Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago.

[DavidPT]

We are not allowed on this forum to answer "yes" to this question, but...

As I wrote above, the heavens being "no more" is interpreted in scripture as...

It could be meaning the following, though. And maybe you even agree?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Which I do not take to mean go completely out of existence, since I agree that that is impossible. You might argue since you are a Preterist, heaven and earth already passed away in the first century and that it is connected with 70 AD. And if so, I definitely disagree with that. Per this portion of the Discourse, Jesus is no longer focusing on things pertaining to the first century, He is focusing on things involving His bodily return in the end of this age. You obviously disagree. But since that is the way the text reads to me, I can never agree with how the same text is reading to you if it differs as to how it's reading to me.

What I find interesting about you and @claninja in particular, both of you are trying to find a solution as to how Daniel 12:2 might make sense if being applied to the first century rather than in the end of this age, and that you think the solution involved a bodily resurrection, and that @claninja thinks it involves souls that were relocated from hades to heaven. Both of you are wrong, IMO.

Yet, between both of you, you at least acknowledge that the fulfilling of that passage involves a bodily resurrection in order to fulfill it. Except you are proposing a resurrection event during a period of time history knows nothing about. If saints bodily rose from the dead in 70 AD or so, where is that recorded in ancient history? Obviously, 70 AD is recorded in ancient history. Where then does ancient history record a bodily resurrection of the dead at the time? Did Josephus record that in any of his writings at the time? If yes, why isn't @claninja arguing from that perspective as well?

 

[DavidPT]

The 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 passage never speaks of a change into the immortal condition for those believers who haven't died yet. Mankind is appointed to die once, and all who are "in Adam" as being his human descendants will inevitably die the one time. No escaping this. The "alive and remaining" ones in 1 Thessalonians 4 are the ones who had already been made alive in Paul's days by a resurrection process (like Lazarus and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints).

No one knows when Christ is going to return. Though, I don't believe He can return tonight or even tomorrow, based on that this would mean some prophecies would go unfulfilled, thus making them false prophecies, but let's assume none of that is correct, that there are unfulfilled prophecies preventing Him from returning, and that He does return tomorrow.

What about all the Christians worldwide still alive today before He returns tomorrow, millions, maybe even billions? How do you propose, per this scenario, that every Christian alive on the planet today, they are all dead before He returns tomorrow, in order to die once(Hebrews 9:27)?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It could be meaning the following, though. And maybe you even agree?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Which I do not take to mean go completely out of existence, since I agree that that is impossible. You might argue since you are a Preterist, heaven and earth already passed away in the first century and that it is connected with 70 AD. And if so, I definitely disagree with that. Per this portion of the Discourse, Jesus is no longer focusing on things pertaining to the first century, He is focusing on things involving His bodily return in the end of this age. You obviously disagree. But since that is the way the text reads to me, I can never agree with how the same text is reading to you if it differs as to how it's reading to me.

What I find interesting about you and @claninja in particular, both of you are trying to find a solution as to how Daniel 12:2 might make sense if being applied to the first century rather than in the end of this age, and that you think the solution involved a bodily resurrection, and that @claninja thinks it involves souls that were relocated from hades to heaven. Both of you are wrong, IMO.

Yet, between both of you, you at least acknowledge that the fulfilling of that passage involves a bodily resurrection in order to fulfill it. Except you are proposing a resurrection event during a period of time history knows nothing about. If saints bodily rose from the dead in 70 AD or so, where is that recorded in ancient history? Obviously, 70 AD is recorded in ancient history. Where then does ancient history record a bodily resurrection of the dead at the time? Did Josephus record that in any of his writings at the time? If yes, why isn't @claninja arguing from that perspective as well?

The belief that some mass bodily resurrection event occurred in 70 AD is one of the weaker beliefs that preterists have. I can't take it seriously at all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It could be meaning the following, though. And maybe you even agree?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Which I do not take to mean go completely out of existence, since I agree that that is impossible.

I agree - the heavens being "no more" in Job 14:12 when Job would bodily arise from the grave are the very same heaven and earth passing away in Matthew 24:35. Also, they are the very same heavens and earth being shaken AND REMOVED that Hebrews 12:27 promised was "NOW" going to happen for those reading that Hebrews 12:26-28 text. This puts a time stamp on the changing of the heavens and earth and dates it to the first-century time period.

