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Daniel's 2300 days - what's interesting is what's missing

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HisdaughterJen

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Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?”
Dan 8:14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”




2300 days = 6.39 years (360 day calendar) which equals 6 years, 4 months and 20 days.

and

7 years = 2520 days (1260+1260)

which is a difference of 220 days (2520-2300) or 7 months and 10 days.

Now, check this out:

Lev 16:29"This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work--whether native-born or an alien living among you--


Lev 23:27"The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the Lord by fire.




Lev 25:9Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.




Num 29:7" 'On the tenth day of this seventh month hold a sacred assembly. You must deny yourselves and do no work.




So the Feast of Trumpets is the first day of the 7th month.

The Day of Atonement is the 10th day of the 7th month.

The Feast of Tabernacles is the 15th day of the 7th month.



Does anybody think this is significant or understand what it means, if anything?
 

hraedisc

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DOD

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Any explanation of the 2300 days that places it outside of the period to which it is ascribed by the angel Gabriel is, on its face, false. Before examining the 2300 days, let’s take a moment to establish the setting and some specific historical flags that are provided to us in Dan. 8. First, we are informed in Dan. 8:1 that Daniel received this vision in the third year of the reign of Belshazzar. Belshazzar was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, and was the king of the Babylonian empire. The Babylonian empire would eventually fall to the combined forces of the Medes and the Persians, but that was still approximately twelve years into the future.

In the vision, Daniel sees a ram (Dan. 8:3) and a male goat (Dan. 8:5). Beginning in Dan. 8:16, the angel Gabriel begins to explain the vision. Although there are aspects even of Gabriel’s explanation of the vision that are not immediately clear on the surface, there are two points about which Gabriel leaves no room for question or doubt. First, he declares that the ram with two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia (Dan. 8:20). Second, he says that the male goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and that the large horn between his eyes is its first king (Dan. 8:21). This is an unmistakable reference to Alexander the Great. There were four other horns, and then a fifth horn that came up out of one of these four horns… but every one of these “horns” was connected directly to the male goat (which Gabriel said represents Greece).

From an historical perspective, the Babylonian empire (which held power at the time of this vision) was conquered by the Medo-Persian empire (represented by the ram in Dan. 8). The Medo-Persian empire was later overthrown by Alexander the Great and the Grecian empire (represented by the male goat with the large horn between its eyes in Dan. 8). The Grecian empire, of course, would eventually fall to the Romans, though this is not mentioned in Dan. 8 (although it is described in other parts of this book). The point is that the “2300 days” is described as occurring after the Grecian empire became the predominant world empire, and before ascendancy of the Roman empire. This is key: any interpretation of the “2300 days” that pushes its fulfillment outside of this historical window cannot be true. Consequently, in order to understand the “2300 days” we need to examine the period “between the testaments” when Greece was the ruling influence.

With that historical background and perspective in mind, I would suggest that the large horn between the eyes of the male goat represented Alexander the Great, and the four horns that came up when this large horn was broken represented the division of the Grecian empire among the four generals after the unexpected death of Alexander. These generals were: Lysimachus (who ruled Thrace and Bithynia), Cassander (who ruled Macedonia and Greece), Seleucus (who ruled Syria, Babylonia, and the eastern territories), and Ptolemy (who ruled Egypt, Palestine, and Arabia Petrea). Although there may be minor disagreements as to the identity of the men who ruled the divided emire, there is no question that Greece split into four major parts, just as is described in Dan. 8. The “little horn” that came out of one of the four horns (that represented the divided Grecian empire) is none other than Antiochus Epiphanes, who would prove to be especially vengeful against the Jews and would persecute them brutally. Among the many atrocities that this man instigated was the termination of the constant sacrifices in the temple, including the daily morning and evening sacrifices. This is the second key to understanding this vision, because it is directly tied to the “2300 days.”

OK, now with this background, let’s take a look at Daniel’s vision of the “2300 days.”

