Daniel's 70th Week

[Danoh]

This brother has it right...

From the Youtube Video "Gap Verses"

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-noBlFU4N0c

 

[miamited]

Hi danoh,

I do agree with pastor Jordan as far as the timeline of the 70 weeks. However, I'm not sure about his mention of the rider on the white horse revealed when the first seal is removed from the scroll.

Here's my take on that. The Scriptures explain that Jesus is in heaven when John begins his explanation of the seals. He is described as a lamb who appears to have been slain, so I don't think there is any disagreement among believers that this is Jesus. Also according to the Scriptures Jesus ascended to heaven just a few days after he was crucified. So, the vision that John saw of Jesus in heaven could be immediately after Jesus was crucified.

Then a great cry goes out to find one who is able to open the scroll and we are told that Jesus is there to do that. He is now able to open the scroll because he has given up his life after having lived sinless before God. So, Jesus was able to open the scroll just as soon as he ascended into heaven. Now, many believe that this removing of the seals to open the scroll is all a future event, but I have been impressed that that isn't necessarily what the facts of the Scriptures tell us.

It has been my understanding for quite some time now that the seals have already begun to be opened. The first seal was a rider on a white horse sent out to conquer with a crown on his head and a bow in his hand. I believe that Jesus is that rider. Immediately after Jesus ascended into heaven the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, was sent out through the first apostles. This testimony and gospel was sent out to conquer the hearts of men and through this gospel and testimony Jesus is still riding throughout all of the earth to conquer the hearts of men.

Next the second seal is opened and this seal is also opened very soon after the first. Sometime shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven able to remove the seals and open the scroll. This second seal is another angel but he rides on a fiery red horse. He rides out to give men the power to destroy each other. He is given a sword and he gives men the power to slay one another. That rider is also still riding throughout the earth doing that.

Then we have the third horseman. He rides on a black horse and gives men the power to use greed and avarice to destroy themselves, and that rider is still riding throughout the earth doing exactly that. Finally, we have the fourth rider who sits on a pale horse and he is given the task of destroying a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth by sword, famine, plagues and the wild beasts. He also still rides throughout the earth accomplishing his task.

So, I find it perfectly in line with the Scriptures that these 'four horseman of the apocalypse' have long since been loosed upon the earth already. The rider on the white horse conquering the hearts of men and the others sent to destroy men.

After that, the fifth seal is opened and the saints who have already given up their lives for God's testimony cry out asking when God's vengeance will fall. But, God tells them to wait a bit longer until the full measure of those who have given of their lives, as they had, comes in. This may mean that there is a gap, just like the gap that pastor Jordan is talking about, between the opening of the fifth seal and the opening of the sixth. I'm honestly not clear on whether the events portrayed by the opening of the sixth seal have begun.

They may have. Many believe that the stars falling out of the sky upon the earth is alluding to the demonic angels. If this is what it is referring to, then I can certainly see that has already happened. Peter writes that Satan is prowling around upon the earth. Jesus said that he saw Satan cast down to the earth. I'm not really clear on what God intends for us to understand about the kings and generals and inhabitants of the earth hiding among the rocks and crevices. It may will allude to these merely living their lives hiding from the truth of God.

Then there seems to obviously be a gap in time between the opening of the sixth seal to the opening of the seventh. John recounts for us several things that are going on for a time in heaven and even at the opening of the seventh seal there is first a great silence in heaven for about a half hour. I don't expect that this intends for us to understand that it is really half and hour, but rather alludes to a short time of waiting. We also find that between the sixth seal and the seventh seal that now there is a multitude of saints singing praises to the Lord. So, it does seem that this time of the saints singing praises to the Lord is not the same time as mentioned before of the saints who had given up their lives for the testimony of God crying for God's vengeance and told to wait.

In all of this, all I can encourage is that each one seek God's face asking for the wisdom that comes through His Holy Spirit, as they study these prophetic messages. Remembering that when Israel was in captivity, it seems that only Daniel understood correctly that the the 70 years of their captivity was drawing to a close. Because of Daniel's faithfulness and perseverance in seeking the wisdom of God through both prayer and study of the Scriptures, did God reveal to him what the future held for Israel in that day.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[KrAZeD]

However, I'm not sure about his mention of the rider on the white horse revealed when the first seal is removed from the scroll.

It has been my understanding for quite some time now that the seals have already begun to be opened. The first seal was a rider on a white horse sent out to conquer with a crown on his head and a bow in his hand. I believe that Jesus is that rider. Immediately after Jesus ascended into heaven the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, was sent out through the first apostles. This testimony and gospel was sent out to conquer the hearts of men and through this gospel and testimony Jesus is still riding throughout all of the earth to conquer the hearts of men.

The details are useful in discernment. Why does Jesus need a bow here yet the other passage of him a sword? Why does Jesus have only 1 crown but many in the other? Reason, it's not Jesus in rev 6:2. An if it were, why does he need the aid of the other 3 riders? Would they all not have "white" horses, and crowns since they came down from heaven? No point on changing horses, since their all righteous anyways.

