Daniel's 70th week

[mkgal1]

If you read Daniel 9:25-27 you will see it..
First block: Daniel 9:25...Know and understand this: FROM the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem UNTIL the Annointed One, the ruler comes, there will be seven sevens and sixty two seven.... (7+62=69weeks)..

Between the two blocks (years)...

Daniel 9:26...After the sixty two sevens, the Annointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come and destroy the city and sanctuary....AD 70 event....
The end will come like a flood: war will continue UNTIL the end (last 7years)

Second block: Daniel 9 :27...he will confirm "a" covenant for many for one seven In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering and at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation, UNTIL the end that is decreed is poured out on it....
Matthew 24:15...

This is future event (Daniel 9:27) leading to the coming of Christ....

Yes, I've read the passage several times over the years. The problem with the gap theory is that the passage states "after the 62 weeks' (which is a total of AFTER 69 weeks with the first seven weeks)....the anointed One (Christ) is put to death. You can't have something occuring in a vacuum of time. AFTER 69 weeks comes the 70th week - and the history lines up beautifully to what was prophesied. Christ was anointed at His baptism in 27 AD - He was crucified 3.5 years later in 30 AD - and there was still 3.5 years remaining until the Gospel was taken out of Jerusalem to the Gentiles..... bringing the time line to 34 AD. That's the completion of final (70th) week. In other words - the 70th week is Christ's ministry on Earth - His FIRST appearance. It's fulfilled - and right on time.

Total of 70 weeks of 7 = 490 years
457 BC + 490 years = 34 AD (there's no zero year)

 

[claninja]

Yes, I agree Christ is the reason why our sins is put away, not only that but all promises the Father given to us is complete in Him.

If you agree Christ put away sins for believers at his first coming, then we are in agreement.

 

[parousia70]

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

The gathering of all from one end OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (Mark's Gospel says "uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven) simply speaks of the following single promise coming true: John 11:52, John 10:16; Eph 1:10; Luke 13:28-29/Matt 8:10-11. The "gathering" language Jesus uses comes from Deut 30:3-4 and how Jehovah gathered unto himself his scattered Israelites whom were exiled due from disobedience but were later re-collected into the covenant blessings. This language was used OFTEN for Yahweh's returning His People to covenant blessings in O.T. times (see also Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13). Jesus had sent his messengers to set up the creation of the one new Nation of jews and gentiles together and once they were purified He consumated them in Himself as an established, eternal Covenant Nation (like when Joshua entered the promised land after the 40 years). So also does Jesus repeat the language since now it is HE that is acting as ONE with the Father Jehovah and in the Father's glory (Matt 16:27).

Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses are always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16)

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece and blew His trumpet (Zechariah 9:13-16);

*Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2);

*Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10);

*Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5);

*Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).

So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).

 

[sovereigngrace]

The gathering of all from one end OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (Mark's Gospel says "uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven) simply speaks of the following single promise coming true: John 11:52, John 10:16; Eph 1:10; Luke 13:28-29/Matt 8:10-11. The "gathering" language Jesus uses comes from Deut 30:3-4 and how Jehovah gathered unto himself his scattered Israelites whom were exiled due from disobedience but were later re-collected into the covenant blessings. This language was used OFTEN for Yahweh's returning His People to covenant blessings in O.T. times (see also Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13). Jesus had sent his messengers to set up the creation of the one new Nation of jews and gentiles together and once they were purified He consumated them in Himself as an established, eternal Covenant Nation (like when Joshua entered the promised land after the 40 years). So also does Jesus repeat the language since now it is HE that is acting as ONE with the Father Jehovah and in the Father's glory (Matt 16:27).

Also, Jehovah's OT apocalypses are always described as Jehovah coming down and leading armies, and shooting arrows, and bowing the heavens and destroying the earth and such. Those OT events had corresponding judgments on earth, but the Jews knew Jehovah never literally and physically did those things. Yet the prophets spoke in very physical/literal terms about those judgments:

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows at Saul and his armies, destroying the earth and the heavens at the time (2 Sam 22:8-16)

*Yahweh came down and shot his arrows over Greece and blew His trumpet (Zechariah 9:13-16);

*Yahweh came down riding a cloud to beat up on Egypt (Isa 19:1-2);

*Yahweh made bare his Holy Arm in the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10);

*Yahweh came to the Israelites at Sinai and Seir with Ten Thousand of His Saints and led a march on the fields of Edom (Deut 33:2; Judges 5:4-5);

*Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30) and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon (Ezekiel 32:2-8).