The Hebrew text actually reads 2300 “evenings and mornings” rather than “days.” From a closer look at the context it is clear that the time period dates from the taking away of the daily sacrifices until the time that they were restored (Dan. 8:12-14). Concerning the daily sacrifices, one was offered in the morning, and another in the evening. This accounts for the Hebrew text which reads “2300 evenings and mornings,” and makes it clear that the reference is not to 2300 literal days, but to 2300 daily sacrifices, or 1150 morning sacrifices and 1150 evening sacrifices.

Few dates are better established in antiquity than the dates of the interruption of the daily sacrifices and their restoration. In 1Maccabees 1:54 we are told:
"On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God."
The termination is established in the same book I Mac. 4:52,53
"And they arose before the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year, and they offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar..."
The interval should number 1150 days or 2,300 daily sacrifices. The problem is that there are three years and ten days between the two events according to the account in I Maccabees. Three years and ten days is 3 x 365 + 10 which is 1,105. That is forty five days short of the required number. This gets us close – but not close enough!

This reason for this difficulty is because of the erroneous reliance on the Julian calendar, in which a year equals 365 days. In fact, however, the Julian calendar was not in official use until 45 B.C. The dates given in Maccabees are based on a Greek calendar which did not compute the year with 365 days. This clear statement of fact is often overlooked and is part of the reason for the lack of success in interpreting this prophecy.

Prior to 45 B.C. the year was most often computed using a lunar calendar based on the phases of the moon – hence, month. There were a variety of ways to compute the year and make the seasons come out right. The lunar calendar of the earliest Greeks had 354 days. According to Encyclopedia Brittanica they had a year that was composed of six months containing 29 days, and six months of 30 days. Every other year an intercalary month of 30 days was added between the first and second months. The intercalary month was omitted in the eighth year of the cycle to make the seasons come back to the right dates.

Using the most ancient Greek lunar calendar of 354 days and considering that it is quite possible for the first and last year in any three year cycle to have intercalary months. If this were the case, we then would come up with the following computation: 3 years and 10 days would be 3 years x 354 days/year, plus 2 intercalary months x 30 days/month, plus 10 days. Working out the math, that is equal to 1132 days. It is 18 days short of the required 1150 days that would be necessary to complete 2,300 daily sacrifices. The most ancient Greek calendar gets us closer, but still not close enough.

Herodotus, writing about the year 445 BC, discusses a statement made by Solon to Croesus, a Greek king in Asia Minor. Solon was talking about the relativity of happiness in life, and he cites the usual length of a man's life. He says:
“Take seventy years as the span of a man's life. Those seventy years contain 25,200 days without counting intercalary months. Add a month every other year to make the seasons come round with proper regularity, and you will have 35 additional months which will make 1050 days. Thus the total days of your seventy years is 26,250 and not a single one of them is like the next in what it brings."
From this ancient, historical record, we can determine how many days constituted a calendar year among the Greeks around 445 BC. According to this passage the length of the Greek year (excluding the intercalary months) is 25,200 days divided by 70 years or 360 days/year. This would have been the year to Solon, Croesus, Herodotus, and most likely to Antiochus Epiphenes and the Maccabees. With further observation we can see that 1,050 days divided by 35 intercalary months gives 30 days as the length of the intercalary month. Now, using the Greek calendar according to Herodotus and assuming that the years 146 and 148 BC were intercalary years, we come up with the following calculation: 9/15/145 BC to 9/25/148 BC (the dates given in Maccabees from the desecration to the cleansing), is three years and ten days. Thus, the math sentence based on the Greek calendar which was in use at the time the prophecy was fulfilled would be: (3 years x 360 days/year) + (2 intercalary month x 30 days/intercalary month) + 10 days. Here’s how it lays out:
  • 3 years x 360 days per year = 1080 days
  • 2 intercalary months x 30 days per intercalary month = 60 days
  • From the 15th day to the 25th day of the 9th months = 10 days
  • Total Number of Days = 1150 days
This is exactly the period which would accomplish exactly 2,300 daily sacrifices, one in the morning and one in the evening. Using the Greek calendar is obviously the correct way to compute the number of days between the dates in Maccabees. Using that method arrives at the correct computation. The “2300 day” vision described the termination of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus Epiphanes on the 25th day of the ninth month of the year 148 BC, and the subsequent resumption of those sacrifices on the fifteenth day of the ninth month of the year 145 BC. The 2300 day vision was fulfilled during the period between the testaments.
 
