Dave Hunt & TA McMahon on Divine Liturgy

[Rilian]

That's not fair I thought that we were #1, afterall we are the ones that are the harlot of Babylon and are being led by the anti-christ. What do you guys have that beats that?

Ethnic bake sales.

His main beef with Liturgy is its physicalness. This is very bad, according to Dave. In other words, Christianity should be nothing but a mind game? God apparently only cares about our brains.

This actually reminds me of something. The very leftward leaning literary critic Harold Bloom wrote a book back in the 90's called "The American Religion" (I think that was the title) about America becoming a post-Christian nation. The one thing I agreed with and thought was insightful in it, was his assertion which to paraphrase was that much of what passes for Christian religion in this country is essentially gnostic at its core. His point was mostly about it being highly individualized and focused on self realization and fulfillment. Dave's suspicion of matter I think is actually just another strand of this phenomenon and I think comes quite close to being blatant dualism.

 

[xenia]

Hi Rilian,

Yes, the "g" word (gnosticism) really does come to mind when people separate the physical from the spiritual. This is odd to me. It's as if they believe that the Israelites of the Old Testament were somehow primative people and needed physical things, like incense and the Ark of the Covenant and fancy robes for the priests. These physical things were needful for them because they were so backwards they couldn't understand the things of the Spirit without lots of visuals. Now, however, we Christians are so advanced, so spiritual that we don't need visuals. It's as if the human race is advancing towards a greater spirituality. We are so spiritual, y'know.

So, communion is just a symbol and the physicality of the elements are incidental. Jesus used wine? No matter- grape drink is ok. Everything becomes a mental exercise and everything becomes meaningless. My last year as an Evangelical was spent in virtual agnosticism because nothing in Christianity seemed real. It was all a mind game. I remember saying over and over to myself as I sat through services "This is all a mind game... this is all a mind game..."

-Xenia

 

[countrymousenc]

That's not fair I thought that we were #1, afterall we are the ones that are the harlot of Babylon and are being led by the anti-christ. What do you guys have that beats that?

I've heard that some of the latest "The real Christians are about to be secretly snatched through the ceiling" books have replaced the RCC with the OC as the world religion headed up by the anti-christ. Sorry, I'm afraid you've become outdated!

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

LOL!

 

[Oblio]

And Russia (a favorite major player of the end times according to dispensationalists) is the Third Rome

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

Wow...these guys just don't get it.

 

[jameseb]

"Bells and smells." How cute...er.

 

[nikephoros_spatharios]

Their hearts are hard and they don't realize that God delights in beautiful things and men delight in glorifying God with beautiful things. Their minds are stuck in artificial mind-body dichotomies.

The envoys reported: "When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here."

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

And Russia (a favorite major player of the end times according to dispensationalists) is the Third Rome

And the fourth will never come!

Yeah, I've read some of those articles. We're cool, the Book of Daniel is entirely about us!

 

[katherine2001]

Remember where Dave is coming from. Man and the physical world are totally depraved. There is nothing good in them. Remember, a lot of us used to be in that world. Thank God we aren't in that environment any longer. They don't know what they are missing.

Yes, it is terrible when the spiritual and the physical worlds are kept apart. That is why so many of them are frustrated. You can't get any help in how to actually live the Christian life, because the pastors and others don't have any idea how to do it themselves.

They'd better get used to the Orthodox liturgies now, because that is what's going to be going on in the Kingdom. If they don't learn to like them now, how are they going to handle them then? Of course, they may have to live through the Tribulation first--they haven't planned on that. At least we Orthodox and the RC have all the saints who've been martyred to give us an example of how we are to do that.

 

[xenia]

If they don't learn to like them now, how are they going to handle them then?

Wow, that exactly what I said to myself last Sunday upon leaving an especially wonderful Divine Liturgy. I said to myself- If anyone didn't like that, they aren't gonna like Heaven!

Love, Xenia

 

[ufonium2]

That's not fair I thought that we were #1, afterall we are the ones that are the harlot of Babylon and are being led by the anti-christ. What do you guys have that beats that?

It's all about appearances. You know on soap operas, how the bad guy always has the beard? Well, the Pope has no beard, he can't be the anti-Christ. He's also elderly, wears white, and is very friendly looking.

The Patriarchs have beards, wear big black hats and dark clothing, plus they are "ethnic." That's the total bad-guy package there. If you want to reclaim your end-times place of honor, it's gonna involve some makeovers.

 

[nicodemus]

We have Arabs at our churches so we're probably bad Americans too

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

It's all about appearances. You know on soap operas, how the bad guy always has the beard? Well, the Pope has no beard, he can't be the anti-Christ. He's also elderly, wears white, and is very friendly looking.

The Patriarchs have beards, wear big black hats and dark clothing, plus they are "ethnic." That's the total bad-guy package there. If you want to reclaim your end-times place of honor, it's gonna involve some makeovers.

I just got off the phone with the Pope. He's thinking about going with the goth style, do you think that will win us some points?

Also, he is thinking about growing his fingernails really long. You know, like those creepy Japanese/Chinese martial art villians.

 

[Rilian]

Now Cardinal Ratzinger just has to wear the joke T-shirt I sent him for his birthday that says "I'm With The Anti-Christ" and has a big arrow on it for the picture to be complete.

 

[Servant of the Kingdom]

We're #1! We're #1! We're #1!

Your dreams!!!

Now seriously

Your dreams!!!

Now seriously

They are taking you seriously. well done!

 

[Michael G]

But first, you have to do the hokey-pokey
and turn yourself around,
that's what it's all about!

Not to side track, but do you know what the historical context of the hokey pokey is? IT is pretty disturbing.

 

[Michael G]

The scary thing about these people are that many of the heresies they are spouting are not new things. They are just the same old ancient heresies which Orthodoxy dealt with in the 7 Ecumenical Councils, only under new skin so that they look fresh.

 

[Michael G]

The scary thing about these people are that many of the heresies they are spouting are not new things. They are just the same old ancient heresies which Orthodoxy dealt with in the 7 Ecumenical Councils, only under new skin so that they look fresh. And the rest of the stuff they spout which is not heresy, is just plain sheer silly stupidity and ignorance. Sorry about the double post there, there was a computer error on this end.

 

[Suzannah]

Not to side track, but do you know what the historical context of the hokey pokey is? IT is pretty disturbing.

No...DO tell all!!!!