Daniel's 70th week

[Al Touthentop]

So you are actually quite a mild and normal Partial Preterist compared to many on this board? Lol.

No idea what that means. I read the bible and that's what it says. If there is a thousand year reign, and that number is symbolic, not literal, it's happening right now. Jesus was made king.

Ephesians 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

 

[sovereigngrace]

No idea what that means. I read the bible and that's what it says. If there is a thousand year reign, and that number is symbolic, not literal, it's happening right now. Jesus was made king.

Ephesians 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

I agree with what you said previously, apart from the fact that we are still not in the age to come/NHNE, or at the last day, so that would mean we are still in the last days, in my opinion.

 

[Al Touthentop]

No Christian is looking for the Anti-christ for their salvation.

I don't know why this is something that needed to be stated in response to what I wrote. It seems a non-sequitur.

What Christians are supposed to be looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of Jesus to them for the rapture/resurrection.

Which is the last day. No more days after that. And the earth will be destroyed that day. So no thousand years of Christ punishing the nations while Christians sit in their lawn chairs drinking beer and watch their enemies punished.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I agree with what you said previously, apart from the fact that we are still not in the age to come/NHNE, or at the last day, so that would mean we are still in the last days, in my opinion.

We could say that. I am just not comfortable saying it's "the" last days of old testament prophecy which were speaking of a very specific last days.

 

[DavidPT]

No idea what that means. I read the bible and that's what it says. If there is a thousand year reign, and that number is symbolic, not literal, it's happening right now. Jesus was made king.

Ephesians 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In this thread you claimed all Premils are antichrists. You don't have to agree with Premil, but that's going a bit far, don't you think? Some early church fathers, such as Justin Martyr, who was literally beheaded for professing to be a Christian, was actually an antichrist according to your line of thinking. I don't know how some of you can live with yourselves sometimes?

 

[Al Touthentop]

In this thread you claimed all Premils are antichrists. You don't have to agree with Premil, but that's going a bit far, don't you think?

Why is it too far? Jesus himself tells us that his kingdom is not of this world. Premils reject this totally.

Billy Graham actually said that God didn't know that his people would reject Christ and that's why he 'postponed' the kingdom. Well that is about as bad a blasphemous statement one could make and all you have to do is read the twentyfourth chapter of Luke to understand that it is.

God not only knew that the Jews would reject Jesus, he had his prophets write about it in advance.

Some early church fathers, such as Justin Martyr, who was literally beheaded for professing to be a Christian, was actually an antichrist according to your line of thinking. I don't know how some of you can live with yourselves sometimes?

I didn't get premillenialism from Justin Martyr but it's been a while since I read his works. But what does this have to do with anything?

If Christ didn't actually establish the kingdom when the bible said he did, then the whole thing is false. God's prophecies don't come true and we're still waiting on "the gap" to close and for Christ to establish his kingdom. Utter heresy. Justin Martyr said nothing like this at all. He didn't say we were still waiting for Christ's kingdom to be established because "Israel" has to accept it before it will be established.

The prophecies state that only a remnant would be saved out of the earthly nation of Israel and Paul establishes that is exactly what happened in Romans. Premils reject Christ and they reject God's statements that his plans would occur in exactly the time period he said it would happen in. They reject that Jesus became king in an everlasting kingdom that wasn't of this earth. They reject Peter's instruction that with this kingdom was the Davidic convenant also fulfilled and that Jesus IS the heir of David who would never cease to occupy the throne of Israel as promised. - Caveat - Jesus is going to turn over the kingdom on the Last Day back to his father. So, while the earth remains, there will never be a time when a descendant of David does not occupy the throne.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We could say that. I am just not comfortable saying it's "the" last days of old testament prophecy which were speaking of a very specific last days.

But the last days anticipated by the OT prophets included the arrival of the Messiah and the widespread successful extension of the Gospel out to the Gentiles. The following comes to mind:

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

This has to speak of the intra-Advent period, in my opinion.

 

[Al Touthentop]

But the last days anticipated by the OT prophets included the arrival of the Messiah and the widespread successful extension of the Gospel out to the Gentiles. The following comes to mind:

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

This has to speak of the intra-Advent period, in my opinion.

So, the establishment happened in "the last days" and those were 2000 years ago. And we've entered into the "age to come."