So also did Christ do these things when "the Lord of the Vineyard came" in AD 66-70 and was to them the Stone that crushed them to powder and removed the Kingdom of God from them (see Matthew 21:40-45).

You are totally avoiding the fact that this is a gathering of the elect both in heaven and on earth. This can only relate to the catching away/resurrection of the just that is going to happen when Jesus comes to glorify His people and glorify the earth. There is no skirting around it!

The Scripture you submit are totally unrelated.

 

[parousia70]

You are totally avoiding the fact that this is a gathering of the elect both in heaven and on earth. This can only relate to the catching away/resurrection of the just that is going to happen when Jesus comes to glorify His people and glorify the earth. There is no skirting around it!

The Scripture you submit are totally unrelated.

Rather, they are absolutely related, and must be understood in their light... and do not exist in the vacuum you claim.

I noticed you avoided the Previous OT Comings of God with His angels, riding a cloud, blowing his trumpet, wielding His sword, destroying the heavens and earth each time...

Somehow you conveniently failed to address your personal interpretive inconsistency with this language...

Why is it you personally choose to interpret these OT accounts as metaphor, yet apply a polar opposite wooden literal interpretation to the same language when you find it int he NT?

Where does scripture teach you to do this?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rather, they are absolutely related, and must be understood in their light... and do not exist in the vacuum you claim.

I noticed you avoided the Previous OT Comings of God with His angels, riding a cloud, blowing his trumpet, wielding His sword, destroying the heavens and earth each time...

Somehow you conveniently failed to address your personal interpretive inconsistency with this language...

Why is it you personally choose to interpret these OT accounts as metaphor, yet apply a polar opposite wooden literal interpretation to the same language when you find it int he NT?

Where does scripture teach you to do this?

Please address the avoided question:

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

 

[parousia70]

Please address the avoided question:

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

Exactly the same way God gathered His people and came down from heaven blowing His trumpet all those other times I cited, yet you refuse to address.

Our readers are smart, and they can see that your wish to interpret Matt and Mark in a vacuum without applying the scriptural precedent I have cited is without merit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Exactly the same way God gathered His people and came down from heaven blowing His trumpet all those other times I cited, yet you refuse to address.

Our readers are smart, and they can see that your wish to interpret Matt and Mark in a vacuum without applying the scriptural precedent I have cited is without merit.

Which elect did Jesus gather in heaven in AD70 and bring with Him? You are totally ducking around the question!

 

[parousia70]

Which elect did Jesus gather in heaven in AD70 and bring with Him? You are totally ducking around the question!

Not Ducking at all.
You have no scriptural mandate for your wooden literal desires here friend.

In contrast, i have provided MYRIAD scriptures supporting the precedented use and application of this language, and Therefore I apply it thusly.

Show me the mandate in scripture that teaches me I should apply your hyper literal understanding of this verse.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Why is it you personally choose to interpret these OT accounts as metaphor, yet apply a polar opposite wooden literal interpretation to the same language when you find it in the NT?

The Old Testament references that you offer are from songs, oracles and poetic writings. The Olivet discourse is not.

Where does scripture teach you to do this?

From Matthew 24:3. The disciples approached Jesus with earnest questions that called for frank answers. Can you imagine Jesus singing his reply to them?

 

[parousia70]

The Old Testament references that you offer are from songs, oracles and poetic writings. The Olivet discourse is not.

Your point?
The Language is the same as all previous Cloud coming Judgments. Jesus Spoke in the manner and tradition of the OT Prophets. Such is plain.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

From Matthew 24:3. The disciples approached Jesus with earnest questions that called for frank answers. Can you imagine Jesus singing his reply to them?

Among the earnest questions they asked was "WHEN would the temple Fall".

Please point to the verse where you believe Jesus gave the frank answer called for to that specific question.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not Ducking at all.
You have no scriptural mandate for your wooden literal desires here friend.

In contrast, i have provided MYRIAD scriptures supporting the precedented use and application of this language, and Therefore I apply it thusly.

Show me the mandate in scripture that teaches me I should apply your hyper literal understanding of this verse.

Not one of them teach Jesus would "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27).

 

[parousia70]

Not one of them teach Jesus would "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27).

Of course that's when it happened. And is absolutely consistent with the whole council of scriptural teaching on the timing.

