Darwinism = Eugenics And Racism

[Loudmouth]

Lover of freedom, when the (Nazi) revolution came, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration for it because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

-- Albert Einstein

You might want to read the following article:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-01-05.html

This is, at best, a paraphrasing of what Einstein said and a complete fabrication at worst. From the linked article:

Ms. Wolff was able to answer my question: It turns out that the Einstein Archives contain an unpublished letter mentioning this topic specifically. Writing to Count Montgelas on March 28, 1947, Einstein explained that early in the Hitler years he had casually mentioned to some journalist that hardly any German intellectuals except a few churchmen were supporting individual rights and intellectual freedom. He added that this statement had subsequently been drastically exaggerated beyond anything that he could recognize as his own.
​

What other misrepresentations should we expect from you in the future, Richard?

 

[RichardT]

which church do you speak of?

I'm not sure which church Einstein is speaking of.

 

[RichardT]

What other misrepresentations should we expect from you in the future, Richard?

I wouldn't know, regardless, I wouldn't take anything as absolute truth from skeptic.com. The source used for the quote is "(cited by Wilhelm Niemoller in Kampi und Zeugnis der bekennenden Kirche — Struggle and Testimony of the Confessing Church, p. 526. and Cochrane)"

From reading the article, I see that the quote has been used in Time magazine.

Time Magazine, December 23, 1940 (page 38).1 “The best tribute to the spirit of Germany’s Christians comes from a Jew and an agnostic (Time, Sept. 23) — the world’s most famous scientist, Albert Einstein,”

LM, do you have access to this? "Unpublished letter, Einstein Archives, item number 58-548."

 

[NailsII]

ITime Magazine, December 23, 1940 (page 38).1 “The best tribute to the spirit of Germany’s Christians comes from a Jew and an agnostic (Time, Sept. 23) — the world’s most famous scientist, Albert Einstein,”

I think yo will find that, although the letter was credited to Einstein, his name does not appear on it and it is almost certaintanly not his tyle of writing.
It is vastly different from anything he has ever written, and not even close to his oral style of communication.
This alone is enough to suggest that it is a poor forgery at best.

 

[NailsII]

In fact, I'll bet among the atheists here there is a higher percentage that believe in the following then you will find in the general population:

-Abortion
-Sterilization
-Mercy Killing (Assisted Suicide)
-Population Control
-Population Reduction

In fact, there is a whole new "breeding is bad" movement that is gaining ground out there right now, and I'll bet there are people on this very forum who will argue that having too many kids is a bad thing or even a crime against the environment.

I'll offer my own personals on this then.

-Abortion - a tough subject. If it were my kid, I'd honestly believe I would never want it aborted. But if a young woman, raped, found herself pregnant and would rather kill herself than be reminded of that henous crime every day of her life, then I know what I would let her do.
Besides, if this god thing is right, he's impartial to the odd abortion himself. Only around 1 in 7 human sexual couplings result in a viable offspring - many are terminated by the mother's own body in the first few weeks for various reasons, sometimes no apparant reason at all. And what about stillborn children? What does that say about your loving god?
-Sterilization. Although i wouldn't advocate preventing people from reproducing per se, I have to concede that their are times when it could be justified. Rapists and child sex abusers should have external genitals surgically removed really, shortly followed by the head.
Seriously though, I have seen claims that severely mentally handicapped people could be sterilised to prevent them having a pregnancy that would be out of their control or could even kill them. It's a serious argument and I'm afraid I'm a bit of a fence-sitter on this one.
-Mercy Killing (Assisted Suicide). Absolute, 100% yes. WE do it to animals because we cannot bear to see them suffer!
-Population Control and Population Reduction. I will offer my opinions on these two together, and just briefly say that it is logical to want to have a grown-up debate on this sooner rather than later. 6 1/2 billion people is an awful lot, and in many places the land just cannot support that many humans - especially not with an estimated growth of 500,000,000 more humans every seven years.
With this in mind, it is only sensible to look to the future and say that having too many kids is going to become a bad thing!!

 

[NailsII]

I'm not sure which church Einstein is speaking of.

I can only assume it was the catholic church, because that is the one that bent over backwards to welcome hitler to power - from the pope downwards.

 

[RichardT]

I can only assume it was the catholic church, because that is the one that bent over backwards to welcome hitler to power - from the pope downwards.