How would we still be in the same last days? I am not going to argue that we are not in some form of "last days" but I would argue that we're not in the "last days" of prophecies that were fulfilled. If you want to call today part of the last days, I'm not going to argue unless you say that we're in the same last days when prophecy was fulfilled. Those last days came to pass. What was prophesied would come to pass has come to pass.

"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

And this happened. Many Jews and Gentiles were brought together and practiced peace with each other through Christ. If we read this as literal nations, as in entire countries from the top down, then I think we read far too much into the spirit of this prophecy. I think we are probably in agreement on that, I am not intending to start an argument.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, the establishment happened in "the last days" and those were 2000 years ago. And we've entered into the "age to come."

How would we still be in the same last days? I am not going to argue that we are not in some form of "last days" but I would argue that we're not in the "last days" of prophecies that were fulfilled. If you want to call today part of the last days, I'm not going to argue unless you say that we're in the same last days when prophecy was fulfilled. Those last days came to pass. What was prophesied would come to pass has come to pass.

"And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

And this happened. Many Jews and Gentiles were brought together and practiced peace with each other through Christ. If we read this as literal nations, as in entire countries from the top down, then I think we read far too much into the spirit of this prophecy. I think we are probably in agreement on that, I am not intending to start an argument.

The age to come and the new heavens and new earth do not arrive until Jesus comes and banishes sin, sinners, death, corruption and Satan. I believe the last days are a protracted period from the first advent to the second advent. That is the Messianic age when Christ reigns over His enemies from heavenly Zion. When He comes again He destroys His enemies. There are no more days because we are now into eternity.

 

[Douggg]

Why is it too far? Jesus himself tells us that his kingdom is not of this world. Premils reject this totally.

Calling other posters Antichrists is a violation of the forum rules.

Premillennialists do not reject anything what Jesus said. What we reject is your interpretation and application of what Jesus said.

 

[Douggg]

If we read this as literal nations, as in entire countries from the top down, then I think we read far too much into the spirit of this prophecy.

Why would anyone draw that conclusion - unless the passage conflicts with their amil beliefs.

 

[fwGod]

I read a comment once that misunderstood what Jesus said, thinking that Jesus would have no kingdom on the earth at all because ..

Jesus saying to Pilate, John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world.."

I believe that when Jesus said that He meant to differentiate Himself from all worldly rulers. And meant to say that He had no intention of usurping the rulership in operation at that time (he said it during his arrest and subsequent investigation by Pilate).

Because God's intention is that His kingdom operate on the earth. Matthew 6:10 "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

The kingdom will come, it will operate on the earth, but not as previous empires of the world. It will operate according to God's rules.

The kingdom to come is the Millennium which is set up after the Second Coming of Jesus, at the end of the 70th week, the seven year Tribulation.

This coincides with the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and the statue made of various metals, and the rock that impacted at the feet which broke the statue into pieces, from the feet upward to the head. Rome, Greece, Persia, Babylon. The pieces blew away like chaff in the wind.
Then that rock became a mountain that covered the whole earth.

 

[DavidPT]

Why is it too far? Jesus himself tells us that his kingdom is not of this world. Premils reject this totally.

What I have underlined is a flat out lie because you are applying that to all Premils, and not some Premils.

The problem with your kind of thinking is that you paint things with a broad brush as if what applies to one Premil applies to all Premils. For example. Some Premils are Pretribbers. Some Premils are Post tribbers. Some Premils believe Ezekiel's temple will be in the millennium with animal sacrifing continuing again. Some Premils don't believe any of that. So on and so on.

As to His kingdom not being of this world, is anyone even arguing against that? Have you not read the following parable in Luke 19? Have no Premils read this either?

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that His kingdom is not of this world if He has to go somewhere else to obtain it, heaven in this case, then after having obtained it, returning with it in it's literal physical form. Currently we experience it in a spiritual sense. There is no reason after He returns, regardless whether there is or isn't a millennium after His return, to still be experiencing His kingdom in the same manner we are now, that being a spiritual manner where it involves faith in things not visibly seen, as one example.

BTW, what I have underlined in the above paragraph, if you agree with that, and that I agree with that, but because I am Premil that makes me antichrist according to your way of thinking, guess what? That would make you equally antichrist as well.