The gathering of all from one end OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (Mark's Gospel says "uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven) simply speaks of the following single promise coming true: John 11:52, John 10:16; Eph 1:10; Luke 13:28-29/Matt 8:10-11. The "gathering" language Jesus uses comes from Deut 30:3-4 and how Jehovah gathered unto himself his scattered Israelites whom were exiled due from disobedience but were later re-collected into the covenant blessings. This language was used OFTEN for Yahweh's returning His People to covenant blessings in O.T. times (see also Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13). Jesus had sent his messengers to set up the creation of the one new Nation of jews and gentiles together and once they were purified He consumated them in Himself as an established, eternal Covenant Nation (like when Joshua entered the promised land after the 40 years). So also does Jesus repeat the language since now it is HE that is acting as ONE with the Father Jehovah and in the Father's glory (Matt 16:27).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your point?
The Language is the same as all previous Cloud coming Judgments. Jesus Spoke in the manner and tradition of the OT Prophets. Such is plain.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)
As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.


Among the earnest questions they asked was "WHEN would the temple Fall".

Please point to the verse where you believe Jesus gave the frank answer called for to that specific question.

2+2=4, not 22.

You are trying to add OT passages, that have nothing to AD70 and couple them with Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, and Revelation 14:14-20 (passages that relate to a literal physical climactic future coming of Christ) and make AD70 the second coming.

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, and Revelation 14:14-20 relate to a literal physical climactic future coming of Christ.

Rather, The cloud-coming attested to by St. John in Rev 14:14-20 is obviously not a physical/literal event.
that passage plainly demonstrates that Christ himself is in the heavenly clouds, and is casting down judgments upon the earth. Those judgments were all "near soon and at hand" in St. John's generation (Rev 1:1-3; 22:6-7), John himself was in the tribulation period and the Kingdom when the book was written (Rev 1:9), and Christ's return was applied to the first-century Asia Minor churches (Rev 2-3).

Revelation 2-3 explicitly documents the first-century return of Jesus Christ to the Asia Minor Churches. We may not deny what the bible plainly teaches. Jesus returned to each one of them and executed his judgments and addressed various issues particular to those Churches. Read it. It's documented history. It's scripturally verified.

Also, I have to continue to assert that those who think that seeing Christ's return at AD 66-70 must be a physical/literal incarnation of some kind are simply not reading the Old Testament. One can't hardly read five chapters of the Old Testamnent with out coming across a depiction of Yahweh showing up on earth and performing some event that is described as physical/literal (try Isa 34 or 2 Sam 22:8-16 for example). Or how about this TYPICAL statement:

Zechariah 9:13-14
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. And JEHOVAH SHALL BE SEEN OVER THEM, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning:...

Yet Yahweh never did any of those things is a physical literal way. We are even told MANY times that all people would marvel at Yahweh's comings. This is jewish apocalyptic language and was the norm for how they understood and knew of God's appearings.

Again, you have no scriptural mandate to apply a POLAR OPPOSITE meaning to this language when you find it in the NT. You have only man made tradition, the absolute weakest foundation to build doctrine upon.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Of course that's when it happened. And is absolutely consistent with the whole council of scriptural teaching on the timing.

The gathering of all from one end OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (Mark's Gospel says "uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven) simply speaks of the following single promise coming true: John 11:52, John 10:16; Eph 1:10; Luke 13:28-29/Matt 8:10-11. The "gathering" language Jesus uses comes from Deut 30:3-4 and how Jehovah gathered unto himself his scattered Israelites whom were exiled due from disobedience but were later re-collected into the covenant blessings. This language was used OFTEN for Yahweh's returning His People to covenant blessings in O.T. times (see also Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13). Jesus had sent his messengers to set up the creation of the one new Nation of jews and gentiles together and once they were purified He consumated them in Himself as an established, eternal Covenant Nation (like when Joshua entered the promised land after the 40 years). So also does Jesus repeat the language since now it is HE that is acting as ONE with the Father Jehovah and in the Father's glory (Matt 16:27).

But the elect in heaven were NOT gathered in AD70. This doesn't add up. This is eisegesis. It is clearly unbiblical.

 

[Christian Gedge]

The Language is the same as all previous Cloud coming Judgments. Jesus Spoke in the manner and tradition of the OT Prophets. Such is plain.

When Jesus spoke in parables the gospels say so. He also spoke in straight forward speech. I won't obfuscate with multiple quotes from lofty oracles. I will simply repeat; the disciples approached Jesus with earnest questions that called for frank answers. His olivet discourse was a reply in that vein.

You need to stop floating over the obvious meanings and implications with excuses of metaphorical speech.

 

[jgr]

The Old Testament references that you offer are from songs, oracles and poetic writings. The Olivet discourse is not.

Chris, they were songs, oracles, and poetic writings; but they were nonetheless descriptive, in metaphor, of actual literal physical events.