"Whose voice then shook the earth, but NOW he hath promised, saying, 'Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven'. And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken..."

Conditions on this earth and also in the heavens above would be permanently altered after AD 70. The total destruction of the Satanic realm on this earth after that time was a boon to humanity ever since then that should not be ignored or taken lightly. And the entrance at last of a vast unnumbered multitude of bodily-resurrected saints into heaven's temple would forever change the conditions in the celestial heavens.

If saints bodily rose from the dead in 70 AD or so, where is that recorded in ancient history? Obviously, 70 AD is recorded in ancient history. Where then does ancient history record a bodily resurrection of the dead at the time? Did Josephus record that in any of his writings at the time? If yes, why isn't @claninja arguing from that perspective as well?

Here is a question: was the bodily resurrection of Christ when He left the sealed sepulchre witnessed by anybody? We have no record of anyone seeing this happen that Saturday before sunset, yet we know that Christ bodily arose that day. Christ could pass through those walls of stone as easily as He could pass through doors in His glorified state. The guards at the sepulchre standing mere feet away at that moment saw nothing until the next morning when the angels came to roll the stone away. Then they became petrified with fear.

Is it absolutely necessary that a grave should have to be physically broken open to enable a resurrected person to vacate that tomb? Not if their bodily resurrection is similar to Christ's.

Is it absolutely necessary that a resurrected person passing into the heavens with the returning Christ be visible to those below, like some film in slow motion? No, it's not. No one detected Christ ascending to His Father that morning after He greeted Mary, yet He told Mary that He was ascending that morning.

I'm asking these questions because most people presume that a bodily resurrection event is necessarily visible to the entire world's inhabitants. Remember, Christ's resurrected body could "disappear" from view voluntarily. The same ability is a characteristic of all the bodily-resurrected saints. What we do have is archaeological evidence of Christ's return, which is not permitted to mention here.

What about all the Christians worldwide still alive today before He returns tomorrow, millions, maybe even billions? How do you propose, per this scenario, that every Christian alive on the planet today, they are all dead before He returns tomorrow, in order to die once(Hebrews 9:27)?

I believe, (along with others I have read), that Christ's future return will take place as a fulfillment of the symbolism in the OC Feast of Tabernacles and the Day of Atonement; a full day in which the people were to "afflict their souls" by fasting and observing other prohibitions on that day. A day of serious, sober reflection for all on the effects of sin in their lives.
We are told that no one in this life can look on the face of God and live through that experience. I propose that at the future return of Christ, He will unveil His fully-manifested glory to the entire world's inhabitants for that day - a view which none can survive. There is a reason God is called a "consuming fire". Those who are His children will then be resurrected to eternal life. The wicked will then experience a "resurrection to destruction" in that judgment.

 

[DavidPT]

We are told that no one in this life can look on the face of God and live through that experience. I propose that at the future return of Christ, He will unveil His fully-manifested glory to the entire world's inhabitants for that day - a view which none can survive. There is a reason God is called a "consuming fire". Those who are His children will then be resurrected to eternal life. The wicked will then experience a "resurrection to destruction" in that judgment.

Speaking of something like that, here are my thoughts on the following. Don't know if anyone else might see it this way, but I certainly do.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


I take this in the literal sense myself. Which then helps explain the following, IMO.

Genesis 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed

Genesis 19:24 ¶Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
26 ¶But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.


Why would looking back cause his wife to become a pillar of salt? Maybe because of what Exodus 33:20 records, would be my guess.

All of that involved judgment on the ungodly at the time, being the reason God's face is seen in Genesis 19. Clearly, God was bodily present at the time, and clearly, Exodus 33:20 says what it says, thus means what it says. Which means you could possibly be correct that it involves them seeing His face at the time, which causes them to die since they are still mortal, then they put on immortality a split second later.

I'm not saying I agree that you are correct, but until you proposed this, something like this never crossed my mind, that this might explain how millions of Christians can be physically alive the day before, then all be dead the next day by seeing His face when He returns.

There is the following to factor in, though. Except I'm taking it mean after they have put on bodily immortality, and not before they have.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.


The more I think about it, if they already saw His face before they are changed, why is the text giving the impression that this is initially when they are seeing His face for the first time, rather than seeing His face yet again?

