Daniel's 70th week

[Christian Gedge]

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming.

• Dispensationalists 'secret coming' at a pre-trib rapture
• Jehovahs Witnesses 'secret coming' in AD 1914.
  
• Preterisms 'secret coming' in AD 70.

Heresies all of them! Lets get back to a simple, straight forward, orthodox eschatology.

 

[sovereigngrace]

• Dispensationalists 'secret coming' at a pre-trib rapture
• Jehovahs Witnesses 'secret coming' in AD 1914.
  
• Preterisms 'secret coming' in AD 70.

Heresies all of them! Lets get back to a simple, straight forward, orthodox eschatology.

Absolutely! All of them take away from the person of Christ and His glorious appearing.

 

[claninja]

Not one of them teach Jesus would "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27).

This isn't scriptural, and could be merely be attributed to neurons firing in a dying brain.

But my great grandmother was in the hospital dying and hadn't spoken for weeks. 30 seconds before she died, she sat up, stated "look at all the angels", and then closed her eyes and physically died. That sure sounds like angels gathering the elect when they are caught up to heaven upon physical death.

I also know that there have been many testimonies of believers seeing angels right before they die. But again could just be neurons firing in a dying brain.

Now on to something scriptural.

When do you believe the saints possess/inherit the kingdom?

Daniel 7:27-28 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

 

[sovereigngrace]

This isn't scriptural, and could be merely be attributed to neurons firing in a dying brain.

But my great grandmother was in the hospital dying and hadn't spoken for weeks. 30 seconds before she died, she sat up, stated "look at all the angels", and then closed her eyes and physically died. That sure sounds like angels gathering the elect when they are caught up to heaven upon physical death.

I also know that there have been many testimonies of believers seeing angels right before they die. But again could just be neurons firing in a dying brain.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus is describing as a pivotal moment in history when He comes in power and glory. This shows how Preterists have nothing to justify this impending climactic event and the detail attached. They just wing it.

Now on to something scriptural.

When do you believe the saints possess/inherit the kingdom?

Daniel 7:27-28 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

This relates to John the Baptist introduction of Jesus Christ and the beginning of the earthly ministry of the already/not yet dynamic.

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’

This is talking about the final judgment that happens at the literal physical future coming up the Lord Jesus Christ. When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

As we read earlier, 1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

 

[parousia70]

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

Isaiah must have missed that memo then:
Isaiah 65:
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

Isaiah Testifies quite plainly that in the New Heavens and Earth there WILL BE:
Human Procreation, Ageing, Vocations, the need for Shelter, the need to plant and eat food, Sinners, and Death.

St John must have missed your memo as well:

Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

St John plainly testifies here that on the new earth, just outside the perpetually open Gates of the New Jerusalem there are Immoral, dogs, sorcerers, adulterers and those who practice Lying.

 

[parousia70]

It seems like you have to spiritualize away the whole New Testament

This is funny coming from someone who MUST spiritualize away Soon, shortly, at hand, about to take place, in a very , very little while, without delay etc... in order to force his doctrine to work.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Isaiah must have missed that memo then:
Isaiah 65:
17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

20“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.

Isaiah Testifies quite plainly that in the New Heavens and Earth there WILL BE:
Human Procreation, Ageing, Vocations, the need for Shelter, the need to plant and eat food, Sinners, and Death.

You are imputing something into this that it is not literally stating.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.
Isaiah 65:24 says, “They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.”

Isaiah is passionate in using synonymous parallelism. He also is passionate about employing the Hebrew word Lo' to tell us what will not be happening in the eternal state.

Isaiah 65:24 says,

They shall not (Lo') labour in vain
nor (Lo') bring forth [for] trouble

Let us remind ourselves that the word Lo' it is a negation. It is telling us what will not happen. It is not saying children will be born on the new earth as now, but that they will not be born.

the former shall not (Lo') be remembered,
nor (Lo') come into mind.

This is clearly telling us that the old corrupt temporal decaying arrangement is going to be replaced by the new perfect eternal regime. The promises in this prophecy in regard to the new heavens and new earth is not more of the same to dread but rather the opposite – a brand new arrangement free of death and decay.

