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Daniel's 70th Week

Interplanner

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Doug, reread your "What I want to know..." sentence; there's a word missing toward the end, and it's critical to the meaning.

At least I think it is. I don't really know why it would affect the count which ends up in the 40s of the 1st cent. AD, which is about when Paul said the wrath of God had come fully on Israel.
 
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Douggg

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Doug, reread your "What I want to know..." sentence; there's a word missing toward the end, and it's critical to the meaning.

At least I think it is. I don't really know why it would affect the count which ends up in the 40s of the 1st cent. AD, which is about when Paul said the wrath of God had come fully on Israel.
Okay, I fixed it. Thanks for letting me know.
 
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Interplanner

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Doug rewrote:
What I want know from you is a quote from any of the above references, or from any other historical bible commentator reference you can think of - that addresses the for 7 years requirement law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as being the "_________" confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

Sorry, Doug, but if this is the rewrite...I'm more confused. Did you mean that "for 7 years requirement" was to be in quotes?

2, The ______ would have to be a subject (person) doing the confirming; but the question is calling for a requirement to be that subject!?!?

Needs work.
 
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miamited

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The details are useful in discernment. Why does Jesus need a bow here yet the other passage of him a sword? Why does Jesus have only 1 crown but many in the other? Reason, it's not Jesus in rev 6:2. An if it were, why does he need the aid of the other 3 riders? Would they all not have "white" horses, and crowns since they came down from heaven? No point on changing horses, since their all righteous anyways.

Also, the rider is to conquer, can you show me one time where God made someone "accept" or "choose" him against their will? To envision Jesus having to conquer our hearts seems counter intuitive. It would appear then we as man have zero choice in accepting the gift of salvation, Jesus will conquer our hearts wether we allow him to or not (i do not agree with this, but if he's conquering our hearts as you believe then this is exactly what that means).

Food for thought.

Hi krazed,

I don't know if you're still checking in on this thread, but I did want to add another piece of Scripture for you to check on. You mention that Jesus would not be this rider because he has many crowns, not just one. Well...

In the Revelation, chapter 14, Jesus is described as 'one looking like the son of man' with a crown of gold on his head. Of course, that assumes that this one that John saw was the son of man. We are told in other places of the Scriptures that it will be Jesus who comes to gather his own and that's what this one does.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Dave Watchman

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What I want know from you is a quote from any of the above references, or from any other historical bible commentator reference you can think of - that addresses the for 7 years requirement law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as being the "_________" confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

If you can't, then why should your arguments be given any credibility?

Doug, I don't understand what Deuteronomy 31 has to do with the 70th week of Daniel 9. Am I slow or more dense than I thought? What does the reading of the old Mosaic laws every seven years at the Feast of Booths have to do with "he confirms the covenant for seven years" in Daniel 9? Are you saying it is the same seven years?
 
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Dave Watchman

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The details are useful in discernment. Why does Jesus need a bow here yet the other passage of him a sword? Why does Jesus have only 1 crown but many in the other? Reason, it's not Jesus in rev 6:2.


Because He won. The bow is not for shooting arrows, it's a winner's bow like the blue ribbon given to the winner of a race. Don't worry, He'll get more than a bow soon. He will have the biggest wedding feast of all time.

When I clicked on the video link I get: my drunk wife makes grilled cheeses.

I normally wouldn't touch the seals with a ten foot pole. There is a theory that seal # 1 was opened in 1798 after the beast received his mortal head wound. I think seal # 4 comes next and it's looking to be a bad one.
 
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Douggg

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Doug rewrote:
What I want know from you is a quote from any of the above references, or from any other historical bible commentator reference you can think of - that addresses the for 7 years requirement law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as being the "_________" confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

Sorry, Doug, but if this is the rewrite...I'm more confused. Did you mean that "for 7 years requirement" was to be in quotes?

2, The ______ would have to be a subject (person) doing the confirming; but the question is calling for a requirement to be that subject!?!?

Needs work.
Well some commentators would fill the blank with "the messiah". Other commentators would fill the blank as "the Antichrist".

What I want to know is, no matter which way a commentator fills that blank, do any of them, name one, who references Deuteronomy 31:10-11 as being the confirms the covenant for 7 years.

