Darwinism: Science or philosophy?

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00
Man, Blader, that's the photo i mentioned. Let us reason here:

1. If Hitler was an atheist, a photo like the ones above would turn a portion of the weakly Christians to him.

Why?

2. If Hitler was a Christian, why would he want to be photographed in such an obvious manner and have the photos widely distributed?

Why not? Bush does it.

It makes sense that Adolf Hitler was a hard-core atheist. I can't help but say that anyone who believes the opposite from these photos must be a total sucker. And i have an island for sale in the Indian ocean.
: [/B]

Why does it make sense that Hitler was an atheist? Because he murdered millions of Jews?

That's such a balanced view.

Let's see:

If thinking that because Hitler goes to Church, then Hitler is a Christian, makes someone a "total sucker"....

Then thinking that because Mao doesn't go to Church, he must be an atheist, makes someone a "total sucker" as well?

Basically, your above argument boils down to:

"I don't think Hitler's a Christian."

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
So now you're saying that quotes from Hitler can't be trusted? Funny how you guys were trying to use quotes to prove that he's NOT a Christian, yet when the dice rolls right back in your face, it's no longer a valid source? How convenient.

Blader, a speech is never hidden in a dark closet, but given to the public. Hitler wrote his book, Mein Kampf, in prison before he came to power. It is like his personal diary -- where he spilled the true contents of his soul.

Do you see the difference? Speeches can say whatever you need when the time comes. This particular one was aimed at attracting Christians. Mein Kampf shows Hitler's true side. By the way, as far as i know, Russia still bans Mein Kampf and all nazi literature (i'm glad, as nazism was condemned internationally by the Nuremberg trials).

You guys can try to spin it however you want, but that "As a Christian" speech by itself pretty much seals the deal in any reasonable person's mind. The only refutal anyone could come up with is: "When Hitler says he's a Christian, he's lying. When Hitler says he's not a Christian, he's telling the truth."

Blader, i hope you actually take into account what i'm saying. When Hitler says two opposing things from two different sources, i want to look at the sources to see which one would be more honest.

 

 

[Christian Soldier]

How do you know Hitler really made that 1922 speech you claim he did? Does a voice recording exist of it? Fake Hitler speeches and quotes come a dime a dozen. Give us PROOF!

My quote is from 1925, which is LATER. I can prove Hitler said it, because it's in Mein Kampf. You can't prove SQUAT.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Blader, a speech is never hidden in a dark closet, but given to the public. Hitler wrote his book, Mein Kampf, in prison before he came to power. It is like his personal diary -- where he spilled the true contents of his soul.

Do you see the difference? Speeches can say whatever you need when the time comes. This particular one was aimed at attracting Christians. Mein Kampf shows Hitler's true side. By the way, as far as i know, Russia still bans Mein Kampf and all nazi literature (i'm glad, as nazism was condemned internationally by the Nuremberg trials).

Funny. I always thought books were written for the public too.

Blader, i hope you actually take into account what i'm saying. When Hitler says two opposing things from two different sources, i want to look at the sources to see which one would be more honest.

 

You seemed to have missed a bit in my reply. I wrote:

Here's about a hundred quotes from Mein Kampf, the same book CS took his quote from:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

All of those quotes support the fact that Hitler was not an atheist.

The both seem pretty honest to me. Of course, I suspect that if Hitler ever gave a speech to atheists, that speech is automatically considered "honest."

 

[blader]

Originally posted by Christian Soldier
How do you know Hitler really made that 1922 speech you claim he did? Does a voice recording exist of it? Fake Hitler speeches and quotes come a dime a dozen. Give us PROOF!

Getting desperate, are we? Does a voice recording of Mein Kampf exist? They're both text. Why do you accept one but not the other? In any case, give me a minute, I'll see what I can do.

My quote is from 1925, which is LATER. I can prove Hitler said it, because it's in Mein Kampf. You can't prove SQUAT.

Were you there when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf?

 

[blader]

Here is the full text of the speech Hitler gave on April 12, 1922. The below page is from the Hitler Historical Museum.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/04-12-22.html

"The Hitler Historical Museum is a non-biased, non-profit museum devoted to the study and preservation of the world history related to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Party. True to its role as an educational museum, these exhibits allow for visitors to understand and examine historical documents and information for themselves. "

Here is the book the speech was quoted from, by Norman Baynes:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849011078/thesecularweb/103-0472192-2110259

What other proof do you seek?