BTW, earlier when doing a Google search the following link popped up as one of the search results, except I wasn't doing a search for a resurrection involving 70 AD in particular. What I was searching was this---has Daniel 12:2 been fulfilled?---So anyway I decided to check the link--- Resurrection In Daniel 12:1-3 - Local Christendom

And as I was reading, I then noticed about half way down, this---Option 5: Bodily Resurrection Around AD 70

Assuming you take a look at that article, is any of that what he is arguing, the same as what you are arguing?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why would looking back cause his wife to become a pillar of salt? Maybe because of what Exodus 33:20 records, would be my guess.

Never thought about that being the cause of Lot's wife's death for her "looking back", but its entirely possible - even probable. When God chooses to unleash a full view of His majestic glory, the results on sinful man are devastating. Even a tempered exposure to God's glory can cause things like Moses needing to to wear a veil over his face to protect the Israelites after his being with God on the mountain.

There is the following to factor in, though. Except I'm taking it mean after they have put on bodily immortality, and not before they have.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.


The more I think about it, if they already saw His face before they are changed, why is the text giving the impression that this is initially when they are seeing His face for the first time, rather than seeing His face yet again?

Your first underlined statement is what I agree with. Those "servants" are "serving him" (Revelation 22:3) as they look upon His face. This would indicate that John is here speaking of the eternal state for the resurrected believers in heaven. So this view of God's face in Revelation 22:4 would be the viewing of God's face AFTER they have put on immortality in a bodily resurrection.

BTW, earlier when doing a Google search the following link popped up as one of the search results, except I wasn't doing a search for a resurrection involving 70 AD in particular. What I was searching was this---has Daniel 12:2 been fulfilled?---So anyway I decided to check the link--- Resurrection In Daniel 12:1-3 - Local Christendom

And as I was reading, I then noticed about half way down, this---Option 5: Bodily Resurrection Around AD 70

Assuming you take a look at that article, is any of that what he is arguing, the same as what you are arguing?

I did take a look at your link and read through his entire article. I give the gentleman kudos for thinking outside the box, and also for standing firm on the scriptural teaching of an eventual bodily resurrection for all the saints. Also for recognizing that there was "about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" as Paul told Felix in Acts 24:15.

He also makes the same connection that I do of the "First-fruits" bodily resurrection and the later AD 70 one with the festival patterns of Leviticus 23:9-22. So he correctly identifies the Passover and Pentecost celebrations as being linked with two resurrection events. However, he stops short on including the symbolic significance of the rest of the Leviticus 23 chapter which describes the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles started on the 10th and 15th days of the seventh month respectively. This Leviticus 23 chapter lays out the THREE (not two) required harvest feast celebrations, which were a symbolic reference to the specific timing of the three bodily resurrection events.

He has a few things included in his article that I believe to be wrong.
-He proposes that Michael is a pre-incarnate version of Christ, and that isn't possible.
-He posits the date for Satan's war in heaven at AD 66, and it really happened in AD 33 at Christ's ascension.
-It was AD 33 for the resurrection and ascension of Christ - not AD 30. That WAS the "First resurrection", which this author's article incorrectly placed in AD 70 instead.
-And the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints of that "First resurrection" did not ascend to heaven until the time of the "better resurrection" that the author of Hebrews was anticipating for the rest of the saints. The Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits saints "remained" on the earth after Christ had ascended, which is why they were referred to as the "remnant of the dead" or the "remaining ones" (the "loipoi"). These "came to life again" in Revelation 20:5 at the end of the millennium in AD 33 (which this author mistakenly has beginning in AD 70). The Matthew 27:52-53 saints were also the "alive and remaining" ones of 1 Thessalonians 4 that would wait to be raptured with the other saints who were to be resurrected at Christ's coming.
-He also wrote of the bodies of the wicked dead being resurrected. They aren't. The wicked receive "the resurrection to destruction". "The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment" (Psalms 1:4-5). Only their spirit arises from Sheol to appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Not being covered vicariously in Christ's righteousness, they are destroyed both body and soul. This is why we still have bodies such as mummies today which died before AD 70. The bodies of the wicked are abandoned in the grave to "perish" and return to dust.