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RND

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. The “2300 day” vision described the termination of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus Epiphanes on the 25th day of the ninth month of the year 148 BC, and the subsequent resumption of those sacrifices on the fifteenth day of the ninth month of the year 145 BC. The 2300 day vision was fulfilled during the period between the testaments.

Considering that all history records the year in which Rome defeated Greece as 146BC, how does this fit into your time line? Also, considering that 2300 days would equate in 6.38 years, where do these 6.38 years fit into your timeline as well and what "historic" events happened during these 6.38 years?

Lastly, in the NT we clearly see that ALL sacrifices had continued. In your scenario, when and by what degree did these sacrifices resume? Use scripture if you can.
 
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DOD

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RND

Considering that all history records the year in which Rome defeated Greece as 146BC, how does this fit into your time line?
It doesn’t need to fit into my time line because, as I have shown, the things described in Dan. 8 were fulfilled before Rome came on the scene. The fulfillment of the “2300 days” was during the time of Antiochus Epiphanies approximately 165 BC.

Also, considering that 2300 days would equate in 6.38 years, where do these 6.38 years fit into your timeline as well and what "historic" events happened during these 6.38 years?
You must not have read my post very carefully. The reference to “2300 days” in some English translations is not an accurate translation of the Hebrew. The Hebrew text actually reads “2300 evenings and mornings,” and the reference is to the evening and morning sacrifices. There were two “daily” sacrifices – one in the morning, one in the evening. It would take 1150 days in order for there to be a total of 2300 “daily” sacrifices (1150 morning sacrifices + 1150 evening sacrifices = 2300 “daily” sacrifices in all). When we look at the historical references provided to us in 1Maccabees 1:54 (which chronicles the date at which the daily sacrifices were stopped) and 1Maccabees 4:52-53 (which chronicles the date that the daily sacrifices began again), we find historical evidence for a period of exactly 1150 days in which the morning and evening sacrifices were not observed. This is exactly the period spoken of in Dan. 8.

Lastly, in the NT we clearly see that ALL sacrifices had continued. In your scenario, when and by what degree did these sacrifices resume? Use scripture if you can.
Dan. 8 was referring to the temporary cessation of the morning and evening sacrifices. As noted above, these sacrifices were terminated by Antiochus Ephipanes, and reinstituted a little more than 3 years later by the Maccabeans following the death of Antiochus.
 
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hraedisc

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...Dan. 8 was referring to the temporary cessation of the morning and evening sacrifices. As noted above, these sacrifices were terminated by Antiochus Ephipanes...
No way.
Specifications of Daniel 8 Not Met.—The view that makes Antiochus the little horn of Daniel 8, which becomes "exceeding great," must also be examined. There is a tempting plausibility in the fact that Antiochus did actually come "out of one of" the four horn-kingdoms on the head of the Greco-Macedonian goat. Nevertheless, even aside from the fact that there is a difference of opinion as to whether "out of one of them" means out of one of the horn-kingdoms or out of one of "the four winds" (verses 8, 9)—i.e., one of the four directions of the compass—there are obstacles to considering Antiochus an adequate fulfillment of the prophetic specifications.

a. In the first place, Antiochus was not a "horn." The four horns of the goat were "four kingdoms" (verse 22), the largest of which was the Seleucid (or Syrian) kingdom. Antiochus was not a separate horn, or kingdom, but one of the kings of the Seleucid horn, and hence a part of one of the horns.
328
b. Antiochus did not wax "exceeding great" (verse 9) in comparison with the Greco-Macedonian empire of Alexander (verse 8). Antiochus was not even the most powerful king of the Seleucid division of Alexander's empire.

c. Antiochus hardly grew exceeding great through conquest (verse 9). His push to "the south" into Egypt was stopped by the mere word of a Roman officer, his expedition to "the east" resulted in his death, and his dominion of "the pleasant land" of Palestine did not last, for his persecution of the Jews drove them to resistance that later resulted in their independence.

d. The horn's fury against "the host of heaven" (verse 10), who are evidently equated with "the mighty and the holy people" (verse 24), is plausibly a reference to Antiochus' persecution of the Jews. However, if the specifications point rather to another power that also persecuted the people of God, this verse cannot be decisive.

