Darkness falls ...

[Grengor]

Bwahahaha, pwned.

 

[TheListener]

I have. It was full of racism. They had massive violence - they called them 'World Wars' or something equally bizarre. Women did not have the vote. Neither did the blacks. And Jews were barred from teaching. Domestic violence was not a crime. And so on.

Oh no, none of those happen anymore do they... lol

 

[nvxplorer]

I have. It was full of racism. They had massive violence - they called them 'World Wars' or something equally bizarre. Women did not have the vote. Neither did the blacks. And Jews were barred from teaching. Domestic violence was not a crime. And so on.

You mean those things aren’t representative of upstanding Christian morality?

 

[TheListener]

Bwahahaha, pwned.

Yeah I'm pwnd why not...

 

[ebia]

That is a good link for Victorian education standards. But is it set by educators or can it be set by, for example, politicians directing the educators? In other words, if enough people wanted it, could that be altered to include ID? My suspicion is that without constitutional protection, legislators could shape that to be what they want it to be. And money - and, more importantly, votes - can buy a whole lot of legislators ...

So far the curriculum authorities tend to stay pretty independent - the only people they tend to be influenced by are the universities, particularly the prestigious ones (University of Melbourne in Victoria). The government that seems to want to meddle in education at the moment is the Federal goverment (which has no consitutional mandate to do so whatsoever). It would take quite a lot for the fundementalists to get the changes they want, and I rather suspect that the general australian public (that is rather suspisious of religious people at the best of times) wouldn't take kindly to "religious nutters mucking up our pretty decent school system".

If I was the ID movement, I would get hundreds of fundamentalists to move to marginal electorates.

It's a bit harder to do here than in many countries, because:
a. Voting is compulsory.
b. We have a form of single transferable vote (the "preference" system) rather than a "first past the post" system.

 

[Grengor]

Oh no, none of those happen anymore do they... lol

Well, you could consider the war in Iraq is world war 3, but are jews barred from teaching? Is domestic violence still not a crime? Didn't think so lol

 

[nvxplorer]

Oh no, none of those happen anymore do they... lol

What kind of laws do you people have? Is racial discrimination legal? Women and blacks can’t vote? Domestic violence is legal?

 

[Grengor]

Yeah I'm pwnd why not...

It was a comment about David Goulds, which I don't see you refuting, so I claimed pwned, it's not victory, but it is funny.

 

[David Gould]

Oh no, none of those happen anymore do they... lol

You are claiming that things are getting worse not that it is just the same today as it was fifty years ago.

 

[TheListener]

What kind of laws do you people have? Is racial discrimination legal? Women and blacks can’t vote? Domestic violence is legal?

Racial discrimination is illegal but please don't try to convince me it doesn't happen.

Women & blacks can vote, I'll give you that.

Domestic violence is illegal. Does that mean it never happens anymore? Try switching on a police scanner on a friday or saturday evening after a warm day.

 

[TheListener]

You are claiming that things are getting worse not that it is just the same today as it was fifty years ago.

Yes that is what I am claiming.

How many times have you heard "oh we never used to lock our doors in the old days"?

 

[TheListener]

It was a comment about David Goulds, which I don't see you refuting, so I claimed pwned, it's not victory, but it is funny.

Sure. It's all a game.

 

[Guywiththehead]

Look at this, chart, TheListener:
http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/pchart1.pdf

As you can see, the number of pirates has decreased while global warming has increased. However, suggesting that the decrease in pirates causes global warming is absurdity.*

Religiousness is decreasing while what you find as immoral is increasing, but that doesn't mean the one causes the other any more than lack of pirates cause global warming.



*And by absurdity I mean truth. Praise the FSM!

EDIT: Perhaps that should be "while what you find immoral you think is increasing". Curse how I forgot that crime is actually decreasing.

 

[TheListener]

Look at this, chart, TheListener:
http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/pchart1.pdf

As you can see, the number of pirates has decreased while global warming has increased. However, suggesting that the decrease in pirates causes global warming is absurdity.*

Religiousness is decreasing while what you find as immoral is increasing, but that doesn't mean the one causes the other any more than lack of pirates cause global warming.



*And by absurdity I mean truth. Praise the FSM!

That's a good argument.

 

[David Gould]

Yes that is what I am claiming.

Claiming without evidence, which is the point we are trying to make.

How many times have you heard "oh we never used to lock our doors in the old days"?

A fair bit. But that says nothing about the rate of crime. It instead speaks to the fear of crime.

Violent crime in the US has been falling for the last decade. Yet fear of violent crime has been rising. Why? Because crime sells, and so the media pack their pages and their broadcasts with lurid stories about killers and rapists and muggers. There are much less of these acts committed now than there were 10 years ago. Yet there is much more written about them in the press.

Crime falls. Fear rises. More people lock their doors.

 

[nvxplorer]

Yes that is what I am claiming.

How many times have you heard "oh we never used to lock our doors in the old days"?

Can you show that crime is caused by “godlessness?”

And you keep ignoring my point. I can leave my door wide open if I choose. Yet, I live in a bastion of what you consider sin. If crime is related to “sinfulness,” why is crime relatively nonexistent in my area?

 

[Electric Sceptic]

How would you like it if your daughter came home one day and told you she became a prostitute to support her crack habbit but her herpes was playing up so her pimp beat her half to death, now she needs a place to stay?

Don't laugh, it could happen to someone... Maybe even to me, who knows. It's the world we live in isn't it...

I wouldn't like it. What does it have to do with the discussion? Nothing.

As a person who beleives in Jesus I recognise the evil in all this and so I will go out of my way not to engage in such sexual immorality, I will flee from it.

I can't speak for others but as a godless person you have represented yourself.

This is just dishonest. You've been repeatedly asked to support your claims with figures or evidence showing the causal relationship you claim exists - and you've failed. Now you're just casting slurs on others.

You have consistently failed to support your claims in any way - you just keep repeating them.

 

[ebia]

Yes that is what I am claiming.

How many times have you heard "oh we never used to lock our doors in the old days"?

Can you provide any evidence for it, rather than just anecdote?

There is a lot that has clearly got better:
Racism still exists, but it is no longer systemic in the way that it was.
Sexism still exists, but it is no longer systemic in the way that it was.
Religious factionalism and discrimination between Catholics and Protestants has largely disappear completely.
Domestic violence still happens, but it is no longer considered acceptable by society.

To make your point you need to:
a. Prove that things have actually got worse - that there is a correlation
b. Demonstrate cause and effect.

Without both of those you have no case. So far it seems you have neither.

 

[EvoDan]

Crime falls. Fear rises. More people lock their doors.

Or invade sovereign countries looking for WMD's.


Fear is the prime motivating factor of religion and politics.

 

[TheListener]

Claiming without evidence, which is the point we are trying to make.



A fair bit. But that says nothing about the rate of crime. It instead speaks to the fear of crime.

Violent crime in the US has been falling for the last decade. Yet fear of violent crime has been rising. Why? Because crime sells, and so the media pack their pages and their broadcasts with lurid stories about killers and rapists and muggers. There are much less of these acts committed now than there were 10 years ago. Yet there is much more written about them in the press.

Crime falls. Fear rises. More people lock their doors.

Have a read of the book "To protect & serve" by Richard Basham & Tim Priest. Gives you a good insight into what crime numbers really are.

It is pointless quoting crime numbers. What are they based on? Conviction rates? Charges? Calls to 000? I can tell you this, none of those numbers will ever reflect the real crime rates. Thus it is a pointless exercise to quote statistics if we want to be realistic. Crime might be low in some parts of Canberra. It certainly isn't in the vast majority of Sydney.