But at the very least, the author of that article sounds as if he consistently tries to apply logic and research so that his conclusions can result in scripture harmonizing with itself. The scriptures we know cannot be broken. They do not contradict each other.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

We are given a definition of what constitutes this resurrection body form by the examples of "Christ the First-fruits" and also the 144,000 First-fruits which were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised out of their graves that same day. Paul said in Romans 8:23 that the church still had these "First-fruits" individuals remaining among them at that time in the first century. These bodily-resurrected 144,000 First-fruits were a mute testimony of what all the believers could expect for themselves in the next bodily resurrection to come - a great encouragement for those first-century believers to stand faithful unto death under the persecutions and martyrdom which they were then passing through.

The 144,000: Why didn't Jesus reveal Himself to them? Who were the 500 He did reveal Himself to? Why were they sealed in Rev 7 if they've already been resurrected? Why would they go to Jerusalem instead of stay their tribal lands? Why would they be a different kind of harvest from every other believer considering the Jewish believers throughout the gospels were always referred to as the harvest of "wheat"? Is there any scripture that says they were firstfruits along with Christ?

Christ's bodily resurrection is an example of our "bodily resurrection"?
He saw no corruption. So, it's not like that, is it? The exact same body Jesus died in was raised and the tomb was empty. So, if I die at old age and stricken with disease, I'll be raised in that same body? If not, give the scripture that explains what happens.

 

[claninja]

Look at A)-F) again, these are facts in general that tell us these things will happen and when they happen and what won't happen until they do.

A) If a man die, shall he live again?

B) Ye that dwell in the dust, awake and sing, the earth shall cast out the dead.

C) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise

D) man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more

E) they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep, till the heavens be no more

F) all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come



A) asks the question, if a man die, shall he live again? B)-F) answers that question.

D)-E) tell us, once a man dies, that man shall not rise, shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep, till the heavens be no more


B)-C) tell us that dead men shall live again. D)-F) tell us it is when the heavens be no more being when they shall ilve again, with F) telling us we have to wait for the appointed time, till the change comes, with D) and E) echoing that.

Why then would that not be the case involving Daniel 12:2? That those sleeping in the dust of the earth,
they rise not, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep, till the heavens be no more? The heavens being no more, was that meaning in the first century? Was that meaning in 70 AD?

And there is still this part in Daniel 12:2 to factor in---and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Maybe you haven't noticed, I don't know, but the Hebrew word used for contempt, dra'own, that Hebrew word is used in only two passages total. Maybe you see that as a coincidence, I don't. And that the latter passage below is applying it to the men that transgressed the Lord.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt(dra'own)

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring(dra'own) unto all flesh.


Getting back to this part---And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life---why would it be incorrect to interpret that in light of the following, for example?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If in Daniel 12 day 1335 is the last day and that it is meaning the same last day meant in John 6:40, and that Daniel 12:2 involves rising from the dead and being rewarded with everlasting life at that time, and so does John 6:40 involve these things, it doesn't make sense to see John 6:40 as irrelevant in this case.

As to Christ, when was He rewarded with everlasting life? Before He died? Or after He died then rose? You would think the same is true for everyone else. Right now everlasting life is a promise not a literal fact yet.

It does not become a literal fact until the changes per 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 occur to both the saved dead and the saved still alive at the time. Keeping in mind that 1 Thessalonians 4 records that at Christ's coming, there will be those that sleep in Jesus that shall awake, and that there will be some still alive and remaining, and that 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 applies to both groups.

And because the salvation provided by Christ's death and resurrection cover ppl past, present, and future of those events, we know those sleeping in Christ will include OT saints such as Job and Daniel, etc. And that they awake when the dead in Christ rise first.

I agree with Barnes, who is one of several commentators that take the expression "till the heavens be no more" to mean NEVER. As Barnes nicely puts it, this verse is a declaration of the belief that when man dies, he never lives on the present earth again, to which I whole heartedly agree. But I know Premil does not agree.

Barnes notes on the Bible
"Till the heavens be no more - That is, never; for such is the fair interpretation of the passage, and this accords with its design. Job means to say, undoubtedly, that man would never appear again in the land of the living; that he would not spring up from the grave, as a sprout does from a fallen tree; and that when he dies, he goes away from the earth never to return. Whether he believed in a future state, or in the future resurrection, is another question, and one that cannot be determined from this passage. His complaint is, that the present life is short, and that man when he has once passed through it cannot return to enjoy it again, if it has been unhappy; and he asks, therefore, why, since it was so short, man might not be permitted to enjoy it without molestation. It does not follow from this passage that he believed that the heavens ever would be no more, or would pass away.