Your are reading commentaries, Inter, name one who addresses Deuteronomy 31:10-11 in regards to confirms the covenant for 7 years.
 
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Douggg

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Doug, I don't understand what Deuteronomy 31 has to do with the 70th week of Daniel 9. Am I slow or more dense than I thought? What does the reading of the old Mosaic laws every seven years at the Feast of Booths have to do with "he confirms the covenant for seven years" in Daniel 9? Are you saying it is the same seven years?
Dave, it is not the whole Mosaic Laws, although Moses did instruct them to put a copy in the Ark.

The time had come for that second generation to go in and possess the land. Moses wasn't allowed to go in himself.

As a remembrance to all future generations of what all they the Children of Israel went through, Moses made a law right then to have a periodic remembrance based on a 7 year interval, a commemorative speech on the feast of tabernacles day - which the feast of tabernacles itself is an acting out ceremony of how they had spent the time in the wilderness.

That commemorative speech was to be done by all future generations and from the place of God's choosing. In essence it was confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant that the land God gave the Children of Israel was theirs forever.

Thus, in Daniel 9, the part in verse 27, about he shall confirms the covenant "for" one week (7 years). The "for" part alerts us to what exactly is meant by that overall phrase "confirms the covenant for one week (7years)"

Outside of Judaism, the Deuteronomy 31:10-11 requirement is not widely known about, especially in Christian circles - and all of the expert bible commentators. Most futurists, out of what has been taught, is that the confirms the covenant with many for one week (7 years) is a 7 year peace plan. Which is actually wrong because the commentators are not aware of Deuteronomy 31:10-11. Which a "for 7 years" cycle was established.

I took it up with the Jews themselves if they had been observing the commemorative reading, a couple of different sources.

They both told me the same thing, and that is "no" because the place of God's choosing, they take to be the temple mount. Which of course the muslims are never going to allow a ceremony which confirms that God gave the land of Israel to the Jews forever.

The cycle itself has been lost because it has not be done for such a long time. The Antichrist, who will be perceived by the Jews (for a short time) as their messiah, following Gog/Magog, end of Islam, will oversee the commemorative reading from the temple mount resetting that cycle. Which is he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for one week (7 years), the 7 year cycle of Deuteronomy 31:10-11.

In Judaism, the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, which we know to be in Christ Jesus, the Jews claim no that "new" is not exactly what that verse means, but a "renewal" of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant.

So you can see where what the Antichrist does in confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, resetting the cycle, fits right in with the Jewish (Judaism) view of a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant. Of course the Antichrist himself will be a Jew, and his religion will be Judaism of sorts.

In Judaism, they teach that every Jew of every generation has the potential to be the messiah. That teaching will serve to plant a seed in the Antichrist that he is the guy. He will have a huge ego to think of himself in that manner.

In Jewish mysticism, the Kabbalah, the adepts, that is, those who are expert practitioners in it, as part of their belief think that they can harness the power of the angels to carry out their (the adept's) agenda. The Antichrist will be into that heavily and will have success because Satan and his angels will cater to him. Daniel 8 calls it "craft", and understanding dark sentences.

In Judaism, they don't view Satan as Christians do. They view Satan as the obedient servant to God carrying out a job assigned to him as being the adversary. It is a perverted view for sure. But we are trying to figure out what will make the Antichrist tick.

Also, in Judaism, as I have been told many times by the Jews, that the Antichrist concept has no place in Judaism. Well, you can see their point because the term and concept comes from Christianity. So the Antichrist in that environment is not even going to be thinking that he is the Antichrist (a Christian concept), but that he is the long awaited messiah, fancying himself in that manner.

Being into craft for his success is what makes him the man of sin, because he will be relying on the father of sin, Satan, for his success. Which will ultimately come out, when Satan puts it in his heart that he has achieved God-hood.

So what we have in Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, then Daniel 9 is the path of the Antichrist's rise to becoming thought of by the Jews (for a short time) as the messiah, the promise great King of Israel, son of David.

