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Featured Daniel's 70th week

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Arnold_Fishman, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't just Roman armies. Other armies from the Roman Empire fought under the Command of Titus..to include Syrians, Egyptians and Arabs. The Gentiles trampled Jerusalem for 42 months.

    It gets a bit weird. Titus troops were only there for 5 months until they destroyed the Temple in August 70AD.

    It was not the Romans who trampled on Jerusalem for 42 months in 66-70 AD.

    Instead, Jerusalem was trampled by the Zealots, Galileans, Idumeans, etc. They were the Gentiles spoken of in Revelation 11:1-2.
     
  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    I see two tribulations. The second definitely relates to prior to the second coming. The context suggests that and other similar scripture proves that.
     
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 prevents you seeing multiple truths. It is the pivotal event in history for you and the focus of your postings.

    The reality is the opposite. It is pointless engaging with someone who refuses to acknowledge and articulate any teaching on a literal physical visible future appearance of Christ to literally physically rescue His people on the last climactic day.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This does not address that neither the thief nor Steven went to heaven upon death.

    1.) Jesus tells the thief he will be in paradise. But it definitely wasn't "today" as Jesus didn't go to heaven upon death that same day.

    Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Jesus himself, after the resurrection, literally says he had not yet ascended to the Father.

    John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


    2.) Jesus gave up his spirit to the Father.
    Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last

    And yet He did not ascend to the Father at death.
    John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Thus If Jesus didn't go to the Father when he gave up His spirit, then Jesus receiving Stephen's spirit doesn't mean that stephen went to heaven either. In fact, Luke states he fell asleep.
    Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    So I'm still trying to understand when you believe the transition of believers going to heaven upon death took place, as it wasn't at the cross.
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is but one tribulation in the chapter, first identified in verse 21, referring to the tribulation of 70 AD.

    Jesus qualifies verse 29 as referring to the same event as verses 19, 21 and 22, by describing it as "the tribulation of those days".
     
  6. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    I see zero evidence for more than one tribulation which was local and over with the fall of Masada..

    Or, you could say all Christians will always have tribulations.
     
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    ... yes, those days that precede the only and only second coming of Christ.
     
  8. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I see where they gave the gentiles less laws to follow, but I can't seem to find where the Jerusalem counsel stated Jews were required to follow less laws.

    Let me give you an earthly example. When I was a child, my church had a dress code for its members: dresses for women, button up shirt and ties for men. The members were expected to abide by this rule or they were "talked to" by the elders, deacons, and pastors. However, if a member broke this rule it didn't impact their salvation. The church however, did not push this same rule on non members. Eventually, over the years, as the church started to have more and more visitors, it relaxed the dress code rules, eventually doing away with the requirement of dresses for women and button-up shirt and ties for men.



    I don't necessarily believe Paul was wrong. I believe he was trying to win the jews, who were zealous for the law, to Christ, by actions he knew didn't provide salvation. Thus he became as one under the law to those under the law.

    1 corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law



    I agree the sacrifice never took place. This doesn't negate that James asked Paul to perform one in order to appease the Jews.

    Not at all. As hebrews states animal sacrifices never actually took away sins.

    Hebrews 10:3-4 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    They were only a shadow that pointed to Christ's ultimate sacrifice

    Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.


    The old obsolete covenant had not yet vanished, but was in process of fading away

    Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    2 corinthiand 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

    I view the time period between between the Israelites leaving egypt (40 years) and entering the promise land as a foreshadow of 30ad to 70ad (40 years)

    The old covenant was established upon Israel leaving slavery and Egypt, although Israel had not yet entered the promise land. Over a period of 40 years Israel, God destroyed the unfaithful of Israel and those who wanted to return to slavery in Egypt. But the faithful remnant entered the promise land after those 40 years to fully receive the benefits of the old covenant. Anyone who was born into Israel after this point and was faithful to the covenant, reaped the full benefits of the blessings of God.

    This prefigures the new covenant.

    Christ established the new covenant by his death and freed us from sin and the binds of the old covenant. Over a period of 40 years God judged Israel through the apostles, eventually destroyed the unfaithful who wanted to remain slaves to the law. However, I believe the faithful remnant were able to enter heaven after these 40 years, just as the faithful remnant entered the promise land. And now all those born into the faithful body of Christ reap the full benefits of the covenant.
     
  9. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the tribulation and the second coming are connected.

    I know Paul and the apostles and the early Christians of the 7 churches expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes, but evidently they were ALL wrong.
     
  10. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Yes they did. The text says it.