Isaiah 65:24 says, “for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.”

I am not sure where you see babies being birthed here. I feel you are imputing things into this reading that aren't there. Where does it say babes are born? It doesn't say they will have offspring, only that they will bring their offspring with them into the eternal state and that they will be blessed. That is just a reminder of the covenant promise that believers hold unto. I am sure you believe it is possible to bring our saved children with us to heaven?

Whilst there is much about eternity that has been concealed from the finite mind, we do have glimpses of what it will be like in Scripture. Our reading above is one such passage. In this reading we see the difference between our age and the age to come. In this age we labor much in vain. Also, through the fallen nature, we bring forth our progeny for trouble. Why? All men are born sinners and therefore prone to rebel and head for trouble. The Bible says that we are all “by nature the children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). The new heavens and a new earth will be completely different. Our wearisome labours in this life will come to an end, all our service then will be joyous and tireless unto God. Moreover, childbirth shall be no more.

Those that imagine that the redeemed are going to spend all eternity playing harps around a lake with their halos blowing in the wind are gravely mistaken. I don't believe this reading represents such an expectation. I feel that we will gladly and willingly serve the Lord in whatever tasks He requires. Anything that we perform for the Lord will not be tiresome or laborious – it will be a blessing and an honour. After all, we are in the eternal state. That does not negate the rest that we will enjoy in that age. The rest we will experience will be in enjoying our Saviour. It is not saying we will be in a perpetual state of laziness. Many try to explain away the eternal state with their finite understanding. The spiritual truths that are presented in Scripture in relation to eternity are done in such a manner to let mortal creatures understand the eternal bliss that will exist on the glorified new earth.

There will be no more procreation after the Lord’s return. The fact is, there will be no more marriage, pregnancy or births on the new earth. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” Isaiah agrees with this – when speaking of the new heavens and a new earth. Isaiah 65:24 is simply saying that the righteous are blessed, and their seed is blessed. In the eternal state the redeemed will not "bring forth for trouble." The time of such is over. The time of the sinner is finished. Only the righteous will inhabit this glorified domain.

It doesn't say they will have offspring on the new earth (that is a Premil theory), just, that the righteous “are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.” This tells us, the redeemed won’t make heaven alone. Mother and fathers will see their believing offspring join them. The circle in many homes will be unbroken. This shows us God’s faithfulness in gathering in the offspring of the redeemed. Blessing is indeed passed down from generation for the righteous, just like curses are to the wicked.

St John must have missed your memo as well:

Revelation 22:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

St John plainly testifies here that on the new earth, just outside the perpetually open Gates of the New Jerusalem there are Immoral, dogs, sorcerers, adulterers and those who practice Lying.

Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more death on the new earth. You say there is death on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more pain on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sorrow on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there are no more tears on the new earth. You say there is tears on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more corruption on the new earth. You say there is corruption on the new earth.

2 Peter 3:13 tells us that the new earth will be marked by “righteousness.” You say it will be known for righteousness and unrighteousness on the new earth.

Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that there is coming a day where “there shall be no more curse.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying. The final goal is the final creation of a new heavens and new earth characterized by justice, righteousness and perfection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is funny coming from someone who MUST spiritualize away Soon, shortly, at hand, about to take place, in a very , very little while, without delay etc... in order to force his doctrine to work.

Words like "at hand," “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

 

[parousia70]

Words like "at hand," “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

Incorrect. As Jesus himself affirms in Matthew 24:33

Time statements in scripture are ALWAYS given to be understood by how time relates to Man, not how time relates to God. Every Time, Without fail. Always.

God doesn't have Soon, Near, shortly or quickly.
People do.

 

[claninja]

This has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus is describing as a pivotal moment in history when He comes in power and glory. This shows how Preterists have nothing to justify this impending climactic event and the detail attached. They just wing it.

Angels gathering the elect to heaven upon physical death after the events of 66-70ad has nothing to do with Angels gathering the elect to heaven after the events of 66-70ad?

This relates to John the Baptist introduction of Jesus Christ and the beginning of the earthly ministry of the already/not yet dynamic.