e. Against what "prince of the host" (verse 11) or "Prince of princes" (verse 25) did Antiochus stand? A mere Jewish priest is hardly such a figure, "Prince of princes" could be only an unusual designation for God or Christ, whose worship he attacked.

f. Antiochus did take away the "daily sacrifice" to the true God, though he did not abolish the Temple sacrifices, he substituted others in honor of heathen gods. However, he only desecrated "the place of his sanctuary", it was not "cast down" until the Romans destroyed it in A.D. 70.

g. His attempts to "cast down the truth" (verse 12)
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were unsuccessful. The net result of his persecution was to strengthen the truth by uniting the Jews against the Hellenization of Judaism.

h. Though Antiochus was not a weak king, his ambitious policy can scarcely be said to have "practised, and prospered" (verses 12, compare verse 24), nor did his "craft . . . prosper in his hand" (verse 25) in attaining his ends.

i. The attempts to reckon the 2300 days (verse 14) as the literal period of Antiochus' desecration of the Temple fail in making the chronology fit any of the sources (see p. 330, Sec. 6).

j. Antiochus did not reign "in the latter time of" the Hellenistic kingdoms of Alexander's empire (verse 23), but nearly in the middle of the period.

k. Antiochus was "fierce" toward the Jews, but was not noted for "understanding dark sentences" (verse 23).

l. His "power" was not outstandingly "mighty," nor can it be said that it was "not by his own power" (verse 24). At least such phrases give no particular confirmation to the identification of Antiochus.

m. Antiochus was not "broken without hand" (verse 25), there is no suggestion of anything miraculous or mysterious about either his failure with the Jews or his death.

n. To find, as some do, the Papacy as the little horn in chapter 7, and Antiochus as the little horn in chapter 8, is to throw the two prophecies out of balance—to interfere with the obvious parallel between the two series of world powers presented (see p. 335). If chapter 7 follows the sequence from Babylon—
330
through Persia, Alexander's empire, and his divided successors, on through the Roman Empire and the Papacy-down to the judgment, then chapter 8, which begins with Persia, one step later, should cover the same sequence—Persia, Alexander, the four horn-kingdoms that grew out of his empire, and then another horn, obviously another kingdom. To preserve the obvious parallel, this horn should logically be the next world power after the Hellenistic monarchies, namely Rome, and we should expect the scope of the prophecy to be similar to that of chapter 7, that is, extending to the end, when the horn would be broken without hand. (This does not mean that the two little horns are in all respects identical; see p. 337).

Although certain details of this prophecy of Daniel 8 might be considered applicable to the activities of Antiochus, yet the figure of that ruler, with his moderate successes and outstanding failures, is entirely too small to fill the picture.
Antiochus Epiphanes and the Prophetic Specification of Daniel
 
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RND

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It doesn’t need to fit into my time line because, as I have shown, the things described in Dan. 8 were fulfilled before Rome came on the scene. The fulfillment of the “2300 days” was during the time of Antiochus Epiphanies approximately 165 BC.

If the 2300 days were "fulfilled" in 165BC that would be roughtly 17 years before this scenario you mentioned had takened place:

The “2300 day” vision described the termination of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus Epiphanes on the 25th day of the ninth month of the year 148 BC, and the subsequent resumption of those sacrifices on the fifteenth day of the ninth month of the year 145 BC.



You must not have read my post very carefully. The reference to “2300 days” in some English translations is not an accurate translation of the Hebrew. The Hebrew text actually reads “2300 evenings and mornings,” and the reference is to the evening and morning sacrifices. There were two “daily” sacrifices – one in the morning, one in the evening. It would take 1150 days in order for there to be a total of 2300 “daily” sacrifices (1150 morning sacrifices + 1150 evening sacrifices = 2300 “daily” sacrifices in all). When we look at the historical references provided to us in 1Maccabees 1:54 (which chronicles the date at which the daily sacrifices were stopped) and 1Maccabees 4:52-53 (which chronicles the date that the daily sacrifices began again), we find historical evidence for a period of exactly 1150 days in which the morning and evening sacrifices were not observed. This is exactly the period spoken of in Dan. 8.

