• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured Daniel's 70th week

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Arnold_Fishman, Jan 18, 2020.

Tags:
  1. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Hello jgr, so who was standing that Jesus reference to in Matthew 24:15...regarding the Abomination of desolation?
    If Jesus was referring to Daniel 9:27...how is it that He (Jesus) was speaking about Himself 70 years after His death? I ask this question because people claim that the abomination of desolation in daniel 9:27 is reference to Jesus...
     
  2. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    The 10 horns along with the Beast will make war with the Lamb in Revelation 19:14..
    Do you think this 10 horns are the same as the ones in daniel?
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,423
    Non-Denom
    Matthew 24
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Luke 21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


    It was the Roman armies, bearing pagan ensigns considered an abomination by the Jews, advancing upon Jerusalem to wreak its desolation in 70 AD; who were the abomination of desolation.
     
  4. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    So are you saying that Daniel 9:27 is about the roman armies not Jesus?
    Was the roman armies also make the covenant and ceased sacrifices and offering in daniel 9:27?
     
  5. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

    +404
    United States
    Anglican
    Single
    The "then" is referring to the context of verses 15-20; when you see the abomination of desolation, which Luke tells us is Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Now, we already saw that this happened in 67 AD when Cestius Gallus, the Roman general, laid siege to Jerusalem. The Great Tribulation is not an event yet future to us. It was "then," during the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans in the first century. This is made abundantly clear in the parallel text in Luke's gospel.



    Luke 21:20-24 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
    Notice who in particular verse 23 says the tribulation will come upon-- "the land", which is Jerusalem and "this people," which refers to the first century Jews, not the future world. Verse 24 gives us added details as to exactly what will happen in the Great Tribulation. We will look more closely at the details of verse 24 in a few moments. Right now I want us to examine:



    Luke 21:22 (NKJV) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."
    Luke tells us here that ALL things which are written will be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. What does he mean by that? "All things which are written," refers to prophecy. All prophecy was to be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel tells us this very same thing in Daniel 9:24:

    Daniel was told that 70 weeks had been determined on his people Israel, and the city of Jerusalem. By the end of this prophetic time period, God promised that six things would be accomplished. One of the things that Daniel was told would happen by the end of that period was that God would "seal up vision and prophecy". The Hebrew commentaries are in agreement on the meaning of to "seal up vision and prophecy" -- they say it means the end and complete fulfillment of all prophecy.

    Daniel's prophecy, then, tells of the time when all prophecy would cease to be given and what had been given would be fulfilled. When would this be? Daniel's vision ends with the destruction of Jerusalem which we know occurred in 70 AD (Daniel 9:26):

    So Luke is saying the same thing that Daniel said, which is that at the time Jerusalem is destroyed all prophecy will be fulfilled. What does that include? That would include the prophecy of the Second coming, the resurrection, the new heavens and earth, everything prophesied to Israel would be fulfilled at the time of Jerusalem's destruction.

    The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21)
    Daniel is about Antiochus IV and the Abomination of Tribulation is when he defiled the Temple by sacrificing a pig to Zeus.. Why don't you read it?
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,423
    Non-Denom
    This particular discussion is about the Matthew 24 tribulation of 70 AD.
     
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +336
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Correct, apart from Matthew 24:29. It is out of place and NOT parallel.

    In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

    Mark 13:14-20 says, when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

    This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

    Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +336
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I don't (as a rule) visit outside links as I cannot discuss the matter with them.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    +336
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    1. There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?
    2. Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret appearance in this text.
    3. How possibly did “all the tribes of the earth mourn” in AD70? And for what purpose? Surely it is plain from the text and history that this is not a localized event but rather a global event?
    4. When and how did the “angels gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” in AD70?
    5. In what way did “heaven and earth … pass away” in AD70? In what way did this notable cataclysmic event “come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth … as a snare”? Surely it is plain from the text and history that this is not a localized event but rather a global event at the end of time?
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,423
    Non-Denom
    Matthew 24:29 uses the same words as in the preceding verses.
    It uses the same expressions as in the preceding verses.
    In a comparison of Scripture to Scripture, there is every reason to believe that it is referring to the same event.
    As inspired Scripture, it is not out of place.
    As inspired Scripture, it is referring to the same event.
     
  11. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the army surrounding the city (Jerusalem )...
    Matthew 24:15..describing the same event as in Luke 21:20..but Matthew 24:15 focus on someone standing in the "holy place" not armies surrounding the city as mention in Luke 21. ..

    Daniel 8 is about Antiochus not Daniel 9:27
     
  12. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Of course Matthew 24:15, Jesus quote the Abomination of desolation from the book of Daniel so there is definitely a link there...
    So it cannot be Daniel 8, because Antiochus had already dead...and is Not Jesus (in Daniel 9:27)because He already die and resurrected way before AD70...Now it left one option and is the antichrist in the future where he will rein 3.5 years before the return of Christ...and that is in my opinion the right one...
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +967
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    I used to think that as well, but no longer do. If that part belongs during the 70th week like I have been proposing, 70 AD events don't fit, in that case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  14. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

    +404
    United States
    Anglican
    Single
    Danielis writing about Antiochus IV.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,423
    Non-Denom
    The word "antichrist" is not found in the OT.

    There is no word for "antichrist" in biblical Hebrew.
     
  16. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

    +404
    United States
    Anglican
    Single

    Luke 21:21 – Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of her [Jerusalem] get out, and let not those who are out in the country come into her [Jerusalem];

    Luke 21:22 – For those are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], that all things that are written may be fulfilled.

    Luke 21:23 – Alas for those who are pregnant and for those who have babies which they are nursing in those days! For great misery {and} anguish {and} distress shall be upon the land and indignation {and} punishment {and} retribution upon this people.

    Luke 21:24 describes the tribulation that the Christ speaks of in Matt 24:21.

    Luke 21:24 – They will fall by the mouth {and} the edge of the sword and will be led away as captives to {and} among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the nations [heathen world] until the times of the nations [heathen world] are fulfilled (completed).
     
  17. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Can you show a time line for Daniel 9:24-27...
    So I can see if Antiochus is the one describe in Daniel 9:27..thanks
     
  18. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Okay sorry about that...maybe I use the explanation Jesus gave of the one standing in the holy place in reference to Daniel, in Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14... 'the Abomination that causes desolation '...
     
  19. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

    750
    +145
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Explain Luke 21:27 Then. ..."at that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great Glory"...
    Also, explain Matthew 24:29...because it link with Matthew 24:21 you mention above...
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,675
    Christian
    Married
    Again, this contradicts the words of Christ, in that he did not ascend to the Father until 40 days after his resurrection

    John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’”

    Peter even ties Jesus' not being abandoned to Hades by the resurrection. Peter explicitly associates the BOTH not being abandoned in Hades and His body not seeing decay to the resurrection.

    Acts 2:31-32 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

    1 corinthians 15:35-38 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

    Scripture is clear that we don't go to heaven naked.

    2 corinthians 5:2-4 For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.
     
Loading...