The saints possessing the kingdom forever, has to do with John the Baptist's introduction of Jesus?

I disagree. OT scripture is clear that there would be 4 kingdoms, but the saints would POSSESS the kingdom forever.

NT scripture is clear, that the saints possess the kingdom when the wicked tenants are destroyed (Matthew 21:43), and when the Sheep are separated from the Goats (matthew 25:34).

I could not find one NT scripture that states the saints possessed the kingdom when John the Baptist introduced Jesus, as you are stating.

This is talking about the final judgment that happens at the literal physical future coming up the Lord Jesus Christ. When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep “inherit the kingdom” (Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast “into everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

As we read earlier, 1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

NT scripture is clear that the saints inherit the kingdom after they are separated from the goats (matthew 25:34)

Daniel is clear that this would occur around the time of the 4th kingdom (daniel 7:17-18).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Angels gathering the elect to heaven upon physical death after the events of 66-70ad has nothing to do with Angels gathering the elect to heaven after the events of 66-70ad?

What are you talking about? Do you even read the sacred text in question before you hit the reply button? Or are you trying to deliberately twist it to fit Full Preterism.

Jesus actually said in Mat 24:31: "And he (Jesus) shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He said in Mark 13:27: "And then shall he (Jesus) send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

You unilaterally deem "the elect" as 'the dead elect' in an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole and make the Scriptures say what it clearly does not. But the Scripture makes no such declaration. This is classic Preterist eisegesis.

Jesus gathers His elect from “the four winds of earth” (or the whole earth) and "from one end of heaven to the other," at His glorious climactic future return here. There is no other viable or acceptable interpretation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Angels gathering the elect to heaven upon physical death after the events of 66-70ad has nothing to do with Angels gathering the elect to heaven after the events of 66-70ad?



The saints possessing the kingdom forever, has to do with John the Baptist's introduction of Jesus?

I disagree. OT scripture is clear that there would be 4 kingdoms, but the saints would POSSESS the kingdom forever.

NT scripture is clear, that the saints possess the kingdom when the wicked tenants are destroyed (Matthew 21:43), and when the Sheep are separated from the Goats (matthew 25:34).

I could not find one NT scripture that states the saints possessed the kingdom when John the Baptist introduced Jesus, as you are stating.




NT scripture is clear that the saints inherit the kingdom after they are separated from the goats (matthew 25:34)

Daniel is clear that this would occur around the time of the 4th kingdom (daniel 7:17-18).

This is all Full Preterism and should be banned as heresy on this board. The coming of Christ is still future and so also is the resurrection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The saints possessing the kingdom forever, has to do with John the Baptist's introduction of Jesus?

I disagree. OT scripture is clear that there would be 4 kingdoms, but the saints would POSSESS the kingdom forever.

NT scripture is clear, that the saints possess the kingdom when the wicked tenants are destroyed (Matthew 21:43), and when the Sheep are separated from the Goats (matthew 25:34).

I could not find one NT scripture that states the saints possessed the kingdom when John the Baptist introduced Jesus, as you are stating.




NT scripture is clear that the saints inherit the kingdom after they are separated from the goats (matthew 25:34)

Daniel is clear that this would occur around the time of the 4th kingdom (daniel 7:17-18).

Daniel 7:18 says, “the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”

We have already entered into the kingdom through the new birth (John 3:3), which is repeatedly described as everlasting life.

Daniel 7:27 continues, “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

This is speaking about the here-and-now. It is speaking about a spiritual kingdom. Only the saints belong to the kingdom. In this kingdom Christ rules and reigns over all dominion and power. He now exercises supreme authority as sovereign King.

What is been taught here is that the many earthly kingdoms throughout time only last for a season. They arise and they fall. They each have an expiration date. But the kingdom of God, which believers belong to a heavenly kingdom which lasts “forever” because it is “an everlasting kingdom.” This is meant in the midst of describing the wickedness of the various evil man-made kingdoms to remind and reassure the believer of the kingdom he belongs to.

Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12, “from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom. They believed that the first thing He would do was subjugate all national Israel’s enemies, starting with the Romans. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The only problem was: they had a defective hyper-literalist understanding of Old Testament prophesies and a misconception of how the kingdom would look.

