Darwinism = Eugenics And Racism

[Chalnoth]

So, is anyone who says they're agnostic actually an atheistic agnostic or something?

Oh, there are agnostic theists as well. Some people admit that they do not or cannot know whether or not a god exists, but still believe one does. I think most tend towards agnostic atheist, though.

 

[The Bellman]

I was going to side with Richard for a sec, but it looks like you are right.
Rich and I were thinking of definition #2, while you are talking about definition #1. Now, where do Dualists fit on this scale?

I'm sorry, I don't understand either your point or your question. Could you rephrase?

 

[The Bellman]

So, is anyone who says they're agnostic actually an atheistic agnostic or something?

No, a person who is agnostic admits he doesn't know. He can be a theist or an atheist - he can believe or not believe. Agnosticism relates to knowledge, not belief.

 

[Lucretius]

The scale goes:

Theist — Agnostic Theist — Agnostic Atheist — Agnostic Theist

Some like to argue that there is a category in the middle for someone who thinks it is equiprobable for both God to exist, and to not exist, and thus takes neither position. I don't really know if a lack of a position on this list counts as a position on it?

 

[Loudmouth]

I wouldn't know, regardless, I wouldn't take anything as absolute truth from skeptic.com. The source used for the quote is "(cited by Wilhelm Niemoller in Kampi und Zeugnis der bekennenden Kirche — Struggle and Testimony of the Confessing Church, p. 526. and Cochrane)"

From reading the article, I see that the quote has been used in Time magazine.

Time Magazine, December 23, 1940 (page 38).1 “The best tribute to the spirit of Germany’s Christians comes from a Jew and an agnostic (Time, Sept. 23) — the world’s most famous scientist, Albert Einstein,”

LM, do you have access to this? "Unpublished letter, Einstein Archives, item number 58-548."

The evidence for me is that the quote can not be found in the The Expanded Quotable Einstein, THE collection of Einstein quotes. Additionally, there is a litter in the Einstien archives which directly states that this quote was a gross mischaracterization of what he said.

ABE: the letter can be found as part of the online Einstein archives
http://www.alberteinstein.info/db/ViewDetails.do?DocumentID=31801

Unfortunately they haven't digitized it yet.

 

[DrkSdBls]

Just an aside here - yes, you are. Everybody is an atheist or a theist. Basically, 'atheist' means 'not a theist'. You must be one of the two.

I just knew I was going to trigger this from somebody.

But No, I am neither Theist nor Atheist in the regard that I do not "Believe" in your definition of God.

The Question of Belief is not even an Issue for me. It's a Philosophical Stance, not a Matter of Belief.

If you can't understand, don't feel left out. You're not the first.

The scale goes:

Theist — Agnostic Theist — Agnostic Atheist — Agnostic Theist

Some like to argue that there is a category in the middle for someone who thinks it is equiprobable for both God to exist, and to not exist, and thus takes neither position. I don't really know if a lack of a position on this list counts as a position on it?

So, where in that scale would someone fit who "Knows" there is a God but has no Belief in that God?

Just for future Referance.

 

[DrkSdBls]

She can be an agnostic. "Without Knowledge"

She can certainly be an agnostic.

By the Way, I'm a Guy!

 

[The Bellman]

But No, I am neither Theist nor Atheist in the regard that I do not "Believe" in your definition of God.

Then you're an atheist. Easy.

The Question of Belief is not even an Issue for me. It's a Philosophical Stance, not a Matter of Belief.

It doesn't have to be an issue for you; if you don't have belief, you're an atheist.

So, where in that scale would someone fit who "Knows" there is a God but has no Belief in that God?

If someone "knows" (ie., holds the opinion with a high degree of certainty), then they believe by definition.

 

[MoonLancer]

So, where in that scale would someone fit who "Knows" there is a God but has no Belief in that God?

Just for future Reference.

do you mean someone who doesn't need belief because they already know? if so how do you know? Or do you mean someone who knows god exists but has no loyalty to that god? that you have no faith in god the same way someone may lack faith in people.

 

[Chalnoth]

By the way, DrkSdBls, I personally don't think anybody here should be stating (and I hope they're not) that you should call yourself an atheist as well as an agnostic. It's clear that both terms apply, but it should also be clear to us all that one of these words more closely explains how you approach the idea of a god. Just bear in mind that the statement, "I am an atheist," does not mean, "I believe no god exists." What it does mean is, "I have no belief in any deity." The difference is naturally subtle, but the first is a positive claim that no such thing exists, while the second is a negative claim, a mere lack of belief. Clearly some atheists will be able to claim both stances as being accurate for themselves, but others will only hold to the second stance (lack of belief).

 

[RealityCheck]

Then you're an atheist. Easy.


It doesn't have to be an issue for you; if you don't have belief, you're an atheist.


If someone "knows" (ie., holds the opinion with a high degree of certainty), then they believe by definition.

Hate to point this out, but you're wrong. Atheism is predominantly used not to convey "no belief in any god/gods" but "failure to believe in a particular god". Christians were once branded as "dangerous atheists" for professing their non-belief in the Roman gods, for which they were roundly and routinely punished with crucifixions, burnings, flayings, or a combination thereof - all because atheism was dangerous in that it invited the wrath of the gods to be invited on the whole Roman population.

You can use the term "atheist" however you wish, but you will always convey "failure to believe in a particular god" in the same way that someone using the term "Christian" conveys "fundamentalist creationist bible-pounding gay-basher."