Let me guess: if I can't come up with a voice recording, then Hitler must never have said the entire speech, huh? And if I can come up with a voice recording, how do you know it's really Hitler and not some impersonator? Ad infinitum. Some rebuttal.

 

[blader]

Also, in response to "Hitler's Secret Conversations:"

Hitler's Table Talk

Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.

The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."

But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:

1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)

2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.

4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.
www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Still nothing refuting Hitler's Christianity. Sorry.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
Why?

What's your favorite sports team? Let's say you like the University of Oregon football team. Let's say you meet a stranger who you think could be a dangerous man. You start talking with him and he says his favorite team are the Oregon Ducks. You will feel like you could trust this person because you and he share an interest. It's more like this in terms of faith in God.

Why not? Bush does it.

I don't think i'm behind the times at all, but i have yet to see a picture of Bush praying. See, cameras and reporters don't follow the president into Church, because that is his private life. If they did, like they did with Hitler, then some might think that they have an ulterior motive.

Why does it make sense that Hitler was an atheist? Because he murdered millions of Jews?

Yes. The Bible says that the Jewish people are the children of God. They are the chosen people by blood. God will avenge the blood of every person murdered, but Jews especially. A Christian in his right mind won't murder anyone, much less a Jew.

If thinking that because Hitler goes to Church, then Hitler is a Christian, makes someone a "total sucker"....

Don't butcher my words, buddy. Deducing from pictures clearly and specifically designed for the sole purpose of propaganda is being a total sucker.

Then thinking that because Mao doesn't go to Church, he must be an atheist, makes someone a "total sucker" as well?

You will see them by their actions.

Honestly, you can't decide which to trust? Media sources gathered by a government with a specific agenda, or the honest thoughts and ideas of Hitler?

 

[blader]

In response to your, "because Hitler killed Jews, he's not a Christian" argument:

That doesn't explain why you think he's an atheist.


Your other arguments are just like the "no atheists in foxholes" thread. "I don't think Hitler's a Christian, so therefore Hitler's not a Christian, despite all of his speeches, writings, and photos." "I don't think there are atheists in foxholes, so therefore there are no atheists in foxholes, despite the numerous individual testimonies saying that they themselves WERE atheists in foxholes."

Basically, it boils down to: any evidence that shows Hitler is a Christian, is a lie, because I don't believe it. Of course, you don't have a problem accepting evidence from these very same sources that show otherwise.

Since you take "Mein Kampf" to be "honest thoughts and ideas" of Hitler, then please explain to me the link to 100 or so quotes supporting Hitler's theism in my above quotes.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You still have not proven that Hitler made that alleged 1922 speech. Anybody could have written that text on the website.

Mein Kampf is proven to have been written by Hitler, and the quote there is from 1925. So even if the 1922 speech were genuine, it's obvious Hitler changed his mind in the ensuing three years.

Also, as of 1922, Hitler was serving as the chief propaganda officer for the Nazi Party. I suppose you're going to try to tell me that politicians always tell the truth and their true feelings in all of their speeches!

Just because I can't produce a quote where Hitler specifically renounces his Christianity is irrelevant, especially if he wasn't a Christian to begin with! He would have nothing to renounce.

I can't produce a quote of Lenin, Stalin, Marx or Osama bin Laden denying being Christians---that doesn't make them Christians! Your logic is pathetic.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by Christian Soldier
You still have not proven that Hitler made that alleged 1922 speech. Anybody could have written that text on the website.

So you're down to denying that Hitler never even said that? Despite the speech's presence in a collection of his speeches in print? Despite the fact that it can be found and referenced in more than one online source?

The EXACT same speech is present in a printed collection, published by Oxford University in 1942! It's not some random internet article. You can find it yourself in the library to verify. The desperation present in this line of argument is staggering.

And you haven't proven that he wrote Mein Kampf yet. (Not that I deny that Hitler wrote it). This is pointless.

Mein Kampf is proven to have been written by Hitler, and the quote there is from 1925. So even if the 1922 speech were genuine, it's obvious Hitler changed his mind in the ensuing three years.

Proven how? The speech I quoted was proven to be written by Hitler. What of it?

In any case, here's a big list of quotes from Mein Kampf proving that he's a Christian:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Also, as of 1922, Hitler was serving as the chief propaganda officer for the Nazi Party. I suppose you're going to try to tell me that politicians always tell the truth and their true feelings in all of their speeches!