The heavens are the most permanent and enduring objects of which we have any knowledge, and are, therefore, used to denote permanency and eternity; see Psalm 89:36-37. This verse, therefore, is simply a solemn declaration of the belief of Job that when man dies, he dies to live no more on the earth. Of the truth of this, no one can doubt - and the truth is as important and affecting as it is undoubted."

 

[3 Resurrections]

The 144,000: Why didn't Jesus reveal Himself to them? Who were the 500 He did reveal Himself to? Why were they sealed in Rev 7 if they've already been resurrected? Why would they go to Jerusalem instead of stay their tribal lands? Why would they be a different kind of harvest from every other believer considering the Jewish believers throughout the gospels were always referred to as the harvest of "wheat"? Is there any scripture that says they were firstfruits along with Christ?

Jesus actually did reveal Himself to the 144,000. They stood together with the Lamb on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, according to Revelation 14:1. Literally. On Christ's resurrection day. Why go to Jerusalem instead of their tribal lands? Because the Isaiah 2:2-3 prophecy about the "last days" were that "out of ZION shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from JERUSALEM." You and I both recognize the timing for those "last days". This was most certainly applied to the evangelistic efforts of the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints who started from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and went out to the nations with the gospel from there. Just as the disciples were told to be Christ's witnesses first in Jerusalem, then in Judea, Samaria, and then the uttermost parts of the earth.

These 144,000 First-fruits saints were unusual in that they were to remain on earth in their glorified, resurrected bodies for a reserved amount of time and did not immediately ascend to heaven after their resurrection. That is the reason for the "seal" put upon them. Just as in Daniel where his prophecies were sealed up to be reserved for fulfillment at a later time, the seal put upon the 144,000 First-fruits saints reserved their eventual ascension to heaven for a later time. This is why these 144,000 had a "song" to sing that no one else could learn but themselves. Their experience of being the "remaining ones" (the "loipoi" of Revelation 20:5) would be a unique one, never to be duplicated again.

And yes, the OT does provide the symbolism for these 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints of the "First resurrection" raised on the same day as "Christ the First-fruits". The 144,000 shared the same title of "the First-fruits" with Christ because they shared the same "First resurrection" event with Him in AD 33.

Leviticus 23: 9-12 depicts these future 144,000 First-fruits as the sheaf handful of the First-fruits of the barley harvest at Passover which was waved before the Lord (not the wheat harvest yet, which came later at Pentecost). On the very same day this sheaf of First-fruits barley was waved by the priest, A SINGLE HE LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH was also offered unto the Lord. This represented the 144,000 First-fruits who were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected by Christ the First-fruits on that same day. These 144,000 First-fruits were "redeemed from the earth (tes ges)" because the redemption of their dead bodies out of the broken-open graves from around Jerusalem took place in the land of Israel.

Christ's bodily resurrection is an example of our "bodily resurrection"?
He saw no corruption. So, it's not like that, is it? The exact same body Jesus died in was raised and the tomb was empty. So, if I die at old age and stricken with disease, I'll be raised in that same body? If not, give the scripture that explains what happens.

Philippians 3:21 tells us that Christ Jesus "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body..." So, yes, our own body's resurrected form IS to be like that of Christ's. If you die of old age and stricken with disease, your vile body will be changed and fashioned to be like unto Christ's glorious resurrected body. The One who formed a perfect man in the Garden of Eden out of the dust of the ground can repeat the same performance when He resurrects the dead bodies of His children and renders them immortal - though they be reduced to dust and ashes scattered on the winds.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I agree with Barnes, who is one of several commentators that take the expression "till the heavens be no more" to mean NEVER. As Barnes nicely puts it, this verse is a declaration of the belief that when man dies, he never lives on the present earth again, to which I whole heartedly agree. But I know Premil does not agree.

I am not Premil, but I do not agree with Barnes' proposal. God did not create this planet in vain; "He formed it to be inhabited" (Isaiah 45:18). God's intention for this world to be inhabited by humanity does not end in the final judgment, either.

Barnes apparently skips over Job's statement in Job 14:13-15 that God will remember "the work of Thine hands", which is what our physical bodies are. God was going to call to Job after his "appointed time" of waiting in the grave until his "change came". Job would answer that call from God by rising from his grave in that changed form when he was "made again".