It is therefore not at all surprising that Christ would employ identical etymology in describing actual literal physical events of transcendent significance -- the annihilation of the old covenant economy, the inauguration of the New Covenant age, and the watershed events and characteristics which accompanied each.

It would have been surprising for Him to not have used such literary mechanisms.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rather, The cloud-coming attested to by St. John in Rev 14:14-20 is obviously not a physical/literal event.
that passage plainly demonstrates that Christ himself is in the heavenly clouds, and is casting down judgments upon the earth. Those judgments were all "near soon and at hand" in St. John's generation (Rev 1:1-3; 22:6-7), John himself was in the tribulation period and the Kingdom when the book was written (Rev 1:9), and Christ's return was applied to the first-century Asia Minor churches (Rev 2-3).

Revelation 2-3 explicitly documents the first-century return of Jesus Christ to the Asia Minor Churches. We may not deny what the bible plainly teaches. Jesus returned to each one of them and executed his judgments and addressed various issues particular to those Churches. Read it. It's documented history. It's scripturally verified.

Also, I have to continue to assert that those who think that seeing Christ's return at AD 66-70 must be a physical/literal incarnation of some kind are simply not reading the Old Testament. One can't hardly read five chapters of the Old Testamnent with out coming across a depiction of Yahweh showing up on earth and performing some event that is described as physical/literal (try Isa 34 or 2 Sam 22:8-16 for example). Or how about this TYPICAL statement:

Zechariah 9:13-14
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. And JEHOVAH SHALL BE SEEN OVER THEM, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning:...

Yet Yahweh never did any of those things is a physical literal way. We are even told MANY times that all people would marvel at Yahweh's comings. This is jewish apocalyptic language and was the norm for how they understood and knew of God's appearings.

Again, you have no scriptural mandate to apply a POLAR OPPOSITE meaning to this language when you find it in the NT. You have only man made tradition, the absolute weakest foundation to build doctrine upon.

It seems like you have to spiritualize away the whole New Testament in order to allow Preterism to fit. But that is not the way it works.

The harvest and judgment of all occurs at the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ, when Christ finally meets out justice on “every man according as his work shall be.” It is following this that righteousness will finally rule unchallenged - eternally.

Jesus said, in the parable of the wheat and tares, in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field … Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Two different peoples are again in view in this narrative; one the wicked, who face the awful consuming wrath of God – being “burned in the fire,” the other the righteous who “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Moreover, the gathering together of the saints by the angels and the complete destruction of the wicked is notably located at “the end of the world.” The phrase “the end of the world” in this passage actually reads: the end of the aioonos or the end of the age. The elimination of the wicked therefore occurs when the Lord is revealed in all His glory at His Second Advent.

It is the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. Both sheep and goats wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this Gospel age. The wicked are then sentenced and cast “into a furnace of fire” where it says “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” It is at this point, and for them alone that fear the Lord, shall “the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings” (Malachi 4:3) and cause the elect to be glorified and finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

This symbolic closing scene in the parable of the wheat and tares of time is closely mirrored in Revelation 14:14-20, saying, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the Second Coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the Second Coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. We should state, the symbolism here should not be confused with Christ’s illustration of the vine in John 15. The earth is depicted as one overall symbolic ripe vine that is ready for harvesting. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

John the Baptist testified of Christ and of the general judgment, in Matthew 3:12, saying, “he will throughly purge his floor, and (1) gather his wheat into the garner; but he will (2) katakausei up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’. Christ uses similar language to that of John the Baptist in our previous passage, in Matthew 13:30, when speaking of the wheat and the tares, saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) ‘utterly burn up’ or ‘wholly consume’ them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” And verse 40 continues, “As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’ in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.”

Some take John’s pronouncement to be slightly different to the wheat/tares parable in that it is speaking of the visible church (or those that profess). Whilst they still relate to the wicked, John simply uses slightly different symbolism.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Chris, they were songs, oracles, and poetic writings; but they were nonetheless descriptive, in metaphor, of actual literal physical events.

It is therefore not at all surprising that Christ would employ identical etymology in describing actual literal physical events of transcendent significance -- the annihilation of the old covenant economy, the inauguration of the New Covenant age, and the watershed events and characteristics which accompanied each.

It would have been surprising for Him to not have used such literary mechanisms.

But the BIG difference is, the coming of Christ is a literal physical climactic event. You cannot spiritualize it away to fit Preterism.

Acts 1:10 says, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?
Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him?
Did the Gentiles also wail because of Him?

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.