Also, the rider is to conquer, can you show me one time where God made someone "accept" or "choose" him against their will? To envision Jesus having to conquer our hearts seems counter intuitive. It would appear then we as man have zero choice in accepting the gift of salvation, Jesus will conquer our hearts wether we allow him to or not (i do not agree with this, but if he's conquering our hearts as you believe then this is exactly what that means).

Food for thought.

 

[Danoh]

I completely agree with Jordan as to his take on it all.

One aspect of that take is that the Mystery first revealed to and through Paul concerning a new creature God also purposed in Himself, along with Israel, but first referred to by Paul as the Church which is His Body, in Col. 1, interrupted Israel's heading towards its 5th and final course of judgement under the Law, per Leviticus, which is what both Daniel and Revelation are addressing, thus Daniel's "Law" comments in Daniel 9, for example.

If so, then all Revelation is yet future, Israel's prophesied time line on hold since just before Paul was saved.

Christ is the Lamb, but they also saw Him in His 2nd Advent Majesty, or glory, just as Paul saw Him in His glory on the road to Damascus - in fact, so much more so, that he was blinded by it.

 

[Danoh]

As for how the Holy Spirit reveals what He does this side of the completed cannon of Scripture, that is in itelf a more than worthwhile study

 

[Interplanner]

Da noh,
can you list the 5 episodes of judgement?

how do you put something on hold that was written many decades later?

the blessing to the nations, and inclusion of them as sons of Abrhaam was understood from the beginning; the only thing that was a mystery was "how." It was not through Law. It was by faith. Eph 3:5 is as clear as possible on that. The Gospel was known for generations earlier, Rom 1:2, but Judaism thought the nations came in "by law." Not.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh, can you repost your link. It seems broken. It just goes to an empty youtube searchline with my history of searches.

 

[Interplanner]

I did find it. And it was pretty much as expected. It completely bypasses the NT times. Bypassing them needs to be justified. I don't think there is a good reason to do that.

I think the prophets would laugh at us for using the expression 'prophetic program' because it takes all the anguish out of the message. It becomes as safe as going to a movie and enjoying popcorn. These prophecies were meant to wake up a spiritually wreckless Israel about its future. And even for us it reminds us who we are to honor and why. Messiah who was cut off but not for himself.

I won't bother with details that are just plain wrong. But for starters, let's try not to bust up a 490 year segment. Just leave it alone, until for some reason you just can't make sense of it as a straight 490 year shot. I can.

 

[miamited]

The details are useful in discernment. Why does Jesus need a bow here yet the other passage of him a sword? Why does Jesus have only 1 crown but many in the other? Reason, it's not Jesus in rev 6:2. An if it were, why does he need the aid of the other 3 riders? Would they all not have "white" horses, and crowns since they came down from heaven? No point on changing horses, since their all righteous anyways.

Also, the rider is to conquer, can you show me one time where God made someone "accept" or "choose" him against their will? To envision Jesus having to conquer our hearts seems counter intuitive. It would appear then we as man have zero choice in accepting the gift of salvation, Jesus will conquer our hearts wether we allow him to or not (i do not agree with this, but if he's conquering our hearts as you believe then this is exactly what that means).

Food for thought.

Hi krazed,

In God's hand, the sword is always a mark of judgement. As to the singular crown, it is worth considering what a crown means in God's understanding. A crown, singular, is a sign of authority. As to the idea that these other riders are of some 'aid' to Jesus, I never said that was any part of my understanding. They are just four riders that God, from the seals of His scroll in heaven, have loosed upon the world. They are not necessarily any 'aid' of one another. They each are given their own command to pursue their given purpose upon the earth.

Some of the food I had leftover.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[John Diomitron]

Hi krazed,

In God's hand, the sword is always a mark of judgement. As to the singular crown, it is worth considering what a crown means in God's understanding. A crown, singular, is a sign of authority. As to the idea that these other riders are of some 'aid' to Jesus, I never said that was any part of my understanding. They are just four riders that God, from the seals of His scroll in heaven, have loosed upon the world. They are not necessarily any 'aid' of one another. They each are given their own command to pursue their given purpose upon the earth.

Some of the food I had leftover.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

You are right when you say that a crown is a sign of authority...like God's signet ring. Now the rider of Revelation 6:2 rides on a white horse which symbolizes righteousness, and he is given great authority to conquer.

Now the Word in the Old Testament speaks of a certain person who was to be chosen "in that day" and to be given great authority to conquer the kingdoms of this world which will be replaced by the Kingdom of God and the rightful King.

Let me show you.

Haggai 2:19-23 (NKJV) - "19 Is the seed still in the barn? As yet the vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have not yielded fruit. But from this day I will bless you.’” 20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:
‘I will shake heaven and earth.
22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.
23 ‘In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the LORD, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Now we have a dilemma. Zerubbabel did not fulfill this prophecy, and he is dead. The Word does not return void so there has to be an explanation. Notice the LORD said he was to be chosen "in that day".

