Daniel's 70th week

[sovereigngrace]

So, you honestly don't believe the red highlighted verse is about Jerusalem's destruction in 66-70ad?

Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Both the prostitute and 1st century Jerusalem was charged with all the righteous bloodshed. Or do you believe there are other entities in history charged with all the righteous blood shed?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

How about speaking about the future literal physical second coming of Christ for once, if you actually believe in it. All you want to talk about is AD70. Obviously that is all you think about. After all, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

1. Is the second coming of Christ a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
2. Is the resurrection of the dead a past event, an ongoing process or a literal physical future climactic event?
3. Please list the Scriptures you believe support these?
4. Tell us exactly what all happens at this coming?

 

[jgr]

According to the book of Daniel though, the abomination that causeth desolation takes the daily sacrifice away. In what way did the Romans do that in the first century?

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

These are all speaking of the same events, in my opinion, and that these are meaning the AOD Jesus was meaning in the Discourse.

Messiah caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at Calvary.

In which verse is Messiah identified as an abomination?

 

[DavidPT]

Messiah caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at Calvary.

In which verse is Messiah identified as an abomination?

Exactly. Thus why Daniel 9:27 can't be meaning what you are meaning then.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27 tells us that Daniel 11:31 is meaning in the midst of the 70th week. While Daniel 12:11 is telling us that from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

What do any of these events have to do with Jesus and the Romans in the first century?


What did Jesus say in the Discourse?

Did He not say to consult the book of Daniel, in regards to the AOD meant? But where in the book of Daniel? Only in Daniel 9 and those last 2 verses? That would seem pretty strange if that were the case. What further clarity do these last 2 verses alone in Daniel 9 provide in hopes of helping the reader to better understand what Jesus was meaning in the Discourse? Imagine if you were reading or hearing these words in the first century, then only consulting the last 2 verses in Daniel 9 for further clarity? Surely then Jesus was meaning to look in the book of Daniel for further clarity besides just these last 2 verses in Daniel 9, thus why I also provided the passages from Daniel 11 and 12 and added them to the mix.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, you honestly don't believe the red highlighted verse is about Jerusalem's destruction in 66-70ad?

Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Both the prostitute and 1st century Jerusalem was charged with all the righteous bloodshed. Or do you believe there are other entities in history charged with all the righteous blood shed?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

If a prostitute is a misrepresentation of God’s natural plan for a woman, then the harlot of Babylon is a misrepresentation of God’s spiritual plan for mankind. The harlot here is a misrepresentation of the Church. It is a religious body. Satan is always trying to mimic, distort and corrupt God’s blueprint. In my opinion: the harlot broadly represents false religion (in all its varying components). In a narrow sense I can understand why many relate to the RCC. She carries all the ugly religious traits described by the harlot.

 

[jgr]

Exactly. Thus why Daniel 9:27 can't be meaning what you are meaning then.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 9:27 tells us that Daniel 11:31 is meaning in the midst of the 70th week. While Daniel 12:11 is telling us that from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

What do any of these events have to do with Jesus and the Romans in the first century?


What did Jesus say in the Discourse?

Did He not say to consult the book of Daniel, in regards to the AOD meant? But where in the book of Daniel? Only in Daniel 9 and those last 2 verses? That would seem pretty strange if that were the case. What further clarity do these last 2 verses alone in Daniel 9 provide in hopes of helping the reader to better understand what Jesus was meaning in the Discourse? Imagine if you were reading or hearing these words in the first century, then only consulting the last 2 verses in Daniel 9 for further clarity? Surely then Jesus was meaning to look in the book of Daniel for further clarity besides just these last 2 verses in Daniel 9, thus why I also provided the passages from Daniel 11 and 12 and added them to the mix.

Messiah caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at Calvary.

You claim that the abomination caused them to cease.

In which verse is Messiah identified as the abomination?

Where does Messiah appear in Daniel 11 and 12?

 

[DavidPT]

Messiah caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at Calvary.

You claim that the abomination caused them to cease.

In which verse is Messiah identified as the abomination?

Where does Messiah appear in Daniel 11 and 12?