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Philippians 3:21 tells us that Christ Jesus "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body.

Then show me the post ascension glorious body describing Him He was eternally answer to His prayer to receive the glory He had before the foundation of the world.

Jesus actually did reveal Himself to the 144,000. They stood together with the Lamb on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, according to Revelation 14:1.

So you don't find it a bit problematic that Paul, when he describes who Jesus appeared to, completely forgets the 144,000 freshly resurrected saints? 1 Corinthians 15:4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

they were to remain on earth in their glorified, resurrected bodies

Paul said not to go beyond what is written.

reserved their eventual ascension to heaven for a later time.

Made up.

raised on the same day as "Christ the First-fruits

The following is all placed at Jesus's death and not at His resurrection. I don't know how one can read this to mean on the day of His resurrection. What did the centurion and the women see?
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.”

55And many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to minister to Him. 56Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

 

[claninja]

I am not Premil, but I do not agree with Barnes' proposal. God did not create this planet in vain; "He formed it to be inhabited" (Isaiah 45:18). God's intention for this world to be inhabited by humanity does not end in the final judgment, either.

Barnes apparently skips over Job's statement in Job 14:13-15 that God will remember "the work of Thine hands", which is what our physical bodies are. God was going to call to Job after his "appointed time" of waiting in the grave until his "change came". Job would answer that call from God by rising from his grave in that changed form when he was "made again".

I have no idea how your response relates to what Barnes said.

vs 7-12 contrasts a dead tree stump which can again bring forth a branch against man who cannot awake again til the heavens are no more.

Then in vs 13 he wishes to be concealed in Sheol in order to escape Gods wrath. In otherwords, “wake me up when it’s all over”. But then in vs 14 he goes back to the idea of vs 7-12, with the “can man live again?”. He knows cannot just be placed in Sheol until this all blows over. So he will wait through all the hard service until his renewal or relief comes. BUT This ultimately ends in a very pessimistic, depressing and negative response to knowing he can’t just hide in Sheol til this is all over, starting in vs 18: “as a mount erodes and crumbles……so you destroy man’s hope”. Job is dealing with hopeless in his current trial.

I don’t think this passage is about the general resurrection of the dead. It seems more about Job’s hope of God putting him the grave so he can wake up later after Gods wrath is done, but ultimately recognizing, to his dismay, that he must live through it.

“Job 14:19-30so You destroy a man’s hope. 20You forever overpower him, and he passes on;”

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then show me the post ascension glorious body describing Him

Christ's post ascension body was shown to the disciples in John 20:19-20 that evening. It was also shown to the women holding Him by the feet in Matthew 28:9. It was also shown to the two disciples Jesus walked with on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24. This was Christ's glorified resurrection body which would never die again. As 1 Peter 1:21 said, God "raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory" - simultaneously.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So you don't find it a bit problematic that Paul, when he describes who Jesus appeared to, completely forgets the 144,000 freshly resurrected saints? 1 Corinthians 15:4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.

Do you see what I underlined in the verses above? When Paul mentions "ALL the apostles", he is referring to those 144,000 resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits. Do you remember the Ephesians 4: 8-12 text which describes the ascended Christ giving "gifts" of APOSTLES (meaning "sent ones") to the early church? The mention of these "apostles" was not referring to the 12 chosen disciples who were turned into the "chiefest apostles". These other "apostles" of Ephesians 4:11 were from the "multitude of captives" which the ascending Christ brought out of the grave and gave to the early church to work as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers among the early church. So Paul did not "completely forget" to mention the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints in the list of those who saw the glorified resurrected Christ.

Paul said not to go beyond what is written.

Made up.

What I wrote does not do that. For the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints to remain on earth in their glorified resurrected bodies does not "go beyond what is written". Scripture tells us exactly when resurrected individuals were allowed to enter heaven's temple, and it was only going to be when the 7 plagues were finished, according to Revelation 15:8. That means these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected 144,000 First-fruits (and any like them, such as Lazarus) were not allowed to ascend to heaven's temple until those 7 plagues were done. That means none of these resurrected individuals ascended to heaven with Christ in Acts 1. Ergo, their reserved, sealed condition indicating the delay of their ascension to heaven means that they remained on earth in those glorified resurrected bodies - until the 7 plagues would be finished.