Then later in 2thessalonians2, his fall - when he reveals himself as the man of sin. And goes on to becoming the beast in Revelation for that last 42 months leading up to Jesus's glorious return to save the world from complete annihilation.
 
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Interplanner

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All this breaks up the 490 years, which Paul said had come to the end as intended--the full wrath of God on Israel in the mid-1st century. The leader of the rebellion of Dan 8 was understood by the trained priest Josephus to be the leader of the rebellion of the 1st century. You can even argue that Caiaphas thought he was doing Israel a favor by getting rid of Jesus (assuming C thought the leader was Jesus).

I don't think it is a good idea to base so much on 'having figured out Satan.'

This is the first time I recall God's mission being to save the earth from annihilation. From 2Pet 3 it gets melted down, to make way for a new earth...

Many commentators mention that there is a mirror of Christ and the leader of the rebellion in the Dan 9 passage. And that the verb for confirm is difficult; to confirm can also mean to 'make harsh.' The latter is a good description of the Taliban-like zealots of the 1st century.
 
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JLB777

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All this breaks up the 490 years, which Paul said had come to the end as intended--the full wrath of God on Israel in the mid-1st century. The leader of the rebellion of Dan 8 was understood by the trained priest Josephus to be the leader of the rebellion of the 1st century. You can even argue that Caiaphas thought he was doing Israel a favor by getting rid of Jesus (assuming C thought the leader was Jesus).

I don't think it is a good idea to base so much on 'having figured out Satan.'

This is the first time I recall God's mission being to save the earth from annihilation. From 2Pet 3 it gets melted down, to make way for a new earth...

Many commentators mention that there is a mirror of Christ and the leader of the rebellion in the Dan 9 passage. And that the verb for confirm is difficult; to confirm can also mean to 'make harsh.' The latter is a good description of the Taliban-like zealots of the 1st century.

The problem with your theory is, the events of 70 AD has nothing to do with the 70 weeks, nothing!


25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Verse 26 describes two separate events that span nearly 37 years of time, and are not within the 70 weeks time-frame.


  • Messiah shall be cut off - 33 AD

  • destroy the city and the sanctuary. 70 AD
These two events can not "fit" into seven years.


These two events are shown in verse 26 together are are not a part of the 70 week time-frame.



These two events occurred "outside" of the 70 weeks time-frame.


The 70th week doesn't start until verse 27 which is sometime after the year 70 AD.


The events of verse 27, occur after the year 70 AD in the time line of this prophecy.



27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."



JLB
 
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Interplanner

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God can delay when he wants to have mercy.

Paul thought it was all over when he wrote the Thess letters. But God tarried another 20 some years.

All of those passages through Luke and from Mt 21's parable in which the city is ruined are about the DofJ. "All this will fall on this generation" Mt 23; "This is the punishment in fulfillment of all that is written" Lk 21.

There is nothing theoretical about it. Lk 19's declarations use the structure of OT prophecy but the vocabulary of Roman military equipment. There is nothing theoretical about that.
 
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JLB777

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God can delay when he wants to have mercy.

Paul thought it was all over when he wrote the Thess letters. But God tarried another 20 some years.

All of those passages through Luke and from Mt 21's parable in which the city is ruined are about the DofJ. "All this will fall on this generation" Mt 23; "This is the punishment in fulfillment of all that is written" Lk 21.

There is nothing theoretical about it. Lk 19's declarations use the structure of OT prophecy but the vocabulary of Roman military equipment. There is nothing theoretical about that.


You are just spouting you preterist commentary.

Please answer the question I asked.

Please use scripture in your posts.

JLB
 
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Interplanner

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5-6 were used.

It is more complicated than your yes or no. You are talking about how Paul timed the meaning of the 490 years as he understood it as a trained priest, and how Josephus did. You are talking about why Luke used Roman military vocab in 19. Mt 21, 22, 23, 24 are all emphatic about the impending destruction of Jerusalem when that topic comes up. It is your job to read more, post less, until you know when that topic comes up and don't put "post your scripture notices" in a post where 5+ have been mentioned.
 