Names have meaning. The name Zerubbabel means "seed of Babylon" referring to a child conceived and born in Babylon. Now since Zerubbabel is dead and the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled "in that day", so a child born in END-TIME Babylon will be the "chosen man" to fulfill the prophecy.

This can be corroborated further in Jeremiah 50 which speaks of Babylon which is to be destroyed in the future. Shall the Lord save a remnant? Yes! So He appoints a prophet, a "chosen man", to lead the remnant out of Babylon just like Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Jeremiah 50:44-46 (NKJV) - "44 “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will make them suddenly run away from her.
And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her?
For who is like Me?
Who will arraign Me?
And who is that shepherd
Who will withstand Me?”
45 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Babylon,
And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans:
Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out;
Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them.
46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon
The earth trembles,
And the cry is heard among the nations."

Now this "chosen man" is one of the two witness (like Moses and Aaron) who are given great authority. They will need it to accomplish what they have been called to do. They must prophesy to the world of the coming Kingdom of God and its King who returns on clouds of heaven with great power and glory. The King our Lord sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven waiting for restoration and for His enemies to be made into His footstool. If the kings of the earth refuse to submit their kingdoms to the coming King and Kingdom, then they will be considered the enemies of Christ. Then the two witnesses will use that authority to call down plagues on those kings and turn them into His footstool.

Now you already know the name of the one who will fulfill the Zerubbabel prophecy and help bring about the restoration. His name has been mentioned before.

Isaiah 49 speaks of the prophet who comes to restore.

Isaiah 49:1 (NKJV) - "“Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.

Isaiah 49:5-7 (NKJV) - "5 “And now the LORD says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
7 Thus says the LORD,
The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,
To Him whom man despises,
To Him whom the nation abhors,
To the Servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise,
Princes also shall worship,
Because of the LORD who is faithful,
The Holy One of Israel;
And He has chosen You.”

Notice the phrase "It is too small a thing...".

Zechariah 4:8-10 (NKJV) - "8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
9 “The hands of Zerubbabel
Have laid the foundation of this temple;
His hands shall also finish it.
Then you will know
That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
10 For who has despised the day of small things?
For these seven rejoice to see
The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.
They are the eyes of the LORD,
Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

But again Zerubbabel is dead. So another must come but his name will not be Zerubbabel. His name will be ______.

Let us look at these questions to figure out the name that has been mentioned before.

1) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” holds the measuring line for the temple in Zechariah 4:9-10, however it is a man named “John” who holds the measuring line for the temple in Revelation 11:1-2?

2) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” is given authority before kings in Haggai 2:20-23, however it is a man named “John” who is given authority before kings in Revelation 10:11 ?

3) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” is the person spoken to/of in Zechariah 4 where the two olive trees are mentioned, however it is a man named “John” who is spoken to/of in Revelation 11 where the two olive trees (two witnesses) are mentioned?

Same prophecy but different names! Why? More questions first.

4) Why did the angel Gabriel give the name of "Jesus" to Mary's child when Isaiah gave His name as "Immanuel", and why did Gabriel give the name "John" to Elizabeth's child when no one in the family had that name? (NOTE: We know that our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Immanuel (also spelled Emmanuel) prophecy though He wasn't named "Immanuel". The name of His flesh was Jesus (Joshua, Yeshua, or Yehoshua in other languages) but His spiritual name was Immanuel which describes who He was/is.)

5) In the prophecy of "Joshua and Zerubbabel" in Haggai and Zechariah, why is “Joshua” the high priest crowned BEFORE “Zerubbabel” who is to become God’s signet “IN THAT DAY”?

6) In John 21:20-25, why did the Lord say of “John”, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”? Unless a person believes our Lord said things just to be saying something, then there must be a deeper meaning in what He said and wants us to know something.

7) Why was “John” told to prophesy AGAIN in Revelation 10:11?

My questions above mentioned two different men with the same name of “John” (the Baptist and the Disciple). Why did the Lord Jesus keep pointing to the name “John”?

Matthew 11:13-15 (NKJV) - "13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

This was true then and it must be true at the end.

until - up to (a particular time); used to indicate the time when something will happen, become true, etc.

Since John and Jesus were rejected, restoration is needed. Heaven must receive our Lord Jesus Christ until restoration is completed, then a prophet must come to "restore all things."

Hebrews 10:10-13 (NKJV) - "10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool."

A prophet like Moses must come for the Lord Jesus waits for restoration.

Acts 3:19-22 (NKJV) - "19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you."

Notice that verse 21 states "…whom heaven MUST receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things…” Now we must remember our Lord Jesus spoke of a future prophet coming who "will restore all things." This is immediately corroborated in verse 22 which speaks of that prophet. Many say that the Lord Jesus is that prophet, but follow the transition of the verses and you will see it is that prophet who comes to "restore all things". Remember, the Lord is waiting for restoration.