The following is all placed at Jesus's death and not at His resurrection. I don't know how one can read this to mean on the day of His resurrection. What did the centurion and the women see?
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.”

That was only the breaking open of the saints graves which took place at Christ's crucifixion. It was only AFTER Christ's resurrection when those saints were bodily raised and then came out of those already-broken graves. This Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection event is also described in Revelation 14:14-16 (the very same chapter which had just described the 144,000 First-fruits). One like the Son of Man sitting on a cloud in heaven with a golden crown (the crown of His high priesthood given to Him at His first ascension that resurrection day) had a sharp sickle in hand and was told to "reap the earth" of its dried harvest. This particular "harvest" which the crowned Son of Man reaped from the earth was the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints - the "multitude of captives" - which the ascended Christ brought out of the grave that day of His own resurrection. Revelation 20:5 refers to this same "remnant of the dead which came to life again" as the "First resurrection" (in AD 33.)

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don’t think this passage is about the general resurrection of the dead.

You're right - I don't think there is any such thing as a "general" resurrection of ALL the dead all at one time. I believe scripture presents the believers being resurrected bodily in three different stages. Why else would we have John referring to the "FIRST" resurrection in Revelation 20:5, if there was not going to be a second resurrection event to follow that one? Paul stated the same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, when he mentioned two of these resurrection events: Christ's "First-fruits" resurrection (including the 144,000 First-fruits), and a resurrection event to follow that one. Job was going to participate in at least one of these bodily resurrection events after waiting in the grave for a certain appointed amount of time.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Christ's post ascension body was shown to the disciples in John 20:19-20 that evening. It was also shown to the women holding Him by the feet in Matthew 28:9. It was also shown to the two disciples Jesus walked with on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24. This was Christ's glorified resurrection body which would never die again. As 1 Peter 1:21 said, God "raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory" - simultaneously.

Then explain the following and why they couldn't see His glory until they would themselves go to be where He is.
John 17:
24Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Post ascension descriptions of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

Acts 7:
48However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49‘Heaven is My throne
and the earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord,
or where will My place of repose be?
50Has not My hand made all these things?’

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

And of course, you know the story of Jesus appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then explain the following and why they couldn't see His glory until they would themselves go to be where He is.
John 17:
24Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

That verse does not say that this heavenly encounter would be the FIRST time that the disciples could see His glory after Christ's resurrection. In fact, John 1:14 testified that the disciples had already seen this while on earth. "...and WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father..." As of that time when John 1:14 was written, Christ was still the "ONLY begotten of the Father" because there were no other bodily-resurrected individuals who had yet ascended to heaven's temple (which would not be available to them until the 7 plagues were finished - Revelation 15:8). That is what the word "begotten" means in this context. "This day have I BEGOTTEN THEE" referred to the resurrection-day ascension of Christ when He appeared before the Father in heaven.

John 1:14 testified that the believers had SEEN Christ's glory in His "begotten" state - which means after Christ had ascended to the Father on His resurrection day. He returned to earth that morning in that "only begotten" state and remained on earth for the disciples to see His glory during those 40 days until His final ascension in Acts 1.

1 Corinthians 15: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

I have heard this verse misused before as attempting to prove that the ascended Christ today exists only in spirit form. This is how that can be proven wrong. Even while the incarnate Christ was on earth during His earthly ministry, He was acting as this life-giving source that 1 Corinthians 15:44 spoke about.

"The words that I speak unto you - they are spirit and they are life", Christ said in John 6:63. This was an ongoing process, which Christ said He was presently performing even then during the years of His earthly ministry.

"And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish..." (John 10:28). These sheep being endowed with eternal life was not a delayed event. Christ was giving them eternal life of the spirit then and there. And though these believing "sheep" would have their physical bodies appointed to die once, those physical bodies would not ultimately perish, because Christ would bodily resurrect them into an immortal condition at His coming.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Your selected translation of this verse is leading you to the wrong conclusion. It is the "unapproachable light" Jesus dwells with, which is God the Father who is not seen by mortal man - not Jesus who still retains today the title "Son of Man" as well as "Son of God".

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Christ's post ascension body was shown to the disciples in John 20:19-20 that evening. It was also shown to the women holding Him by the feet in Matthew 28:9. It was also shown to the two disciples Jesus walked with on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24. This was Christ's glorified resurrection body which would never die again. As 1 Peter 1:21 said, God "raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory" - simultaneously.