You are totally misunderstanding what I was even meaning. So let me try to clarify. I agree that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrificing. And since Daniel 9:27 mentions abominations, we can know from that that Jesus is not meant anywhere in Daniel 9:27. No way could I have been suggesting Jesus was an abomination somehow, which is utterly ludicrous to begin with that you would claim I was claiming that, the fact I don't even take Daniel 9:27 to involve Jesus to begin with.

You also asked---Where does Messiah appear in Daniel 11 and 12? It seems to me that if I am correct that Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11, are all speaking of the same events, and that the 70th week happens in the end of this age, the following would be a cpl of places that Messiah would need to appear though there is no mention of Messiah in any of the texts. It's called logically deducing things based on comparing Scriptures to other related Scriptures. Or better yet, interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The text indicates---yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

How does he come to his end? By the Messiah returning in the end of this age, thus putting a stop to him once and for all. IOW the one meant in Daniel 11:45 is the same one meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:8---And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Where that appears to be referring to the one meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 ---Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Which is exactly what the one meant in Daniel 11:45 does according to the following verse in that same chapter.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


As to Daniel 12.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Can't have a resurrection of the dead without Jesus appearing first.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Daniel can't stand in his lot at the end of the days without Messiah having appeared first in order to make it possible for Daniel to even do that at the appointed time.

 

[jgr]

You are totally misunderstanding what I was even meaning. So let me try to clarify. I agree that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrificing. And since Daniel 9:27 mentions abominations, we can know from that that Jesus is not meant anywhere in Daniel 9:27. No way could I have been suggesting Jesus was an abomination somehow, which is utterly ludicrous to begin with that you would claim I was claiming that, the fact I don't even take Daniel 9:27 to involve Jesus to begin with.

Daniel 9:27: "...in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."

Your words:
"I agree that Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrificing"
"we can know from that that Jesus is not meant anywhere in Daniel 9:27"

How can Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrificing if Jesus is not meant anywhere in Daniel 9:27?

 

[DavidPT]

How can Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrificing if Jesus is not meant anywhere in Daniel 9:27?

Wouldn't we know that from a passage such as the following, for example?


Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

It is not required that Daniel 9:27 has to be about Jesus in order for this passage in Hebrews 10 to be true. This passage in Hebrews 10 is true, regardless.

 

[pasifika]

No problem...the Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 abomination of desolation refer to the Roman armies invading and desolating the holy city of Jerusalem, as explained previously in post 743; and confirmed by Luke 21:20. These are in turn the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:27 abominations (Roman armies) with which he (Messiah) shall make it (Jerusalem) desolate, again a confirming reference to the Roman armies which were Messiah's instruments of judgment and destruction.

Okay, can we go back and read Daniel 9:27 again...He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven, and in the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation....

If you say that He (Messiah )..was actually using the Roman armies to carry out this abomination of desolation in AD70, in reference to Daniel 9:27..

So, Daniel 9:27 or the 70th week ended 3.5 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70?
Your 70th week finished at AD73.5... (ad70+3.5 yrs)

Also, was there a covenant made by the Romans with the Jews around that same time of ad70?
Reference to that is appreciated...

 

[jgr]

Wouldn't we know that from a passage such as the following, for example?


Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

It is not required that Daniel 9:27 has to be about Jesus in order for this passage in Hebrews 10 to be true. This passage in Hebrews 10 is true, regardless.

The Hebrews 10 passage is about Jesus.

The Hebrews 10 passage affirms and confirms that "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27.

Are you claiming that the writer of Hebrews does not believe that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is Jesus?

 

[pasifika]

Its useful when we realise that the 'weeks' are the Sabbatical cycle of years. The Antiochus abomination actually happened in the 42nd week. Anyway, here is a timeline.



View attachment 272426

Thanks, so the abomination that causes desolation is at ad30?

 

[jgr]

Okay, can we go back and read Daniel 9:27 again...He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven, and in the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up the Abomination that causes desolation....

If you say that He (Messiah )..was actually using the Roman armies to carry out this abomination of desolation in AD70, in reference to Daniel 9:27..