Since there are two more prophets in Revelation, that means one of them must be named __________.

Revelation 10:11 (NKJV) - "And he said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.” "

As I said before, names have meaning. Just like the name of Immanuel (Emmanuel), so does the name of Zerubbabel. If you accept that the prophecy of "Joshua and Zerubbabel" was a symbolic prophecy in which Joshua (Jesus in Greek) and Zerubbabel where SYMBOLIC of two men who would come LATER in the future to fulfill the prophecies spoken of them, then it starts to make sense that the meaning of the name will help us identify the child (chosen man).

The one who fulfills the prophecy concerning "Zerubbabel" is a child born in END-TIME Babylon. His name will not be Zerubbabel. The name of the child is John!

John and his brother, just like Moses and Aaron, will be the Lord's two witnesses. And many of the children of Israel will "John" lead back to the Lord their God and the land promised to their fathers - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - in a Second Exodus and many wonders will be seen.

Here we go…AGAIN! A repeat of history. After all, there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NKJV) -
"9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which it may be said,
“See, this is new”?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after."

INTO EGYPT, ISRAEL WENT.
OUT OF EGYPT, ISRAEL WAS DELIVERED.
FOR THIS, A CHILD WAS BORN.
A CHILD BORN IN EGYPT.
HIS NAME WAS MOSES.

INTO BABYLON, ZION WENT.
OUT OF BABYLON, ZION SHALL BE DELIVERED.
FOR THIS, A CHILD IS BORN.
A CHILD BORN IN BABYLON.
HIS NAME IS JOHN.

 

[John Diomitron]

Hi krazed,

In God's hand, the sword is always a mark of judgement. As to the singular crown, it is worth considering what a crown means in God's understanding. A crown, singular, is a sign of authority. As to the idea that these other riders are of some 'aid' to Jesus, I never said that was any part of my understanding. They are just four riders that God, from the seals of His scroll in heaven, have loosed upon the world. They are not necessarily any 'aid' of one another. They each are given their own command to pursue their given purpose upon the earth.

Some of the food I had leftover.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

You are right when you say that a crown is a sign of authority...like God's signet ring. Now the rider of Revelation 6:2 rides on a white horse which symbolizes righteousness, and he is given great authority to conquer.

Now the Word in the Old Testament speaks of a certain person who was to be chosen "in that day" and to be given great authority to conquer the kingdoms of this world which will be replaced by the Kingdom of God and the rightful King.

Let me show you.

Haggai 2:19-23 (NKJV) - "19 Is the seed still in the barn? As yet the vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have not yielded fruit. But from this day I will bless you.’” 20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:
‘I will shake heaven and earth.
22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.
23 ‘In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the LORD, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Now we have a dilemma. Zerubbabel did not fulfill this prophecy, and he is dead. The Word does not return void so there has to be an explanation. Notice the LORD said he was to be chosen "in that day".

Names have meaning. The name Zerubbabel means "seed of Babylon" referring to a child conceived and born in Babylon. Now since Zerubbabel is dead and the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled "in that day", so a child born in END-TIME Babylon will be the "chosen man" to fulfill the prophecy.

This can be corroborated further in Jeremiah 50 which speaks of Babylon which is to be destroyed in the future. Shall the Lord save a remnant? Yes! So He appoints a prophet, a "chosen man", to lead the remnant out of Babylon just like Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Jeremiah 50:44-46 (NKJV) - "44 “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will make them suddenly run away from her.
And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her?
For who is like Me?
Who will arraign Me?
And who is that shepherd
Who will withstand Me?”
45 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Babylon,
And His purposes that He has proposed against the land of the Chaldeans:
Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out;
Surely He will make their dwelling place desolate with them.
46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon
The earth trembles,
And the cry is heard among the nations."

Now this "chosen man" is one of the two witness (like Moses and Aaron) who are given great authority. They will need it to accomplish what they have been called to do. They must prophesy to the world of the coming Kingdom of God and its King who returns on clouds of heaven with great power and glory. The King our Lord sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven waiting for restoration and for His enemies to be made into His footstool. If the kings of the earth refuse to submit their kingdoms to the coming King and Kingdom, then they will be considered the enemies of Christ. Then the two witnesses will use that authority to call down plagues on those kings and turn them into His footstool.

Now you already know the name of the one who will fulfill the Zerubbabel prophecy and help bring about the restoration. His name has been mentioned before.

Isaiah 49 speaks of the prophet who comes to restore.

Isaiah 49:1 (NKJV) - "“Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.

Isaiah 49:5-7 (NKJV) - "5 “And now the LORD says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
7 Thus says the LORD,
The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One,
To Him whom man despises,
To Him whom the nation abhors,
To the Servant of rulers:
“Kings shall see and arise,
Princes also shall worship,
Because of the LORD who is faithful,
The Holy One of Israel;
And He has chosen You.”

Notice the phrase "It is too small a thing...".