 

[The Bellman]

Hate to point this out, but you're wrong. Atheism is predominantly used not to convey "no belief in any god/gods" but "failure to believe in a particular god". Christians were once branded as "dangerous atheists" for professing their non-belief in the Roman gods, for which they were roundly and routinely punished with crucifixions, burnings, flayings, or a combination thereof - all because atheism was dangerous in that it invited the wrath of the gods to be invited on the whole Roman population.

You can use the term "atheist" however you wish, but you will always convey "failure to believe in a particular god" in the same way that someone using the term "Christian" conveys "fundamentalist creationist bible-pounding gay-basher."

Umm...sorry, but atheism means lack of belief in any god/gods. What Christians were once branded as is irrelevant; what is relevant is how the word is used today. And today it's used to mean lack of belief in any god or gods.

And the word "Christian" doesn't convey "fundamentalist creationist bible-pounding gay-basher" - at least, not to me or to anyone I know.

 

[RealityCheck]

Umm...sorry, but atheism means lack of belief in any god/gods. What Christians were once branded as is irrelevant; what is relevant is how the word is used today. And today it's used to mean lack of belief in any god or gods.

By atheists, yes. By non-atheists... well, just tell nearly any Christian that you're an atheist, and they interpret that as "You hate Jesus and God." The Christian God, mind you.

It is, I know, very difficult to get across what atheism means to you when someone else has an ingrained concept of what it means to them.

 

[DrkSdBls]

Then you're an atheist. Easy.


It doesn't have to be an issue for you; if you don't have belief, you're an atheist.

Nope. it's far more complecated then that. I can never and will never be an Atheist. It's an impossible stance for me.

If someone "knows" (ie., holds the opinion with a high degree of certainty), then they believe by definition.

I never said anything about "Opinion."

I do not "Believe" in a God by Your understanding of it. I understand God the same way as I understand my own Thoughts.

 

[DrkSdBls]

do you mean someone who doesn't need belief because they already know? if so how do you know? Or do you mean someone who knows god exists but has no loyalty to that god? that you have no faith in god the same way someone may lack faith in people.

In a manner of Speaking.

See, the only think about "God" that anyone is concerned with about "Believing" is what they Don't Know. As such, they fill in that Lack of Knowledging with so much Crap that it begins to become the only thing they Know at all.

Too Much Belief where none is needed.

People have become to focused on the Who, Where, When, and Why that they overlook the Obvious. The Concept of God has been so far askewed for anyone to clear their Mind of what they have Told about God and Stop to think that their very Approach is wrong.

 

[DrkSdBls]

By the way, DrkSdBls, I personally don't think anybody here should be stating (and I hope they're not) that you should call yourself an atheist as well as an agnostic. It's clear that both terms apply, but it should also be clear to us all that one of these words more closely explains how you approach the idea of a god. Just bear in mind that the statement, "I am an atheist," does not mean, "I believe no god exists." What it does mean is, "I have no belief in any deity." The difference is naturally subtle, but the first is a positive claim that no such thing exists, while the second is a negative claim, a mere lack of belief. Clearly some atheists will be able to claim both stances as being accurate for themselves, but others will only hold to the second stance (lack of belief).

At most, I've have concidered myself Agnostic.

But, that's beside the point.

 

[Skaloop]

At most, I've have concidered myself Agnostic.

But, that's beside the point.

So you don't know if there are any gods that actually exist. But do you think/believe/opine/assume that any gods do exist?

You can think something without knowing for sure. For instance, I don't know whether my brother is on a plane right now. I think that he is, since he is scheduled to arrive here in a couple of hours. However, I don't know for sure; he may have missed his flight, or he may have cancelled his visit. But I still think he's on a plane right now.

So, granted you don't know for sure, do you think any gods exist?

 

[The Bellman]

By atheists, yes. By non-atheists... well, just tell nearly any Christian that you're an atheist, and they interpret that as "You hate Jesus and God." The Christian God, mind you.

Then they're wrong. If I tell you I like bananas and you interepret that as "I hate sausages", you're wrong.

 

[The Bellman]

Nope. it's far more complecated then that. I can never and will never be an Atheist. It's an impossible stance for me.

No, it's not complicated at all. If you believe that a god exists, you're a theist. If you don't, you're an atheist. It's as simple as that.

Note also that atheism isn't a stance; it's a lack of a stance. You seem to think atheism is a conclusion, or something held to be true; it's not. It's merely the lack of belief in a god or gods.

I never said anything about "Opinion."

No, you said "knows", in inverted commas, which indicates that you didn't actually mean 'knows' (or you would have left out the inverted commas). I had to guess what you actually meant. But judging by the following paragraph of yours, you are of the opinion that a god exists.

I do not "Believe" in a God by Your understanding of it. I understand God the same way as I understand my own Thoughts.

To understand god, you would have to hold that he exists; that makes you a theist. And yes, if you hold that he exists, you believe in him.

You seem rather keen to make this more complex than it is. I'm sorry, but it's extremely simple. If you beleive (hold to be true, have the opinion, whatever synonym you want to use) that a god or gods exist, you're a theist. If you don't, you're an atheist. It's as simple as that. Everybody is either an atheist or a theist; you're no exception.

 

[Cassandra]

Where does belief in forces/entities beyond the understanding of science other than god/s (aka the supernatural) fit into all this?

I used to consider myself an agnostic theist. Now I'm not sure what I am.

And I think it's possible not to have an opinion either way. Some people just haven't had any sort of experience that leads them to take one stance or the other. Or maybe they just don't care.