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Date of Revelation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Just The Facts, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello

    Partial Preterist post everywhere trying to convince all that it is all about the destruction of Jerusalem. What they rarely say unless pressed, is that their whole theory kind of hinges on the book of Revelation not being penned in 96 AD as 99.9% of Scholars believe but is from an earlier date of 66 AD. So therefore it could be all about the future destruction of Jerusalem.

    What they simple ignore is that this book is written to seven Gentile Churches in Asia Minor about what was going to happen to them and their churches their cities from that date through the years.

    Preterists always talk about Internal Evidence etc etc. SO lets look at it.

    9: I John, who also am your brother,[red] and companion in tribulation, [/red]and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos,

    Companion in Tribulation well we know that John suffered in the Second Pagan persecution not the First so that puts this statement at the earliest in 81 AD. The Roman Historian Dio Cassius wrote that Domitian exiled people to Islands. He mentions it multiple times in his section on Domitian he also confirms that at his death exiles were released. Domitian is said to have banished another believer Flavia Domitilla who was banished in AD 95 to the island of Pandeteria. She was also released by Nerva at the same as John. Machining exactly what has been stated by Early Apostolic Fathers as to when and where Revelation was written.

    14]"And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: `The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.[15]"`I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot![16] So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.[17] For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

    Laodicea was the Capital of the Area a Banking Center, Clothing Industry, Eye Medicine and one of the First Churches but all was destroyed by an massive Earthquake in about 62 AD. It also destroyed the aquifer which brought water to the city from a cold underground section the Lycus river. The Earthquake rerouted this underground aquifer so they chose to take the water from a hot spring in the high country down a five mile aquifer which meant the water was Luke Warm by the time it reached the city. Thus Laodicea had lukewarm water. This aquifer took over 15 years to complete. So Laodicea was not Luke warm till at least 75- 77AD. The area was the wool supplier of the Empire and of dye. Hence Johns reference to them saying "you are lukewarm" " you are poor" "you are blind" "you are naked" What John says is you are poor you are naked and blind. You think you have everything without Salvation you have nothing. This city had nothing in 66 AD it was a pile of ruble not even partially rebuilt yet.

    The big one Preterits point to is the measuring of the Temple. Which is absolute nonsense. Ezekiel is told to rise and measure the Temple when there was no Temple. Daniel also says the Temple will be destroyed, he too wrote this when there was no Temple. This particular argument is just plain nonsense. I guess that means Ezekiel and Daniel must have been written after Herod rebuilt the Temple.

    Now the preterist always say Daniel 9 is about 70 AD on this point I agree with them. But this does not back their date for revelation in fact it shows the Latter date must be true.

    here is Revelation

    [15] The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.

    Above the Devil tries to Destroy Christianity by wiping it out at the Source Jerusalem he sends a Flood out after the Woman IE the True Church.

    Here is Daniel 9 on how Jerusalem's end will come

    26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

    As we can see Jerusalem's end comes with a Flood this is a direct reference in Revelation to the Destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel. Now what we need to pay attention to is what tense John is Speaking in. IT IS ALL PAST TENSE.

    The Saints Loved not their life unto death .........The Serpent Poured out not will pour out ...............

    [16] But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.

    Now The Dragon Brings the Fourth kingdom down on WHO.........

    [17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    So the Dragon Uses the Fourth Kingdom to Persecute Christians. All of the Persecution the deadly wound the Two Horned Lamb all happen after Jerusalem is Destroyed and is all part of the Dragons persecution of Christians it has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem Judea or The Jews.

    Now I am going to stop here because if I keep going this post will be so long no one will read it.

    Should anyone require further proof I will be happy to continue.
     
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  2. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

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    Yes, Revelation is a history. Or so I believe. John the Revelator didn't tell us anything new. The prophecy he penned served to edify the fledgling church as it endured the tribulation. Or even after it had endured it.
     
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  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Your criticism of preterism is too simplistic. I don't mean that to be insulting in any way at all.

    The date of composition actually has no real relevance, as the writer is told to write "what you have seen, what is, and what is to come". Not everything was to come.