Even if this were true and the 6.38 years was extended to equate to a sacrifice for each morning and evening then that would be roughtly just a little over 13 years. How do you account for the other 3+ years in your scenario?

Dan. 8 was referring to the temporary cessation of the morning and evening sacrifices. As noted above, these sacrifices were terminated by Antiochus Ephipanes, and reinstituted a little more than 3 years later by the Maccabeans following the death of Antiochus.

Yes, you've mentioned that. I asked for some scripture that could confirm that view. Do you have any to offer?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Gen 1:5God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

Gen 1:8God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.

Gen 1:13And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.

Gen 1:19And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.

Gen 1:23And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.

Gen 1:31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.



Now, there's nothing to indicate that the angel's words in Daniel about evenings and mornings should be divided in half in the count.

A day begins in the evening in Judaism.
 
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RND

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Gen 1:5God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

Gen 1:8God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.

Gen 1:13And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.

Gen 1:19And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.

Gen 1:23And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.

Gen 1:31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.



Now, there's nothing to indicate that the angel's words in Daniel about evenings and mornings should be divided in half in the count.

A day begins in the evening in Judaism.

Nice take dear! Very good! One attagirl for you!
 
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DOD

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RND,

If the 2300 days were "fulfilled" in 165BC that would be roughtly 17 years before this scenario you mentioned had takened place:
Quote:
The “2300 day” vision described the termination of the daily sacrifices by Antiochus Epiphanes on the 25th day of the ninth month of the year 148 BC, and the subsequent resumption of those sacrifices on the fifteenth day of the ninth month of the year 145 BC.
You know, I realized after I posted my last comments that I had misspoken in the earlier post. My reference to “145 BC” was sloppy and incorrect. I was referring to the passage in 1Maccabees 1:54 which speaks of the time when the daily sacrifices were terminated:
"On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God."
In my sloppiness, I incorrectly referred to this as “145BC” when in fact that is not the case (as you have pointed out). Obviously, since 1Maccabees was written well before Christ, there is no way that the writer could have used the “BC/AD” demarcation that we use today. Instead, they marked dates in reference to various key events (in this case, the 145th year of the kingdom of the Greeks). In 1Mac. 4:52-53, the same dating scheme is followed wherein the writer documents the commencement of the daily sacrifices “the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year…” The bottom line is that I incorrectly identified the year as 145 “BC” rather than “the 145th year” of the kingdom of the Greeks. That would have put this at around 168 BC if my math is correct. I’m sorry for the confusion, and hope that clears that up. Thanks for noticing it, and for bringing it to my attention.

Even if this were true and the 6.38 years was extended to equate to a sacrifice for each morning and evening then that would be roughtly just a little over 13 years. How do you account for the other 3+ years in your scenario?
No, you’re working in the wrong direction. Dan. 8 is not referring to 2300 “days”, but to 2300 sacrifices. With two sacrifices every day (one in the morning, and one in the evening) it would take only 1150 days in order to offer 2300 daily sacrifices.

Yes, you've mentioned that. I asked for some scripture that could confirm that view. Do you have any to offer?
The only scripture that I can offer is what is right there in Dan. 8. Gabriel makes it clear that the vision pertaining to the 2300 “mornings and evenings” sacrifices would occur in connection with the Grecian empire. We know when that was, and we know (from the references in 1Maccabees) that around 165 BC, during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes, that the morning and evening sacrifices were abolished for a period of exactly 1150 days. So, we’ve got a prophecy which an angel tells us would be fulfilled during the days of the Grecian empire, and we’ve got documentary evidence from secular history that the events described in that prophecy occurred during the Grecian empire. What more do you need? Why does everyone feel compelled to completely dismiss the factual evidence of history, and embrace every fanciful, speculative theory that comes down the pike about a future fulfillment?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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RND,