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Douggg

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All this breaks up the 490 years,

Oh, you think it is a typo in the KJV that has 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then one week?

which Paul said had come to the end as intended--the full wrath of God on Israel in the mid-1st century. The leader of the rebellion of Dan 8 was understood by the trained priest Josephus to be the leader of the rebellion of the 1st century. You can even argue that Caiaphas thought he was doing Israel a favor by getting rid of Jesus (assuming C thought the leader was Jesus).

How can the little horn in Daniel 8 be someone internal to Israel? The little horn comes from a direction North and West of Israel.

This is the first time I recall God's mission being to save the earth from annihilation. From 2Pet 3 it gets melted down, to make way for a new earth...

You have never heard of Matthew 24 ?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Many commentators mention that there is a mirror of Christ and the leader of the rebellion in the Dan 9 passage. And that the verb for confirm is difficult; to confirm can also mean to 'make harsh.' The latter is a good description of the Taliban-like zealots of the 1st century.

I think you missed the challenge to you -

"You are reading commentaries, Inter, name one who addresses Deuteronomy 31:10-11 in regards to confirms the covenant for 7 years."
 
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JLB777

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5-6 were used.

It is more complicated than your yes or no. You are talking about how Paul timed the meaning of the 490 years as he understood it as a trained priest, and how Josephus did. You are talking about why Luke used Roman military vocab in 19. Mt 21, 22, 23, 24 are all emphatic about the impending destruction of Jerusalem when that topic comes up. It is your job to read more, post less, until you know when that topic comes up and don't put "post your scripture notices" in a post where 5+ have been mentioned.


You have no answer to a simple question?

No doubt!!!


Jesus never mentioned one single word about the events of 70 AD in the Olivet Discourse.

Preterism is built upon the shifting sand of man's false doctrine!


JLB
 
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Interplanner

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Interesting that you should mention the 7-8 break. The succession stays coherent. Likewise, we should do the same thing for 69-70.

The little horn wanted to rebel against the 4th empire over Israel. The guy leads the rebellion that desolates.

Mt24A is about Judea in the 1st century. 'gea' often just means the land of Israel. It was annihilated alright! I don't see where NT eschatology mixes 1st century Judea and distant-future worldwide settings.

I see the apostles mentioned Dt 18 regarding the final prophet, but didn't mention the 7 year cycle in Dt 30. Maybe that is because of v13 and once exiled, they didn't know if it applied the same. An exile, after all, is a serious change of circumstance and admin, wouldn't you agree.

I really advise against going with OT passages on your own, when the apostles bothered to mention something as rarified as Ps 109 about the selection of Matthias to replace Judas! why should we get "stuck" on a passage which they did NOT mention?

The only thing the apostles preached from Dan 9 was that the person would be in Jerusalem and he would ruin the place. They were to get out when they caught wind of that. Paul said it was the proof of the final wrath of of God embedded in the 490 years, in Thess.
 
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Interplanner

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Read all 5 JLB and get back to me. I have no idea how you can miss it. It starts with the wretched end of the workers in 21:41, although Lk 19 is earlier (and other things in Luke are earlier).

But please stop with the false accusation of not using anything at all. It is the plainest meaning of those passages I know of, after years of observation. And knowing everything the futurists are trying to say. Paul said--past tense--the wrath was there, in Thess.
 
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Douggg

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The little horn wanted to rebel against the 4th empire over Israel. The guy leads the rebellion that desolates.

Inter, the little horn cannot come from Israel.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
 
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JLB777

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Read all 5 JLB and get back to me. I have no idea how you can miss it. It starts with the wretched end of the workers in 21:41, although Lk 19 is earlier (and other things in Luke are earlier).

But please stop with the false accusation of not using anything at all. It is the plainest meaning of those passages I know of, after years of observation. And knowing everything the futurists are trying to say. Paul said--past tense--the wrath was there, in Thess.


This scripture from Zechariah describes the Coming of the Lord at the end of the age, whereby every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.


9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:9-10

If all the people of Israel HAVE SEEN THE MESSIAH, AND THEY ALL HAVE MOURNED AS THEY SEE HIM, why do they still reject Him as Messiah?


Are you trying to imply that this scripture has been fulfilled, if so write out the scripture that you believe fulfills it.


If not then you are just rambling on with man's commentary.


JLB
 
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