    The witer states "there are seven kings. Five have fallen...". Those kings were those emperors of Rome who claimed the title of Caesar. Five had "fallen", meaning they had already died. That places, not the writer, but the story, during the reign of the sixth Caesar.

    Anyone with a good familiarity of the language used by the writer, who reads The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus will instantly recognize the events of the Revelation as the same written about by Josephus. The writer puts a spin on the events by describing them using the language and events of the old testament. All the plagues of Egypt are found in the Revelation, though it takes some effort on the part of the writer to include the plague of frogs. And the writer organizes the story in the form of the ancient Jewish temple liturgy.

    The sea turns to blood, men seek death but cannot find it, and "hailstones" the weight of a talent are all found in Josephus' account of the Roman invasion of Jerusalem of Matthew 24 and also in Luke. The war lasted seven years, and "time and times and half a time" through it, at "mid tribulation" the temple was destroyed by the Romans. Not one stone was left one upon the other. And where the eagles gathered, there was the corpse.
     
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  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    There is a similar thread on that:

    Partial Preterism and dating revelation

    And here you can view sources on the dating of Revelation. Hope this helps

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/dating-of-revelation/

    Preterism and the Date of Revelation

    But if none of these prophecies were designed to be completed till long after their death, those persons were not immediately concerned with them, and the author would surely not have said that they were blessed in reading prophecies of which the time was at hand, if those prophecies were not to be fulfilled till after the lapse of many ages”

    WHEN WAS THE BOOK OF REVELATION WRITTEN?
    About A.D. 95.
    51% | Before A.D.70 38% | Other 2% | Don’t Know 10%

    “I realize the Covenant Theology Preterist group will select before A.D. 70, but the Book of Revelation was written by John on the isle of Patmos in A.D. 95. I have read the preterist view point and find the scholarship very lacking. The Dispensational, futurist view of Bible prophecy is correct. There is plenty of scholarship to prove it.” (Armageddonbooks Prophecy Poll)

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/Dating/Early/index.html
    Apocalypse: Early Date Advocates

    Henry Cowles : The Book of Revelation | F.W. Farrar : Dating The Book of Revelation | Thomas B. Slater - Dating the Apocalypse to John | Gonzalo Rojas-Flores The Book of Revelation and the First Years of Nero’s Reign
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Where did you get this statistic from? Do you have a source for it?

    What source are you using that it took 15 years to complete the aquifer after the earthquake?
     
  6. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    Written to Gentile churches? They must have had a strong understanding to the parallels John makes with the OT.

    It seems to be a consensus of people to think that if a church is outside the realm of Roman Judea, it is likely a Gentile body of believers. Many early Christians were Jews in the dispersion through Asia, Italia, etc, where they housed churches in their converted synagogues. The book of Acts gives us a glimpse of that...
     
  7. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    Unless you think that the New Heaven and New earth have been fulfilled you may want to delete your past tense argument above.

    Rev. 21 -

    "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,"

    Written in the past tense. Why because the vision was in the past tense not the individual events in that vision.

    I don't hold to preterism but this is not a sound argument above.
     
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  8. timtams

    timtams Member

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    You omitted to mention a few facts:

    1. The persecution mentioned by Dio Cassius and Roman historians was directed against the Roman aristocracy and took place in the 90s.

    2. Any Christian among them belonged to the Roman aristocracy. John didn't.

    3. It should be noted that Pandateria is off the coast of Italy.
     
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  9. timtams

    timtams Member

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    The water was never piped in from the river and the problem with lukewarm water was a permanent one, not one that lasted a few years.

    "The site had one disadvantage: being determined by the road-system, it lacked a sufficient and permanent supply of good water. Water was piped to the city from hot springs some distance S, and probably arrived lukewarm."
    The New Bible Dictionary

    I would expect someone with your user name to do better than this.
     
  10. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    The OP's argument is very weak and bears no real substance as I read it. There are strong arguments as to why Revelation was written much earlier than 95AD...a date which is primarily that of futurist theology.