So why do you think Hitler was telling the truth in Mein Kampf?

Just because I can't produce a quote where Hitler specifically renounces his Christianity is irrelevant, especially if he wasn't a Christian to begin with! He would have nothing to renounce.

Hitler would disagree with that. =)

I can't produce a quote of Lenin, Stalin, Marx or Osama bin Laden denying being Christians---that doesn't make them Christians! Your logic is pathetic.

Can you produce a quote of them CLAIMING they are Christians? I didn't think so. I think you need to examine your own logic.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
Here is the full text of the speech Hitler gave on April 12, 1922. The below page is from the Hitler Historical Museum.

Adolf wasn't even taken seriously in 1922. Almost two years after this "great speech," he attempted to overthrow the republican party by hopping on a table and firing his pistol into the ceiling. I'd doubt anyone even bothered to record the text of the speech of such a clown.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:

Don't fuzzy-talk your way out of this. The quotes Christian Soldier gave mention "Christianity," not "organized" or "disorganized Christianity." If Hitler had been a Christian, why would he curse Christianity the way he did.

1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann) [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, now let's see you prove that this took place. Saying that editing and hearsay took place is just hearsay!

2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations. [/B][/QUOTE]

How do we know that from just several documents? I haven't read Mein Kampf comletely -- have you? We can't know for sure... unless you just copied this from some other site.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity. [/B][/QUOTE]

Since Germany was dominantly a Christian nation at the time, denouncing Christ would mean Hitler's ticket to kick-outville. Think, Blader.

4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.
www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm[/B][/QUOTE]

I guess you agree with Hitler's views, right? You decided which ones are "good" Christians and which ones "bad?" Man, that's scary.

Still nothing refuting Hitler's Christianity. Sorry. [/B][/QUOTE]

How do you disprove something that never existed? The burden of proof is on proving his Christian faith, or proving his atheism.

 

[blader]

Don't fuzzy-talk your way out of this. The quotes Christian Soldier gave mention "Christianity," not "organized" or "disorganized Christianity." If Hitler had been a Christian, why would he curse Christianity the way he did.

First, I didn't write any of the post you replied to. To answer your question: I don't know. I'm not a Christian. All I know is that Hitler considered himself a Christian.

Yes, now let's see you prove that this took place. Saying that editing and hearsay took place is just hearsay!

Point taken.

How do we know that from just several documents? I haven't read Mein Kampf comletely -- have you? We can't know for sure... unless you just copied this from some other site.

Uh, actually, I DID copy this from other site. You should have known this if you bothered going to the source that I referenced in the same post.

And yes, I HAVE read Main Kampf completely. And the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," which is significantly longer in length.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity. [/B]

And you're telling ME to "think?" So it's okay to "curse" Christianity, which you said he did in this very same source of conversation, and the German people are all fine and dandy with that, but "denounce Christ," and it's "outsville?" Think, alex.

I guess you agree with Hitler's views, right? You decided which ones are "good" Christians and which ones "bad?" Man, that's scary.

Before you tremble in fear, first please consider the possibility that you guessed wrong.

How do you disprove something that never existed? The burden of proof is on proving his Christian faith, or proving his atheism.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00


Adolf wasn't even taken seriously in 1922. Almost two years after this "great speech," he attempted to overthrow the republican party by hopping on a table and firing his pistol into the ceiling. I'd doubt anyone even bothered to record the text of the speech of such a clown.

Almost a year ago, in July 29th, 1921, Hitler was made Fuhrer of the Nazi party. This was only because about two weeks before that, Hitler tried to resign from the Nazi party. The party leaders knew that if Hitler left, the Nazi party would be no more. Hitler only came back when he was granted dictatorial powers with the title of 'Fuhrer', and that happened on July 29th. I don't think that's what I'd call not "even taken seriously."

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
So you're down to denying that Hitler never even said that? Despite the speech's presence in a collection of his speeches in print? Despite the fact that it can be found and referenced in more than one online source?

It seems that you're set on the idea that any quote from Hitler which attacks Christianity is a fraud. Any quote supporting your view must be true.

The EXACT same speech is present in a printed collection, published by Oxford University in 1942! It's not some random internet article. You can find it yourself in the library to verify. The desperation present in this line of argument is staggering.