That is obviously His post resurrection body, not His post ascension body. Where does it say His body of flesh is eternally glorified?

John 17:1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

I have heard this verse misused before as attempting to prove that the ascended Christ today exists only in spirit form. This is how that can be proven wrong. Even while the incarnate Christ was on earth during His earthly ministry, He was acting as this life-giving source that 1 Corinthians 15:44 spoke about.

It is only post ascension that He is called a "life-giving" spirit and that's why you referred to Him pre-ascension as a "life-giving source".

2 Corinthians 2:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Your selected translation of this verse is leading you to the wrong conclusion. It is the "unapproachable light" Jesus dwells with, which is God the Father who is not seen by mortal man - not Jesus who still retains today the title "Son of Man" as well as "Son of God".

All the translations I can find say "in unapproachable", not "with" as if the Son of God is no longer part of the Godhead but is now a separate being.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That is obviously His post resurrection body, not His post ascension body

No, that was Christ's post-ASCENSION body displayed to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, to the women who held Him by the feet, to the disciples that evening in John 20:19-23, etc. That is because Christ told Mary that morning before dawn broke that He was ascending to His Father at that point (John 20:17). It was that first, resurrection-day ascension when Christ was "brought near before the Ancient of Days" to be given "dominion, and GLORY, and a kingdom" (Daniel 7:13-14) over which He was anointed by God as a Great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Where does it say His body of flesh is eternally glorified?

5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

That verse was fulfilled in the vision Daniel saw in Daniel 7:13-14 concerning the resurrection-day ascension of Christ. Christ told the disciples in Matthew 28:18 that "all power has been given unto me in heaven and in earth" - and that power of dominion, glory, and a kingdom had already been given to Him BEFORE His Acts 1 ascension back to heaven.

The whole doctrine of Christ being anointed after the superior order of the deathless Melchizedek in Hebrews 7 confirms that Christ' glorified body of flesh and bones remained eternally glorified. You would have no high priest advocate on high if that were not so. Your prayers would get no higher than the ceiling if it were not so.

Sinful mankind must have a "daysman" as Job described it - someone between us and God who is of our own human kind to be our representative. Like must represent like. Christ did not take on the flesh of angels as their representative. He took on our flesh for the purpose of totally identifying with our kind.

Humanity is more than just a spirit being - we are body, soul, and spirit. Our representative before God in heaven must be of the same body, soul, and spirit combination to be our advocate on high. The very reason why the OC priesthood was dissolved as being "weak and beggarly" was because those high priests were not suffered to continue by reason of physical death. But Christ has come to be a perpetual, deathless high priest after the superior order of the deathless Melchizedek. He never discarded His glorified, resurrected body form at His final ascension, but still retains it today so that He can "APPEAR in the presence of God for us" (Heb. 9:24) as our merciful and faithful high priest. He "ever liveth" and "continueth ever" to make intercession for us in that same resurrected body form.

Hebrews 7:28 tells us that the Son as our high priest is "PERFECTED FOR EVERMORE". Christ "being made perfect" after His suffering (Heb. 5:9) was His being bodily resurrected from the grave in a glorified condition - never to die again. If Christ had discarded His glorified, resurrected body form at His Acts 1 ascension, that would have constituted another physical death of His body, which is an impossibility according to Romans 6:9. "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him."

All the translations I can find say "in unapproachable", not "with" as if the Son of God is no longer part of the Godhead but is now a separate being.

The John 17:5 verse you already gave above about Christ being given glory like the glory He had WITH the Father before the world existed kind of dissolves the point you are trying to make here. Christ dwelling "IN unapproachable light" is the very same as Christ dwelling WITH the Father, who is the source of that unapproachable light. Daniel 2:22 also testified of God that "the light dwelleth WITH Him". No difference really.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

That verse was fulfilled in the vision Daniel saw in Daniel 7:13-14 concerning the resurrection-day ascension of Christ.

Only chapter 1 of Acts has Jesus being taken up in a cloud.

Jesus told Mary to tell the disciples He was ascending to the Father in order to remind them of what He told them after talking about eating and drinking His blood.
John 6
59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

2 Corinthians 5
16Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
Hebrews 5:
6As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.