 

[claninja]

This is all Full Preterism and should be banned as heresy on this board. The coming of Christ is still future and so also is the resurrection.

Believing that Christ came in judgement in 70ad upon Israel and that believers go to heaven upon physical death is not full preterism. Please avoid false accusations intentional or unintentional if you can help it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Believing that Christ came in judgement in 70ad upon Israel and that believers go to heaven upon physical death is not full preterism. Please avoid false accusations intentional or unintentional if you can help it.

When did believers begin going to heaven upon physical death and on what grounds?

 

[Christian Gedge]

When did believers begin going to heaven upon physical death and on what grounds?

Yes, I would also like you to answer this question Claninja. What year please?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Believing that Christ came in judgement in 70ad upon Israel and that believers go to heaven upon physical death is not full preterism. Please avoid false accusations intentional or unintentional if you can help it.

You are repeatedly applying general resurrection passages and general judgment passages to the coming of Titus in AD70 rather than Jesus at the end is Full Preterism.

Jesus alludes to His climactic coming in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

This is the second coming and the general judgment. All mankind are before the same throne at the same time: sheep on right, goats on left. Simple! Saved or lost, heaven or hell, caught up or caught on.

It is “the sheep” alone (vv 32-33), who are identified as “ye blessed” (v 34) and “the righteous,” that “inherit the kingdom” (v 34), which in turn is shown to be “life eternal” (v 46). Only the glorified elect can fulfil this description. This proves that inheritance into the kingdom of God is also inheritance into eternity bliss. Surely none could deny that entrance into eternal life equals eternal inheritance. To equate this company with unbelievers is to butcher the text, bless what God curses, curse what God blesses, redefine clear and explicit biblical terms and invent a third group of people that Scripture knows nothing about.

The only other group that Christ recognizes is “the goats” (vv 33 & 34), who are labelled as “ye cursed” (v 41); who are cast “into everlasting fire” (v 41) and receive “everlasting punishment” (v 46).

To “inherit the kingdom” (v 34) and “life eternal” (v 46) and to escape “everlasting fire” (v 41) or “everlasting punishment” (v 46) comes through a personal faith in Christ alone, not good works as you insinuate. The reality is, believers care for the brethren - if they truly know Christ. Scripture depicts the genuine believer (the one that has found Christ through grace alone, through faith alone) as one who loves the brethren.

One of the great problems many encounter when trying to ascertain the meaning of such parables as this is that they feel compelled to view it through the lens of a well-formulated school of thought rather than letting such a simple allegory speak for itself. Many modern-day end-time students are so indoctrinated with a complicated system of theology that they are impaired from comprehending the meaning and application of many of the parables. They are forced to place a stretched meaning upon the narrative that correlates with their existing dogma. This results in the most amazing and fanciful of meanings to be placed upon the story.

For example, let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage before progressing further.

· This passage is describing the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
· The coming of the Lord is shown also to be judgment day.
· The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
· These are both judged at His appearing.
· One group is righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
· The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
· They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
· The good receive eternal life.
· The bad obtain eternal punishment.
· There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

 

[jgr]

But the BIG difference is, the coming of Christ is a literal physical climactic event. You cannot spiritualize it away to fit Preterism.

Acts 1:10 says, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?
Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him?
Did the Gentiles also wail because of Him?

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Unarguably there are numerous references to the Second Coming throughout the entirety of Scripture, such as those that you've cited. They cannot be denied.

But neither can Matthew 24:34 be denied. It refers to the generation at that time. ("3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;")

Therefore, all of the descriptions which precede Matthew 24:34, recondite though some may be,
must be interpreted in reference to the events of 70 AD, or those in close proximity thereto.

They answer the disciples' first question in Matthew 24:3: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

In Matthew 24:4-34, Jesus describes the signs that would precede and confirm His coming in power and judgment in 70 AD to destroy the existing old covenant order, and establish the New.
Other Scriptures attest e.g. Matthew 16:28; Matthew 26:64.

These descriptions combine both the literal and the metaphoric. The former are demonstrably historically verifiable. The latter are supported by numerous Scriptural precedents and examples.