Consider for a moment that all the quotes we all gave are legitimate. But they are completely contradictory at times. This means that either some of the quotes are fraud, or that Hitler is a doggone liar. What kind of a Christian is that?

And you haven't proven that he wrote Mein Kampf yet. (Not that I deny that Hitler wrote it). This is pointless.

Yes, it's pointless.

Proven how? The speech I quoted was proven to be written by Hitler. What of it?

In any case, here's a big list of quotes from Mein Kampf proving that he's a Christian:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

I looked at that. About three have a source, and one of them being the one you used above (1922 speech).

So why do you think Hitler was telling the truth in Mein Kampf?

Yeah, i know. It's only a book that is prohibited completely in some countries. Why would they ban an illegitimate source?

Hitler would disagree with that. =)

Yes, but Elvis Presley would agree completely. What makes you think you know a dead man's thoughts, Blader?

Can you produce a quote of them CLAIMING they are Christians? I didn't think so. I think you need to examine your own logic.

I can. You just need two things: a personal computer with internet connection, and the ability to keep a straight face. The second one came in handy to those nazis in charge of proclaiming Hitler's Christianity.

 

[alexgb00]

Originally posted by blader
Almost a year ago, in July 29th, 1921, Hitler was made Fuhrer of the Nazi party. This was only because about two weeks before that, Hitler tried to resign from the Nazi party. The party leaders knew that if Hitler left, the Nazi party would be no more. Hitler only came back when he was granted dictatorial powers with the title of 'Fuhrer', and that happened on July 29th. I don't think that's what I'd call not "even taken seriously."

"Führer" just means "leader." This doesn't imply that he was ruler of the nation yet. Hitler only became chancellor in 1933, about 12 years after the above event. Being called the leader of the nazi party at that time was like being called Bob Homberson, leader of the cubist party.

You overestimate Hitler's importance in the 20's.

 

[blader]

Originally posted by alexgb00

It seems that you're set on the idea that any quote from Hitler which attacks Christianity is a fraud. Any quote supporting your view must be true.

When have I stooped to claim that the quotes you guys provided me don't even EXIST? When did I deny that Hitler said something that contradicted my view?

How about this: I don't consider the quotes you guys provided frauds at all. Stop accusing me of the very things you yourself are guilty of.

On the other hand, it seems the exact thing you're accusing me of is far more applicable to yourself.

Consider for a moment that all the quotes we all gave are legitimate. But they are completely contradictory at times. This means that either some of the quotes are fraud, or that Hitler is a doggone liar. What kind of a Christian is that?

A Christian that isn't perfect? Seems the same as every other Christian to me. Or do Christians not lie?

I looked at that. About three have a source, and one of them being the one you used above (1922 speech).

Try having the patience to read past the first page. The rest of the page is filled with quotes, ALL from Mein Kampf.

Yeah, i know. It's only a book that is prohibited completely in some countries. Why would they ban an illegitimate source?

Which countries? And why?

Yes, but Elvis Presley would agree completely. What makes you think you know a dead man's thoughts, Blader?

What makes you think that I think I know a dead man's thoughts?

I can reasonably infer what he thought when he was alive though, from his own words, Alex.

I can. You just need two things: a personal computer with internet connection, and the ability to keep a straight face. The second one came in handy to those nazis in charge of proclaiming Hitler's Christianity. [/B]

Despite the fact the very same speech was published in 1942...

What would you say about the above argument? Oh yes:

Originally posted by alexgb00

It seems that you're set on the idea that any quote from Hitler which supports Christianity is a fraud. Any quote supporting your view must be true.

 

[blader]

Alex: I'm tired of this. I think I've made my point. Feel free to continue rebutting if you like. I will be sleeping now.

Good night to you, alex!

 

[Bender]

If we're going to use Table Talk as evidence then we should look at quotes such as these:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a harlot-- of a harlot and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76]

Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 143]

It seems to me he dispised what Christianity had become under the Catholic church. He never attacks Christ. That's probably why he was an admirer of Martin Luther. 

Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language! - Hitler Table-Talk [p. 9]

Hitler was a big fan of Martin Luther. Anyone here read "The Jews and their Lies" by him?

We don't want to educate anyone in atheism. -Hitler Table-Talk [p. 6]

An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)... -Hitler Table-Talk [p. 59]

Hitler wasn't an atheist. He killed many communists in concentration camps. He was more likely a theist with his own unique(warped) version of Christianity.