Zechariah 4:8-10 (NKJV) - "8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
9 “The hands of Zerubbabel
Have laid the foundation of this temple;
His hands shall also finish it.
Then you will know
That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
10 For who has despised the day of small things?
For these seven rejoice to see
The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.
They are the eyes of the LORD,
Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

But again Zerubbabel is dead. So another must come but his name will not be Zerubbabel. His name will be ______.

Let us look at these questions to figure out the name that has been mentioned before.

1) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” holds the measuring line for the temple in Zechariah 4:9-10, however it is a man named “John” who holds the measuring line for the temple in Revelation 11:1-2?

2) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” is given authority before kings in Haggai 2:20-23, however it is a man named “John” who is given authority before kings in Revelation 10:11 ?

3) Why is it that a man named “Zerubbabel” is the person spoken to/of in Zechariah 4 where the two olive trees are mentioned, however it is a man named “John” who is spoken to/of in Revelation 11 where the two olive trees (two witnesses) are mentioned?

Same prophecy but different names! Why? More questions first.

4) Why did the angel Gabriel give the name of "Jesus" to Mary's child when Isaiah gave His name as "Immanuel", and why did Gabriel give the name "John" to Elizabeth's child when no one in the family had that name? (NOTE: We know that our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Immanuel (also spelled Emmanuel) prophecy though He wasn't named "Immanuel". The name of His flesh was Jesus (Joshua, Yeshua, or Yehoshua in other languages) but His spiritual name was Immanuel which describes who He was/is.)

5) In the prophecy of "Joshua and Zerubbabel" in Haggai and Zechariah, why is “Joshua” the high priest crowned BEFORE “Zerubbabel” who is to become God’s signet “IN THAT DAY”?

6) In John 21:20-25, why did the Lord say of “John”, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”? Unless a person believes our Lord said things just to be saying something, then there must be a deeper meaning in what He said and wants us to know something.

7) Why was “John” told to prophesy AGAIN in Revelation 10:11?

My questions above mentioned two different men with the same name of “John” (the Baptist and the Disciple). Why did the Lord Jesus keep pointing to the name “John”?

Matthew 11:13-15 (NKJV) - "13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

This was true then and it must be true at the end.

until - up to (a particular time); used to indicate the time when something will happen, become true, etc.

Since John and Jesus were rejected, restoration is needed. Heaven must receive our Lord Jesus Christ until restoration is completed, then a prophet must come to "restore all things."

Hebrews 10:10-13 (NKJV) - "10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool."

A prophet like Moses must come for the Lord Jesus waits for restoration.

Acts 3:19-22 (NKJV) - "19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you."

Notice that verse 21 states "…whom heaven MUST receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things…” Now we must remember our Lord Jesus spoke of a future prophet coming who "will restore all things." This is immediately corroborated in verse 22 which speaks of that prophet. Many say that the Lord Jesus is that prophet, but follow the transition of the verses and you will see it is that prophet who comes to "restore all things". Remember, the Lord is waiting for restoration.

Since there are two more prophets in Revelation, that means one of them must be named __________.

Revelation 10:11 (NKJV) - "And he said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.” "

As I said before, names have meaning. Just like the name of Immanuel (Emmanuel), so does the name of Zerubbabel. If you accept that the prophecy of "Joshua and Zerubbabel" was a symbolic prophecy in which Joshua (Jesus in Greek) and Zerubbabel where SYMBOLIC of two men who would come LATER in the future to fulfill the prophecies spoken of them, then it starts to make sense that the meaning of the name will help us identify the child (chosen man).

The one who fulfills the prophecy concerning "Zerubbabel" is a child born in END-TIME Babylon. His name will not be Zerubbabel. The name of the child is John!

John and his brother, just like Moses and Aaron, will be the Lord's two witnesses. And many of the children of Israel will "John" lead back to the Lord their God and the land promised to their fathers - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - in a Second Exodus and many wonders will be seen.



INTO EGYPT, ISRAEL WENT.
OUT OF EGYPT, ISRAEL WAS DELIVERED.
FOR THIS, A CHILD WAS BORN.
A CHILD BORN IN EGYPT.
HIS NAME WAS MOSES.

INTO BABYLON, ZION WENT.
OUT OF BABYLON, ZION SHALL BE DELIVERED.
FOR THIS, A CHILD IS BORN.
A CHILD BORN IN BABYLON.
HIS NAME IS JOHN.

Malachi 4 (NKJV) - "“For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

Matthew 17:10-13 (NKJV) - "10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist."

Matthew 11:13-15 (NKJV) - "13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Not all Israel received it. So, let's do it all over! Here we go…AGAIN! A repeat of history. After all, there is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NKJV) -
"9 That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which it may be said,
“See, this is new”?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after."

 

[BABerean2]

When I found some problems with what I was being taught in Sunday-School because it did not match up with what was plainly written in my Bible, I looked for older interpretations of scripture.