    One of the huge issues is...why would John write Revelation and not mention that the Jerusalem Temple had been destroyed? John was there as Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, as Mark states in Mark 13:3, yet as he penned Revelation there's no mention that this monumental event prophesied by Jesus had come to pass already..something I find it highly unlikely that John would do that based on the significance of the temple to Jews alone.

    In Revelation 11, the measuring of the temple is mentioned. We know it's a historical fact the temple was destroyed in 70AD. Why is John writing in 95AD about measuring a temple that hasn't been built yet knowing it had already been destroyed?

    Also in Revelation 11:19, The temple of God in heaven is opened, and Jesus (Who calls Himself the temple) is the one who opened it buy His death, burial, and resurrection...ascending back to the Father afterwards.
     
  11. timtams

    timtams Member

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    1. Why would he have mentioned that the Jerusalem temple was destroyed? It was written to gentiles about the future. You could turn this argument around: If it was written before AD 70, why doesn't it prophesy the destruction of the temple, as Mark 13:3 does?

    2. The temple is not the temple in Jerusalem. That's like arguing that the temple must have been standing when Ezekiel wrote because he measured it. In neither case is the physical temple being referred to. Further proof? It says that only the outer court would be given to the gentiles to trample, but the fact is, the entire temple complex, including the sanctuary, was destroyed by the Romans. It can't be the same one.
     
  12. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That Revelation is written to Gentiles is a real stretch when in it's opening verse it says it's written to Christs' bondservants. They would obviously be Jews and Gentiles since we know God's people are of every nation tribe kindred and tongue. John would mention it because it urther shows Jesus to be Lord, based on that Olivet Discourse prophecy which came to pass *if* John wrote Revelation in 95AD, because that tremendous prophecy is fulfilled, once again showing Jesus as Son of God and the messiah. The question to you is what other temple could it be? Do you recall the "two witnesses" and the "two olive trees"? Try Zechariah 4.

    Really? What temple do you know that was called "the temple of God" other than the Jerusalem temple?
    Read the passage further. The two witnesses should immediately bring to mind Zechariah 4 which refers to the rebuilding of the temple by Zerubbabel and Joshua in Ezra. The measuring of the temple is for it's destruction as worship at the temple has ended with Christs' death and ascension. God left that temple when Jesus died!

    At the end of Revelation you have reign of Christ beginning. The temple in heaven is open because Jesus is the temple, He has become the High Priest. Everything in the tabernacle/temple refers to Jesus! Try Hebrews 9:11-27.

    This is the Jerusalem temple because the very clues given to it's rebuilding by Zerubbabel and Joshua.

    Much more could be said.
     
  13. timtams

    timtams Member

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    There would have been Jews in the churches of Asia, but they would have largely been Gentile. If it's the temple in Jerusalem, how is it that it says that God would preserve the sanctuary and only give the outer court to be trodden down? The temple in Jerusalem was completely destroyed.
     
  14. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    It doesn't say God preserve the sanctuary, it says "measure" the temple. The temple is about to be destroyed...that temple is part of the Old Covenant. Christ and the church is the temple under the New Covenant. There's no need for a temple...did you read Hebrews 9? It's pretty clear why the temple doesn't matter anymore.

    Do you not get that the treading under foot the holy city in the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus said it pretty clear in Luke 21:24!
     
  15. timtams

    timtams Member

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    Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months


    it says he is not to measure the outer court because it's given to the gentiles but that he is to measure the inner court. Are you saying the inner was or wasn't trodden down?
     
  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    This is a temple layout:

    Jerusalem Temple Diagram Unique Jerusalem Temple Layout - Abdpvtltd.com

    The outer court is not the temple it's outside the temple. Do you not understand only Levites were allowed in the temple proper? That should be one way you understand this is the Jerusalem temple.
    Recall King Uzziah being struck with leprosy because he entered the OT temple
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  17. timtams

    timtams Member

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    "Just the facts" seems to have disappeared.
     
  18. DaDad

    DaDad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, he is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]
    __________________________________________________________
    [1]Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392

    Following your doctrine, John is liar. However, History makes your doctrine the lie. Perhaps there is a solution upon which both Scripture and History can both agree! :)

    DD
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  19. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Sir I do not take kindly to being called a liar. Just so you know.
     
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