You know, I realized after I posted my last comments that I had misspoken in the earlier post. My reference to “145 BC” was sloppy and incorrect. I was referring to the passage in 1Maccabees 1:54 which speaks of the time when the daily sacrifices were terminated: In my sloppiness, I incorrectly referred to this as “145BC” when in fact that is not the case (as you have pointed out). Obviously, since 1Maccabees was written well before Christ, there is no way that the writer could have used the “BC/AD” demarcation that we use today. Instead, they marked dates in reference to various key events (in this case, the 145th year of the kingdom of the Greeks). In 1Mac. 4:52-53, the same dating scheme is followed wherein the writer documents the commencement of the daily sacrifices “the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year…” The bottom line is that I incorrectly identified the year as 145 “BC” rather than “the 145th year” of the kingdom of the Greeks. That would have put this at around 168 BC if my math is correct. I’m sorry for the confusion, and hope that clears that up. Thanks for noticing it, and for bringing it to my attention.

No, you’re working in the wrong direction. Dan. 8 is not referring to 2300 “days”, but to 2300 sacrifices. With two sacrifices every day (one in the morning, and one in the evening) it would take only 1150 days in order to offer 2300 daily sacrifices.

The only scripture that I can offer is what is right there in Dan. 8. Gabriel makes it clear that the vision pertaining to the 2300 “mornings and evenings” sacrifices would occur in connection with the Grecian empire. We know when that was, and we know (from the references in 1Maccabees) that around 165 BC, during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes, that the morning and evening sacrifices were abolished for a period of exactly 1150 days. So, we’ve got a prophecy which an angel tells us would be fulfilled during the days of the Grecian empire, and we’ve got documentary evidence from secular history that the events described in that prophecy occurred during the Grecian empire. What more do you need? Why does everyone feel compelled to completely dismiss the factual evidence of history, and embrace every fanciful, speculative theory that comes down the pike about a future fulfillment?

Why jump to sacrifices with that passage of scripture?

Undoubtedly, there are no sacrifices happening during those 2300 evenings and mornings because the sanctuary isn't reconsecrated until 2300 days after the abomination and desolation.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?”
Dan 8:14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
 
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HisdaughterJen

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We also know that the 2300 evenings and mornings is referring to the same "seven" as Daniel 9 when the abomination is set up and desolation occurs because it is describing the same event.

Now, one seven is 7 years or 2520 days. Why is there, then, only 2300 days from the time the abom is set up until the sanctuary is reconsecrated?
Is it because the time is shortened for the sake of the elect?
Ezek 40-48 shows the sanctuary being reconsecrated (chapter 43, in particular).

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that 2300 days is 7 months 10 days shy of one 'seven' and there are scriptures that talk about the day of atonement to be celebrated on the 10th day of the 7th month? Is that a coincidence or what could it mean?
 
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RND,


You know, I realized after I posted my last comments that I had misspoken in the earlier post. My reference to “145 BC” was sloppy and incorrect. I was referring to the passage in 1Maccabees 1:54 which speaks of the time when the daily sacrifices were terminated: In my sloppiness, I incorrectly referred to this as “145BC” when in fact that is not the case (as you have pointed out). Obviously, since 1Maccabees was written well before Christ, there is no way that the writer could have used the “BC/AD” demarcation that we use today. Instead, they marked dates in reference to various key events (in this case, the 145th year of the kingdom of the Greeks). In 1Mac. 4:52-53, the same dating scheme is followed wherein the writer documents the commencement of the daily sacrifices “the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year…” The bottom line is that I incorrectly identified the year as 145 “BC” rather than “the 145th year” of the kingdom of the Greeks. That would have put this at around 168 BC if my math is correct. I’m sorry for the confusion, and hope that clears that up. Thanks for noticing it, and for bringing it to my attention.

Alexander conquered Persia in 334BC. If we were to add 145 years to your scenario, we would come to approximately 189BC, a full twenty+ years before Antiochus Epiphanes could have come to power. How do you explain this difference?

No, you’re working in the wrong direction. Dan. 8 is not referring to 2300 “days”, but to 2300 sacrifices. With two sacrifices every day (one in the morning, and one in the evening) it would take only 1150 days in order to offer 2300 daily sacrifices.

Assuming I am working in the wrong direct two things come to mind.

1) Where in scripture can we deduce that the 2300 days are "divided" in two?

2) If we divide the 6.38 years in two, as you suggest, we come to 3.19 years. Where is this time of 3.19 years fall in your scenario?