One of the things I found was web-based Bible resources like Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software and more recently eSword which can be downloaded for free.

I was amazed at the interpretations given by Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, John Gill, and Matthew Henry. Many times they also did not agree with what my church body was teaching. That led me to try and find out when and who made the change. Eventually, I found that John Darby had brought the newer interpretation to America.

One of the pillars of Darby's viewpoint was Daniel 9:27. His interpretation has spread throughout almost all evangelical denominations. For many of us on this forum, it is what we have heard our whole lives. Also, many of us have put untold hours into an interpretation of eschatology that also used this verse as the pillar of our understanding.

The question is, "Could you abandon your long held point of view, if it can be demonstrated that it is not correct based solely on the text, or would you not even consider the possibility that you could be wrong?"

In other words you have written and argued for your viewpoint for so long that you will go to your grave with your current view, even if it is wrong.

A pastor told me once, that things might change after one of the pastors died. At the time I thought he was talking about one of the other pastors. Later, I came to understand that he was talking about himself. His statement is the thing that cults are made of.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Darby's interpretation of Daniel 9:27 has two glaring problems based solely on the text.

1. The angel Gabriel said the prophecy would last 490 years.

Please do not repeat the Darby reason for the gap, the Church Age, the 70th week of God dealing with the Jews again, etc.. I have heard it all before.

We should all be able to at least admit that the angel did not mention a gap.

2. Verse 24 gives a summary of the entire prophecy and it does not contain a hint of an antichrist.


This means there are at least two interpretations of Daniel 9:27. One fulfilled by Christ and the other fulfilled by the antichrist.

The question should be,..

"Which one is the most literal based on the text alone, not what has been added by men?"

Christ confirmed a covenant(testament) with many. There is nothing in the text that states clearly that a covenant is broken.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


At his death the veil in the temple was torn symbolizing the end of animal sacrifice. If that is not what it symbolized, please explain the meaning of the torn veil.

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.


Christ spoke of the desolation that would occur to the temple and to the city of Jerusalem several times.

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Yesterday I came across a webpage that does an excellent job of discussing the same issue. Take just a few minutes and take a look at it before you come back and tell me why the antichrist interpretation is correct. I am not endorsing everything this man teaches, however I did agree with this article.

Who Confirmed the Covenant

Who Confirmed The Covenant? | Christian Media Research

.

 

[Danoh]

Did I read that article right, BAB2 - the guy went into how many unforeseen gaps in time within.Daniel's prophecy at the same time he denied the possibility of the gap in time he was attempting to discredit.

And what was that about Gal. 3:17 being a reference on the Apostle Paul's part to Daniel's prophecy?

Okay, I'm sold, sign me up, I'm tired of seeing distinctions within "that which is noted in the Scripture of truth," sign me up, let someone that off base do my thinking for me to...

Come on, BB2, argue the case yourself as well, don't just "well here's what I've spoonfed that teaches me that you have been spoonfed something else" - get in here, and fight the good fight of faith!

 

[JLB777]

One of the reasons many do not understand Daniel's 70 weeks is the fact that Messiah was not crucified "cut off", during the 70 weeks time frame.

JLB

 

[Danoh]

Its interesting that no one ever brings up Jesus' perspective in connection with Daniel's timeline in Matt . 18:22's "until seventy times seven" [until the four hundred ninety years are up].

Not to mention, other passages in Scripture most overlook. Its the price of always turning to "the experts" for one's view...

 

[Danoh]

BB2, all you're doing is parroting the notions of others. You then project this practice you are guilty of as the practice you are perceiving in others.

The issue is not whether some child, or Darby, or whomever first brought up what ever about Raptures and or whatever, but about is it in Scripture.

Fact is that for all anybody knows, that young girl might have been guilty of what you clearly are - for all we know, she might have been parroting something she read or heard from someone else - like McIntosh, who taught a Pre-Trib Rapture way, way, way, before that girl's parents were even born!

Not only that, but so what if she "came up with it"?

As the Lord noted about some adults who had acknowledged Him just before He took His glory with Him, ONCE MORE pronouncing the Temple "desolate."

"Out of the mouth of babes" He had admirably spoken of these "rookies" Israel's "scholars" had so looked down upon.

Who knows what that young girl's source had been - not "the Devil's" that ignorance asserts, that's for sure. Not when you study IN SCRIPTURE how he works today THIS SIDE of the completed Canon of Scripture.

Fact is, you do NOT know what you are talking about. The Covenant of Daniel 9 is NOT the Covenant of Matt. 26:23.

Fact is, that in Matt. - John, Israel rejected what Daniel was referring to as to "the Covenant" that "the prince that will come shall confirm... for a week."

Fact is Christ told them they would believe another's confirmation of the actual Covenant He had come to confirm.