So, Daniel 9:27 or the 70th week ended 3.5 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70?
Your 70th week finished at AD73.5... (ad70+3.5 yrs)

Also, was there a covenant made by the Romans with the Jews around that same time of ad70?
Reference to that is appreciated...

Daniel 9:26 informs us that the desolations would occur during the war.

The war did not occur during the 70 weeks, which ended in 34 AD.

The war occurred during the 70 AD period.

The covenant was confirmed by Messiah. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[pasifika]

Daniel 9:26 informs us that the desolations would occur during the war.

The war did not occur during the 70 weeks, which ended in 34 AD.

The war occurred during the 70 AD period.

The covenant was confirmed by Messiah. (Matthew 26:28)

But Daniel 9:27...put this abominations of desolation in the middle of the 70th week..

 

[Christian Gedge]

Thanks, so the abomination that causes desolation is at ad30?

The abomination in Daniel 9 is described as an 'overspreading abomination' because it overspread from ad30 to ad70, eventually ending in desolation. It was the renewal of animal sacrifice in defiance of Christ's "It is finished!"

 

[jgr]

But Daniel 9:27...put this abominations of desolation in the middle of the 70th week..

The length of the interval between the 70th week and the war is not specified.

From history, it is known to be between 30 and 40 years.

 

[DavidPT]

Are you claiming that the writer of Hebrews does not believe that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is Jesus?

Let's compare the 2 accounts.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Show anywhere in Hebrews 10 where we can find this portion of Daniel 9:27----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That part is obviously connected with this part in that same verse---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---yet I can't find a single mention of this part in Hebrews 10---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Maybe the reason why is because nothing in Daniel 9:27 is speaking of any of the events recorded in Hebrews 10. But if Daniel 9:27 is supposed to be referring to some of the same events recorded in Hebrews 10, like you are proposing, why is Hebrews 10 then totally silent about this part in Daniel 9:27---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

 

[pasifika]

The abomination in Daniel 9 is described as an 'overspreading abomination' because it overspread from ad30 to ad70, eventually ending in desolation. It was the renewal of animal sacrifice in defiance of Christ's "It is finished!"

So what you're saying that the 70th week of Daniel 9 where it must ended at the city being made desolate is extended for another 36yrs (from ad34 where the 70th week is finished to ad70 where desolation is complete)...

So God must have been wrong in saying that 70th week means (7yrs) not 7years then extra 36yrs after that (from ad34-ad70)....

 

[jgr]

Let's compare the 2 accounts.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Show anywhere in Hebrews 10 where we can find this portion of Daniel 9:27----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

That part is obviously connected with this part in that same verse---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---yet I can't find a single mention of this part in Hebrews 10---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Maybe the reason why is because nothing in Daniel 9:27 is speaking of any of the events recorded in Hebrews 10. But if Daniel 9:27 is supposed to be referring to some of the same events recorded in Hebrews 10, like you are proposing, why is Hebrews 10 then totally silent about this part in Daniel 9:27---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

You didn't answer my question.

The NT writers were intimately familiar with the OT prophets.

Are you claiming that the writer of Hebrews does not believe that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is Jesus?

 

[pasifika]

The length of the interval between the 70th week and the war is not specified.

From history, it is known to be between 30 and 40 years.

So you disagree with Daniel 9:27...where the abomination is in the middle of the 70th week..and you think the abominations that causes desolation is 30+ years from what Daniel said because of history?

 

[DavidPT]

You didn't answer my question.

The NT writers were intimately familiar with the OT prophets.

Are you claiming that the writer of Hebrews does not believe that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is Jesus?

How would I know, or how would anyone know, what the writer of Hebrews 10 thought about Daniel 9:27 one way or the other? I don't see where he discloses that to us in Hebrews 10. But that aside, in order for that writer to have believed the he in Daniel 9:27 to be meaning Jesus, he would have also had to have believed that the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26 is also meaning Jesus, since it's obvious that the pronouns in verse 27 have to be referring to the prince that shall come in verse 26, and that he would have been intelligent enough to easily grasp that fact.