The only scripture that I can offer is what is right there in Dan. 8. Gabriel makes it clear that the vision pertaining to the 2300 “mornings and evenings” sacrifices would occur in connection with the Grecian empire. We know when that was, and we know (from the references in 1Maccabees) that around 165 BC, during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes, that the morning and evening sacrifices were abolished for a period of exactly 1150 days.

Where does this scripture or better yet HOW does this scripture tell us that the daily sacrifice would "return" only to be taken away again?

Assuming your point is correct for a moment, that Antiochus Epiphanes took away the sacrifice, what verse or collection of verses describe the "return" of the daily sacrifice only to be taken away again at an even later date?

The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is the "last sacrifice" for sin. If, by Jesus being the "last sacrifice," he took away the "daily sacrifice" where in your scenario does scripture mention that Antiochus Epiphanes would take away the sacrifice and where does scripture show that it was restored after Antiochus Epiphanes?


So, we’ve got a prophecy which an angel tells us would be fulfilled during the days of the Grecian empire, and we’ve got documentary evidence from secular history that the events described in that prophecy occurred during the Grecian empire.

Dan 8:26
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days.

And yet, your scenario doesn't seem to conclude the "many days" that Daniel's vision is accomplished.

What more do you need?

Biblical proof.

Why does everyone feel compelled to completely dismiss the factual evidence of history, and embrace every fanciful, speculative theory that comes down the pike about a future fulfillment?

Because Bible prophecy works just that way. For example, if you could somehow manage to equate your scenario into what actually transpired in scripture I might be inclinded to pay better attention.

But Dan 8:23-25 seems to suggest that after the "four horned" beast (divided Greece) "in the latter time of their kingdom" that another more powerful kingdom would conquer them. How does Antiochus Epiphanes fit in considering the power and total length of domination displayed by pagan Rome?


Dan 8:23 ¶ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
 
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DOD

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HisdaughterJen,

Now, there's nothing to indicate that the angel's words in Daniel about evenings and mornings should be divided in half in the count.

A day begins in the evening in Judaism.
Why jump to sacrifices with that passage of scripture?

Undoubtedly, there are no sacrifices happening during those 2300 evenings and mornings because the sanctuary isn’t reconsecrated until 2300 days after the abomination and desolation.
Take another look at the context:
Dan. 8:13… Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?”
Dan. 8:14… He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”
The “regular sacrifice” that is the subject of this vision (v13) is the “evening and morning” sacrifice that was offered on a daily basis. This vision pertained to a total of 2300 such sacrifices, which would have required the passing of exactly 1150 days.

According to secular history, during this period Antiochus forbade the Jews from offering their sacrifices. The sanctuary was a “desolation” so far as the Jews’ practice of their religion was concerned. Furthermore, Antiochus brought abomination upon the place. He sent an elderly Greek philosopher to Jerusalem to supervise the enforcement of his edict to Hellenize. The philosopher identified the God of Israel with Jupiter and ordered a bearded image of the pagan deity set up in the Temple. Licentious heathen rites were performed in the temple courts. Swine were sacrificed on the altar, and then everything in the temple was sprinkled with a broth made from the flesh of this unclean animal, thus completely defiling and violating the sanctuary. The drunken orgy associated with the worship of Bacchus was made compulsory. In addition, the Jews were forbidden, under penalty of death, to practice circumcision, observe the Sabbath or observe the feast of the Jewish year. Copies of the Scriptures were ordered destroyed.

Shortly after the desecration of the Temple, the Maccabean rebellion began. By the year 165 BC Judas Maccabee with his army of Jews were strong enough to take control of the city of Jerusalem. They cleansed the Temple of the idols, the rubbish, and the decay that occurred since the desecration,. They began once more to offer the sacrifices as God had directed and the Temple was restored to its proper use.

We also know that the 2300 evenings and mornings is referring to the same "seven" as Daniel 9 when the abomination is set up and desolation occurs because it is describing the same event.
They are not related at all. The 2300 “evenings and mornings” of sacrifices was to be fulfilled when the Greeks ruled the world. The seventy heptads in Dan. 9 would not be fulfilled until shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus.
 
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