 

[DavidPT]

The kingdom to come is the Millennium

What exactly do you mean by that though? There is only one kingdom and it has already come. It just hasn't come in it's literal physical form as of yet. There is no such thing as the kingdom equaling the millennium. There is only one kingdom in view here and that it's an everlasting kingdom.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Calling other posters Antichrists is a violation of the forum rules.

I noted that their belief system denies that he fulfilled his work. They reject Christ. By definition that is (according to John) the spirit of the antiChrist. Take it up with John.

Premillennialists do not reject anything what Jesus said. What we reject is your interpretation and application of what Jesus said.

The first and foremost thing they reject is his direct statement to Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world."

The second thing they reject is God's clear statement that Jesus would arrive in "70 weeks." Some of them claim that God didn't know Israel would reject Jesus. That puts God in the same realm as climatologists when it comes to prophecy.

 

[Al Touthentop]

What I have underlined is a flat out lie because you are applying that to all Premils, and not some Premils.

Depends. If you believe that Jesus is coming back to rule on the earth for a thousand years, you reject his claim that the kingdom is not earthly.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that His kingdom is not of this world if He has to go somewhere else to obtain it, heaven in this case, then after having obtained it, returning with it in it's literal physical form.

Since it isn't a physical thing, he can't return with it now can he?

Currently we experience it in a spiritual sense

. There is no reason after He returns, regardless whether there is or isn't a millennium after His return, to still be experiencing His kingdom in the same manner we are now, that being a spiritual manner where it involves faith in things not visibly seen, as one example.

It can only be experienced in the spiritual sense ever, unless there ends up being a kingdom that has laws written in law books in a physical kingdom somewhere with an administration and political apparatus.

BTW, what I have underlined in the above paragraph, if you agree with that, and that I agree with that, but because I am Premil that makes me antichrist according to your way of thinking, guess what? That would make you equally antichrist as well.

You mean, because premils might also think that the sky is blue, our agreement makes me a part of them? Nope.

My point was not to disparage people. I was talking about a belief system, not making personal insults. Believing that God doesn't actually fulfill his prophecies and also claiming that there will be an earthly kingdom established at some later date is anti Christ and anti God. His word is not accepted and this may be due to plain misunderstanding.

If the kingdom is spiritual now and is also everlasting, then it can never be partial or earthly at a later date. It's complete, whole just as God planned it, and forever.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The age to come and the new heavens and new earth do not arrive until Jesus comes and banishes sin, sinners, death, corruption and Satan. I believe the last days are a protracted period from the first advent to the second advent. That is the Messianic age when Christ reigns over His enemies from heavenly Zion. When He comes again He destroys His enemies. There are no more days because we are now into eternity.

Christ reigns now and we with him. This is the messianic age I think. He rules over sinners and sin because he has made sin and death - the enemies - ineffective against his kingdom's subjects. When he comes again he definitely destroys his enemies but it happens in a day. The last enemy is physical death which will be conquered on the last day when all the dead are resurrected. Paul calls it the "last enemy." Thus all those other enemies have already been conquered. Then he turns over the kingdom back to our father.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Christ reigns now and we with him. This is the messianic age I think. He rules over sinners and sin because he has made sin and death ineffective against the enemies of his kingdom's subjects. When he comes again he definitely destroys his enemies but it happens in a day. The last enemy is physical death which will be conquered on the last day when all the dead are resurrected. Paul calls it the "last enemy." Thus all those other enemies have already been conquered. Then he turns over the kingdom back to our father.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

I totally agree. I would love you to look at the subject of the last days further if you get a chance. We agree on what you wrote above!

 

[Al Touthentop]

The kingdom will come, it will operate on the earth, but not as previous empires of the world. It will operate according to God's rules.

The kingdom arrived and was established when Christ was resurrected.

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We're members of it right now if indeed we are in Christ. Peter said on the day of Pentecost that Jesus was on the throne of that kingdom. It's a done deal. It operates on earth now though it isn't of this world. It has no administrative offices or officers who lord over the subjects. Unlike every other nation and kingdom of the earth, members govern themselves by making themselves servants of the kingdom without any police powers making them do so.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I totally agree. I would love you to look at the subject of the last days further if you get a chance. We agree on what you wrote above!

I am glad, I don't want to just dispute for the sake of disputing. And you'll note I wrote "I think" up there. I'm willing to be wrong, that's just what my current understanding is.