Fact is, that in Luke 13, He also ADDED a one year gap IN BETWEEN Daniel's 69th and 70th Week. And don't jump on that with the lame "parable" notion, for there are other ones whereby He prophesied certain future events, as in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

Man, o man, have you opened a can of worms with the wrong Bible Believer as to the rightness of his Dispensational forefathers

 

[BABerean2]

BB2, all you're doing is parroting the notions of others. You then project this practice you are guilty of as the practice you are perceiving in others.

The issue is not whether some child, or Darby, or whomever first brought up what ever about Raptures and or whatever, but about is it in Scripture.

Fact is that for all anybody knows, that young girl might have been guilty of what you clearly are - for all we know, she might have been parroting something she read or heard from someone else - like McIntosh, who taught a Pre-Trib Rapture way, way, way, before that girl's parents were even born!

Not only that, but so what if she "came up with it"?

As the Lord noted about some adults who had acknowledged Him just before He took His glory with Him, ONCE MORE pronouncing the Temple "desolate."

"Out of the mouth of babes" He had admirably spoken of these "rookies" Israel's "scholars" had so looked down upon.

Who knows what that young girl's source had been - not "the Devil's" that ignorance asserts, that's for sure. Not when you study IN SCRIPTURE how he works today THIS SIDE of the completed Canon of Scripture.

Fact is, you do NOT know what you are talking about. The Covenant of Daniel 9 is NOT the Covenant of Matt. 26:23.

Fact is, that in Matt. - John, Israel rejected what Daniel was referring to as to "the Covenant" that "the prince that will come shall confirm... for a week."

Fact is Christ told them they would believe another's confirmation of the actual Covenant He had come to confirm.

Fact is, that in Luke 13, He also ADDED a one year gap IN BETWEEN Daniel's 69th and 70th Week. And don't jump on that with the lame "parable" notion, for there are other ones whereby He prophesied certain future events, as in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares.

Man, o man, have you opened a can of worms with the wrong Bible Believer as to the rightness of his Dispensational forefathers

Well, some do not want to admit their origins and are also upset when faced with the reality of their doctrine's wrongly dividing the Word.

Talking about parrots, many of your view quote Tweedy, Larkin, Schaefer, Scofield and others without even knowing who first came up with the argument.

Sometimes they make claims about names like McIntosh without offering any sources to validate the claim. Bold statements alone will not get you far in this forum.

It was Matt 26:28 instead of 26:23.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The text says he spoke in parables, but you want to deny what the text says?

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

We have gone from the Sola Scriptura of the Reformation to Solo Scriptura, where each person gets to decide what the verse means. It is an insult to God's Word.

I will say one thing about dispensationalism, it has been effective at spreading like a virus into the evangelical Church.......................................................................................

A Short History of Dispensationalism in the U.S. and U.K. 1800 to 2014


Based on the older written sermons and commentaries available today, during the year 1800 protestant church bodies in the both the U.S. and the U.K. taught that the 1st Thess. Chapter 4 gathering of believers would occur at the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming. They interpreted the verses of 2nd Thess. 2:1-5 to mean the “man of sin”(antichrist) would be revealed before the gathering (rapture) of the Church by Christ. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 was believed to have ended after 490 years, which was within a few years of the crucifixion. The prophecy was believed to have included two future characters, the Messiah and the one who would come to destroy the sanctuary. The Roman army destroyed the sanctuary in 70A.D. under the leadership of General Titus. Some of the early commentators clearly indicated their belief that the prophecy had already been fulfilled within the 490 year period indicated by the angel Gabriel.

They were also of the belief that the land promise to the descendants of Abraham had been fulfilled based on the verses of Joshua 21:43-45. All other promises to the descendants of Abraham were considered fulfilled through the one seed of Galatians 3:16, which is Christ. The verse goes on to indicate it did not apply to more than one seed. In Romans Chapters 9, 10, and 11 the Apostle Paul taught that not all of Israel is Israel. This was understood to mean not all of the descendants of Jacob were to be part of faithful Israel. Romans 11 uses the illustration of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree to show gentile believers grafted in along with Jewish Christians as faithful Israel. In chapter 11 unbelieving Jews were described as the branches broken off. They could only be grafted back in through faith in Christ. It was also understood that the only way of salvation was faith in Christ which occurred before his return. Some used the parable of the bridegroom and virgins of Matthew Chapter 25 as evidence that the decision must be made before the bridegroom(Christ) arrives. A free online computer program titled “Esword” will allow verification of the older commentaries like those of Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, and John Gill.

During 1812 a book titled, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820’s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunza’s concepts within the book. He then had Lacunza’s book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irving’s Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.

Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunza’s book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunza’s book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a “vision” of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her “vision” is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, “The Morning Watch”. Verification is available at… http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunza’s book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the “Father” of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irving’s Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunza‘s book in 1827.

During the late 1820’s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irving’s teaching and later became it’s greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.

Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.
At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church. This also doubled the time of the tribulation period from 3 ½ years to 7 years, based on a comparison to the older commentaries. It is not clear if this change came from Lacunza’s book, Irving or Darby. However, it is an essential part of Dispensational Theology.

Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as “Imminence”.

One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of “National Salvation” for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved…” This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church. Earlier commentators had believed these verses referred to Jews being grafted back into faithful Israel through faith as indicated in Romans 11:23.

A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darby’s Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or “dispensations” commonly referred to as “economies” by Dispensationalists.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHaye’s “The Left Behind” series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.

At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.

Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irving’s translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was first taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a “vision“ of a pretrib rapture.

Please check this information yourself to verify it. The Body of Christ should always be willing to examine the source of any doctrine being taught within their church.
Does the doctrine come from God’s Word or does it come from men?

 

[Danoh]

I agree - two many within Dispensationalism are just as much parrots as Replacementists. So, no arguement from me there.

As for Macintosh, I've read him, so I do know he was pre-trib. Though, if I recall, he was not premillenial.

 

[Danoh]

Whoops, I meant Jonethan Edwards, not Charles Macintosh

 

[Douggg]

Well, some do not want to admit their origins and are also upset when faced with the reality of their doctrine's wrongly dividing the Word.

Talking about parrots, many of your view quote Tweedy, Larkin, Schaefer, Scofield and others without even knowing who first came up with the argument.

Sometimes they make claims about names like McIntosh without offering any sources to validate the claim. Bold statements alone will not get you far in this forum.

It was Matt 26:28 instead of 26:23.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The text says he spoke in parables, but you want to deny what the text says?

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

We have gone from the Sola Scriptura of the Reformation to Solo Scriptura, where each person gets to decide what the verse means. It is an insult to God's Word.

I will say one thing about dispensationalism, it has been effective at spreading like a virus into the evangelical Church.......................................................................................

A Short History of Dispensationalism in the U.S. and U.K. 1800 to 2014


Based on the older written sermons and commentaries available today, during the year 1800 protestant church bodies in the both the U.S. and the U.K. taught that the 1st Thess. Chapter 4 gathering of believers would occur at the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming. They interpreted the verses of 2nd Thess. 2:1-5 to mean the “man of sin”(antichrist) would be revealed before the gathering (rapture) of the Church by Christ. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 was believed to have ended after 490 years, which was within a few years of the crucifixion. The prophecy was believed to have included two future characters, the Messiah and the one who would come to destroy the sanctuary. The Roman army destroyed the sanctuary in 70A.D. under the leadership of General Titus. Some of the early commentators clearly indicated their belief that the prophecy had already been fulfilled within the 490 year period indicated by the angel Gabriel.

They were also of the belief that the land promise to the descendants of Abraham had been fulfilled based on the verses of Joshua 21:43-45. All other promises to the descendants of Abraham were considered fulfilled through the one seed of Galatians 3:16, which is Christ. The verse goes on to indicate it did not apply to more than one seed. In Romans Chapters 9, 10, and 11 the Apostle Paul taught that not all of Israel is Israel. This was understood to mean not all of the descendants of Jacob were to be part of faithful Israel. Romans 11 uses the illustration of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree to show gentile believers grafted in along with Jewish Christians as faithful Israel. In chapter 11 unbelieving Jews were described as the branches broken off. They could only be grafted back in through faith in Christ. It was also understood that the only way of salvation was faith in Christ which occurred before his return. Some used the parable of the bridegroom and virgins of Matthew Chapter 25 as evidence that the decision must be made before the bridegroom(Christ) arrives. A free online computer program titled “Esword” will allow verification of the older commentaries like those of Albert Barnes, Adam Clarke, and John Gill.

During 1812 a book titled, “The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820’s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunza’s concepts within the book. He then had Lacunza’s book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irving’s Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.

Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunza’s book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunza’s book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunza’s book “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“ is available at…
PDF Files

According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a “vision” of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her “vision” is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, “The Morning Watch”. Verification is available at… http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunza’s book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the “Father” of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irving’s Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunza‘s book in 1827.

During the late 1820’s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irving’s teaching and later became it’s greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.

Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.
At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church. This also doubled the time of the tribulation period from 3 ½ years to 7 years, based on a comparison to the older commentaries. It is not clear if this change came from Lacunza’s book, Irving or Darby. However, it is an essential part of Dispensational Theology.

Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as “Imminence”.

One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of “National Salvation” for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved…” This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church. Earlier commentators had believed these verses referred to Jews being grafted back into faithful Israel through faith as indicated in Romans 11:23.

A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darby’s Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or “dispensations” commonly referred to as “economies” by Dispensationalists.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.



John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHaye’s “The Left Behind” series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.

At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.

Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irving’s translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was first taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a “vision“ of a pretrib rapture.

Please check this information yourself to verify it. The Body of Christ should always be willing to examine the source of any doctrine being taught within their church.
Does the doctrine come from God’s Word or does it come from men?

What I want know from you is a quote from any of the above references, or from any other historical bible commentator reference you can think of - that addresses the for 7 years requirement law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as being the "_________" confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

If you can't, then why should your arguments be given any credibility?