    You don't seem to understand the difference between Him being caught up in spirit, the resurrection and the ascension. His spirit was commended up to His Father upon death. The penitent thief joined Him there. Where was the Father? Heaven!!! Christ's physical ascension occurred 40 days after the resurrection.
     
  11. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Very well put!
     
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Those who imagine He came in AD70 were/are equally wrong. There were no witnesses that testify that Jesus came then. No eye saw Him. That is because He never came then. He is coming in power and final glory on the last day.
    1. There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?
    2. Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret appearance in this text.
    3. How possibly did “all the tribes of the earth mourn” in AD70? And for what purpose? Surely it is plain from the text and history that this is not a localized event but rather a global event?
    4. When and how did the “angels gather together the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” in AD70?
    5. In what way did “heaven and earth … pass away” in AD70? In what way did this notable cataclysmic event “come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth … as a snare”? Surely it is plain from the text and history that this is not a localized event but rather a global event at the end of time?
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    This contradicts John's account where Jesus, after his death and resurrection, specifically states he not yet ascended to the Father.

    John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    If Jesus' spirit had ascended to the Father, then Jesus' words are contradicted.

    Since scripture states Jesus did not ascend to the Father until after his resurrection, I'll stick with that instead of your polar opposite claim which states he did ascend to heaven, the came back down into a resurrected body, then ascended again.
     
  14. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    He never ascended bodily immediately, only in spirit after death. His glorified body only ascended 40 days after His resurrection. We too rise in spirit upon death, and physically at the general resurrection when Jesus comes.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-55 says, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

    When did/do the living experience the change from a living physical into a spirit body of any kind, and how?

    Must they die first, and their spirit be immediately translated into heaven?
     
  15. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    The Book of Daniel is mostly misunderstood... and some Christians will refuse to study it properly.

    If you’ve been told that the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 equals 490 years, you’ve been misled
    [​IMG]


    The prophecy of the “seventy weeks” in Daniel, chapter 9, has been one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. The challenge has always been to locate the proper starting point for calculating the weeks. Traditional expositors have done so in error.

    The Bible says that the “seventy weeks” are to start after a decree to restore Jerusalem to an anointed one, who is also a prince. Traditional interpretations have interpreted the reference to a “decree” as referring to a decree by a Persian king, and that the “seventy weeks” is a way of saying 490 years (a week being seven years). Both assumptions are incorrect, and using either leads to an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9.

    If you’ve been told that the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 equals 490 years, you’ve been misled – The Prophecy Society of Atlanta
     
  16. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello, the tribulation here is definitely Not AD70 is the events leading up to the second coming...verse 29 is referring to the event from the abomination of desolation in verse 15 up to the second coming....
    Where is the Abomination of desolation in AD70?
     
  17. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about? I believe the 490 years are historic. Where did you get that from my questions?

    Please address them
     
  18. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    One of Satan’s biggest modern-day deceptions is that the 70th week of Daniel 9 is in the future!

    [​IMG]
    Quite a few well-known Bible teachers, some of whom have been the most visible prophecy expositors in Christian media circles in recent years, interpret Daniel 9:26-27 as referring to the antichrist making a covenant with Israel during the 70th week in the “Seventy Weeks” of Daniel, which they say occurs in the future at the … Continue reading

    Here are a few articles about misinterpretation of the Daniel prophecies – The Prophecy Society of Atlanta
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 24:19 refers to "those days" of 70 AD:
    And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    Matthew 24:21 refers to great "tribulation" of 70 AD:
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Matthew 24:22 refers to "those days" of 70 AD:
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, what does "the tribulation of those days" refer to?
    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    The answer is self-evident.
     
  20. summerville

    summerville Well-Known Member

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    I have linked the studies of Daniel scholars.

    Scroll down and look at the following.

    Here are a few articles about misinterpretation of the Daniel prophecies – The Prophecy Society of Atlanta

    One of Satan’s biggest modern-day deceptions is that the 70th week of Daniel 9 is in the future!

    [​IMG]
    Quite a few well-known Bible teachers, some of whom have been the most visible prophecy expositors in Christian media circles in recent years, interpret Daniel 9:26-27 as referring to the antichrist making a covenant with Israel during the 70th week in the “Seventy Weeks” of Daniel, which they say occurs in the future at the … Continue reading

    Here’s the correct identification of the Four Beasts in Daniel 7 (most study Bible notes are still stuck in the 19th century)

    [​IMG]
    The entire Book of Daniel describes an exact chronology and detailed history of the Jewish people and must be interpreted from that viewpoint. The seventh chapter of Daniel describes a period of Jewish history involving four kings described as beasts, with the fourth beast having ten horns, each horn in turn representing a king. Many … Continue reading
     
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