Matthew 24:36 is a demarcation. It and what follows describe the Second Coming. They answer the disciples' second question in Matthew 24:3: ""Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of the end of the world"?

The expression "that day" is found numerous times throughout Scripture. Frequently, it refers to
the Second Coming: Matthew 7:22; Matthew 26:29; Luke 10:12; Luke 21:34; 1 Thessalonians 5:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2 Timothy 1:18; 2 Timothy 4:8

In contrast to the signs portending the 70 AD judgment, the approach of the Second Coming will be signless, and its arrival unexpected. Only the Father knows its time.
(Matthew 24:36-44).

Parousia70, Claninja, and Mkgal1 have presented cogent Scriptural evidence in defense of much of the foregoing.

None of us denies Scripture's testimonies regarding the Second Coming. Rather, we seek to
correctly discern and understand each Scriptural message in its context, reject private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), and accurately handle the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

That is a mark toward which we all press.

 

[pasifika]

You are imputing something into this that it is not literally stating.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.
Isaiah 65:24 says, “They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.”

Isaiah is passionate in using synonymous parallelism. He also is passionate about employing the Hebrew word Lo' to tell us what will not be happening in the eternal state.

Isaiah 65:24 says,

They shall not (Lo') labour in vain
nor (Lo') bring forth [for] trouble

Let us remind ourselves that the word Lo' it is a negation. It is telling us what will not happen. It is not saying children will be born on the new earth as now, but that they will not be born.

the former shall not (Lo') be remembered,
nor (Lo') come into mind.

This is clearly telling us that the old corrupt temporal decaying arrangement is going to be replaced by the new perfect eternal regime. The promises in this prophecy in regard to the new heavens and new earth is not more of the same to dread but rather the opposite – a brand new arrangement free of death and decay.

Isaiah 65:24 says, “for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.”

I am not sure where you see babies being birthed here. I feel you are imputing things into this reading that aren't there. Where does it say babes are born? It doesn't say they will have offspring, only that they will bring their offspring with them into the eternal state and that they will be blessed. That is just a reminder of the covenant promise that believers hold unto. I am sure you believe it is possible to bring our saved children with us to heaven?

Whilst there is much about eternity that has been concealed from the finite mind, we do have glimpses of what it will be like in Scripture. Our reading above is one such passage. In this reading we see the difference between our age and the age to come. In this age we labor much in vain. Also, through the fallen nature, we bring forth our progeny for trouble. Why? All men are born sinners and therefore prone to rebel and head for trouble. The Bible says that we are all “by nature the children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). The new heavens and a new earth will be completely different. Our wearisome labours in this life will come to an end, all our service then will be joyous and tireless unto God. Moreover, childbirth shall be no more.

Those that imagine that the redeemed are going to spend all eternity playing harps around a lake with their halos blowing in the wind are gravely mistaken. I don't believe this reading represents such an expectation. I feel that we will gladly and willingly serve the Lord in whatever tasks He requires. Anything that we perform for the Lord will not be tiresome or laborious – it will be a blessing and an honour. After all, we are in the eternal state. That does not negate the rest that we will enjoy in that age. The rest we will experience will be in enjoying our Saviour. It is not saying we will be in a perpetual state of laziness. Many try to explain away the eternal state with their finite understanding. The spiritual truths that are presented in Scripture in relation to eternity are done in such a manner to let mortal creatures understand the eternal bliss that will exist on the glorified new earth.

There will be no more procreation after the Lord’s return. The fact is, there will be no more marriage, pregnancy or births on the new earth. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” Isaiah agrees with this – when speaking of the new heavens and a new earth. Isaiah 65:24 is simply saying that the righteous are blessed, and their seed is blessed. In the eternal state the redeemed will not "bring forth for trouble." The time of such is over. The time of the sinner is finished. Only the righteous will inhabit this glorified domain.

It doesn't say they will have offspring on the new earth (that is a Premil theory), just, that the righteous “are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.” This tells us, the redeemed won’t make heaven alone. Mother and fathers will see their believing offspring join them. The circle in many homes will be unbroken. This shows us God’s faithfulness in gathering in the offspring of the redeemed. Blessing is indeed passed down from generation for the righteous, just like curses are to the wicked.



Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more death on the new earth. You say there is death on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more pain on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sorrow on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there are no more tears on the new earth. You say there is tears on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more corruption on the new earth. You say there is corruption on the new earth.

2 Peter 3:13 tells us that the new earth will be marked by “righteousness.” You say it will be known for righteousness and unrighteousness on the new earth.

Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that there is coming a day where “there shall be no more curse.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

While the elect of God finally enters into eternal bless, the wicked correspondingly experience eternal torment. They are shown to be banished into everlasting punishment.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying. The final goal is the final creation of a new heavens and new earth characterized by justice, righteousness and perfection.

Great post SG...

 

[sovereigngrace]

Unarguably there are numerous references to the Second Coming throughout the entirety of Scripture, such as those that you've cited. They cannot be denied.

But neither can Matthew 24:34 be denied. It refers to the generation at that time. ("3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;")

Therefore, all of the descriptions which precede Matthew 24:34, recondite though some may be,
must be interpreted in reference to the events of 70 AD, or those in close proximity thereto.

They answer the disciples' first question in Matthew 24:3: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

In Matthew 24:4-34, Jesus describes the signs that would precede and confirm His coming in power and judgment in 70 AD to destroy the existing old covenant order, and establish the New.
Other Scriptures attest e.g. Matthew 16:28; Matthew 26:64.

These descriptions combine both the literal and the metaphoric. The former are demonstrably historically verifiable. The latter are supported by numerous Scriptural precedents and examples.

Matthew 24:36 is a demarcation. It and what follows describe the Second Coming. They answer the disciples' second question in Matthew 24:3: ""Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of the end of the world"?

The expression "that day" is found numerous times throughout Scripture. Frequently, it refers to
the Second Coming: Matthew 7:22; Matthew 26:29; Luke 10:12; Luke 21:34; 1 Thessalonians 5:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2 Timothy 1:18; 2 Timothy 4:8

In contrast to the signs portending the 70 AD judgment, the approach of the Second Coming will be signless, and its arrival unexpected. Only the Father knows its time.
(Matthew 24:36-44).

Parousia70, Claninja, and Mkgal1 have presented cogent Scriptural evidence in defense of much of the foregoing.

None of us denies Scripture's testimonies regarding the Second Coming. Rather, we seek to
correctly discern and understand each Scriptural message in its context, reject private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), and accurately handle the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

That is a mark toward which we all press.

Thanks your response.

We are 95% in agreement. But I would suggest that Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33 is the demarcation.

Matthew 24:35-51: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 13:31-37: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Luke 21:33-38: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.”

(1) I agree with you re "that day." It normally refers to the second coming. But please see highlighted above.

(2) A careful study of the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, which some Premils are forced to redefine, shows your interpretation to be in error. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as the “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly in every case the two Greek words ouranos and gē are employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth. Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

(3) What is in view is clearly not a localized event. The very use of “heaven and earth,” without any attached qualification, allows us to understand this as a universal event. The repeated literal meaning of the two Greek words when combined together supports this conclusion.

(4) This is reinforced by the fact the recipients being warned are not merely the residents of the city of Jerusalem, as Full Preterists argue, but a global audience. As Luke 21:35 states: “For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” This could not be clearer!

(5) The detail here fits in with other climactic Scripture that describes the very same literal future event. 2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Please note the highlighted (in blue) references to Christ's glorious coming.

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth [Gr. gē] and the heaven [Gr. ouranos] fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. gē] were passed away [Gr. parerchomai]; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

The renewal of the earth is carefully tied to the renewal of fallen man; manifestly, as at the beginning so at the end. It is at this finishing stage that all the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed from the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously renewed by way of a fiery renewal.

Finally, (6), when talking about the removal of the current “heaven and earth,” the 5 major similar texts, describing regeneration of both at the coming of the Lord, use the same Greek word parerchomai indicating the ‘passing away’ of the current corrupt natural arrangement we are experiencing now and its replacement with a brand new incorrupt creation.