture even hinting such a thing.

Therefore I disagree with you because the scriptures disagree with you.

Douggg said:

What you are trying to do is make Revelation 7, them coming out of the great tribulation, as a proof text for a pre-70th week timing of rapture. And jumping through hoops to do so.

The rapture may indeed happen pre-70th week or might not. But Revelation 7 is not them who have been raptured. It is their souls in heaven having died in Christ during the time that abomination of desolation is placed in the temple.

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Sorry, both of you are mistaken. Those under the altar are church age martyrs. 70th week martyrs will not have to ask "how long." They will KNOW they have only to wait out the 7 years. Stephen, for example, would have had NO IDEA how long the church age would go. That is why they asked. The answer given is a strong hint to the time of the rapture. They are told they must wait for the last or final martyr of those martyred as they were - as church age martyrs.

Douggg, the reasons I believe this great crowd without number is the church is many fold. First, I learned from 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's rapture would come a moment before graces turns to wrath: the start of the Day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath. In Revelation then, Paul's rapture must come in the same place: just before God's wrath begins.

Next, stop and think which group would be the biggest? Fifty generations of believers around the world: or a small amount of the believers martyred during the 70th week? OF COURSE the saints who have gone on would be the FAR bigger crowd.

Next, John has not even started the 70th week - much less arrived at the last half where the days of GT that JEsus spoke of would begin.

Next, there is NO HINT that these have died. There is no "jumping through hoops - it is just understanding the Word as it is written - changing nothing.

Choose Wisely said:

That's my point. Quit speaking in ignorance. Please show me where I have said the the tribulation is in Rev 8, 9, 10 or 11. I say the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and wrath is over in Rev 11. Then we get another view.

How is it that the vine is being cast in the wrath of God in Rev 14. Didn't wrath begin with the opening of the 7th seal?

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You only tells us "the trib" comes before the 6th seal. It is your ignornorance of the Word that you don't know that the "trib" or 70th week begins in chapter 8 and goes to chapter 16. You SHOULD know this - but you don't.

So your error - your rearranging - forcing 8 chapters of Revelation back in time to overlay the first 5 seals. And all because you just cannot believe God can show signs in the sun and moon TWICE Also because you equate a blood moon (seen) with a darkened moon (not seen).

Rev. 18 - the harvest with sickles - is PROPHECY of the soon to happen end of the week: the battle of Armageddon, the parable of the tares, and the sheep and goat judgment.

This is SO simple: God is STILL ANGRY in chapter 14, for His anger has been building as judgment after judgment has come, and people have still not repented.