In the quote, Einstein is thanking the church for standing up for Truth against Hitler (depending on whether the quote is genuine)


Lover of freedom, when the (Nazi) revolution came, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration for it because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

it here is reference to freedom, or the cause of truth

 

[The Bellman]

In the quote, Einstein is thanking the church for standing up for Truth against Hitler (depending on whether the quote is genuine)


Lover of freedom, when the (Nazi) revolution came, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration for it because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

it here is reference to freedom, or the cause of truth

I doubt very much that that quote is Einstein's, because I've not seen any evidence that he is sufficiently deluded to write such nonsense.

The Church bent over backwards to accomodate Hitler. It certain did not stand against him.

 

[DrkSdBls]

No I am not a troll.

Yes, this evidence is too much for you to handle so you will likely run away.

It is time to face the TRUTH.

MandM, I have a little secret for you.

Just because you post something in a Chat forum, it does not make it Evidence.

Your opinion is not "TRUTH."

 

[DrkSdBls]

Darwin himself was a believer in both.

Regardless of what Darwin's Personal Philosophies and/or Politics were, they have not bearing on the Scientific Grounds which his Theory was based.

In fact, I'll bet among the atheists here there is a higher percentage that believe in the following then you will find in the general population:

I'm willing to take that bet. Perhaps you should make a Poll on it?

Personally, I'm neither Athiest nor Thiest but I would like to answer anyway.

-Abortion
I have no Moral Objection to it. All I can tell you is that It creaps me out anything I think about Late Term Abortions.

-Sterilization
Question: Voluntary or Involuntary?
Because it all depends on it's context. If somebody Voluntarily Has themselves Sterilized, we really don't have any say in the matter, regardless of our beliefs.

But, if it's Involuntary, It all depends on the reasons (and it would have to be a really, really, realy good reason.)

-Mercy Killing (Assisted Suicide)
Yes. There's nothing "morally" wrong with Suicide in general as far as I can see (and I have thought of this quite a Bit but) It certainly must be a Last Choice Scenario.

-Population Control
Another question as to context. Voluntary or Involuntary?

-Population Reduction
"Reduction" as in what way? You can't possibly mean Genocide or Mass Murder! No sane person would advocate such a thing.

 

[The Bellman]

...I'm neither Athiest nor Thiest...

Just an aside here - yes, you are. Everybody is an atheist or a theist. Basically, 'atheist' means 'not a theist'. You must be one of the two.

 

[RichardT]

Just an aside here - yes, you are. Everybody is an atheist or a theist. Basically, 'atheist' means 'not a theist'. You must be one of the two.

She can be an agnostic. "Without Knowledge"

 

[The Bellman]

She can be an agnostic. "Without Knowledge"

She can certainly be an agnostic. She will still be either a theist or an atheist (they are about belief, not knowledge). Everyone is either theist or atheist.

 

[RichardT]

She can certainly be an agnostic. She will still be either a theist or an atheist (they are about belief, not knowledge). Everyone is either theist or atheist.

agnosticism:

1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

http://www.answers.com/agnosticism&r=67

 

[The Bellman]

agnosticism:

1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

http://www.answers.com/agnosticism&r=67

Um....that's nice. Changes nothing that I said, though.

 

[RichardT]

Um....that's nice. Changes nothing that I said, though.

Your claim that everyone is either Atheist or Theist is wrong. Some people either just don't believe either way, believe that it could never be known, or seriously don't know what to believe.

 

[The Bellman]

Your claim that everyone is either Atheist or Theist is wrong. Some people either just don't believe either way, believe that it could never be known, or seriously don't know what to believe.

If they don't believe, they lack belief. That's atheism. Atheism isn't a belief; it's a lack of belief. It doesn't matter whether or not they think it could never be known, don't know what to believe, aren't sure or whatever. If it can't be truthfully said that they believe in a god, they're an atheist. That's what the word means - someone who lacks belief in gods.

Everybody is either a theist or an atheist, by definition.

 

[MoonLancer]

RichardT, the word Atheist literally means, Non-Theist.

Your Theist or Non-Theist.

take your pick.

 

[TheOutsider]

She can certainly be an agnostic. She will still be either a theist or an atheist (they are about belief, not knowledge). Everyone is either theist or atheist.

I was going to side with Richard for a sec, but it looks like you are right.

: 1)belief in the existence of a god or gods; 2)specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Rich and I were thinking of definition #2, while you are talking about definition #1. Now, where do Dualists fit on this scale?

 

[Patashu]

So, is anyone who says they're agnostic actually an atheistic agnostic or something?