Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.

[Douggg]

Wrong and wrong. David calls him Yeshua which means Savior/Salavation in Hebrew.

RT, I was informing you of what Jews (Judaism) believe regarding the messiah. I did not say that they were right.

To understand why the Antichrist will appear to them to be the messiah, a person has to know what Judaism believes regarding the messiah. That takes effort and research, and talking to Jews themselves. The countermissionary Jews are a good source of information.

You are forming your eschatology with partial information.

 

[Douggg]

The SEVEN HEADS are Seven Beast Kingdoms....Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome with MANY KINGS between them all. However each Kingdom has a KING THAT FALLS at the time that Kingdom lost power or Dominion.

RT, you are writing your own version of Revelation. It doesn't say Beast Kingdoms.

 

[Douggg]

There is NO Seven Sequential Kings.............PERIOD. The 8th King is as I have explained above.

What the bible says is...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The seven kings are clearly in a sequence. The five are fallen, followed by the one is, to be followed by the other is not come. None of the kings are the person in the role of being the Antichrist.

The person, as the little horn, is the 7th king of that group of the fourth kingdom
The person, as the beast, is the 8th king of that group of the fourth kingdom.

The ten kings in Daniel 7 are of the fourth kingdom.

The prince who shall come are from the people of the fourth kingdom.

The seven mountains where the woman sits is the part of the fourth kingdom.

 

[Douggg]

That's what the Bible speaks of, and it says VIA PEACE he destroys MANY.

But the bible doesn't say peace treaty. The word peace is not in Daniel 9:27. It is somebody's idea that became popularized over time.

 

[Douggg]

We can use CONCRETE instead of Anti-Christ I don't care, as long as we know who were are speaking of. You seem to be hing up on it and the King of Israel title. I never understood that, the Bible NOWHERE says that.

It is not just a matter of title, but a matter of concept.

If someone uses the term "the Antichrist" improperly, it shows that they don't know what they are speaking of. The person does not become the Antichrist and then the King of Israel. Becoming the King of Israel, illegitimate, is what makes him the Antichrist.

Then, as leader of Israel, he confirms that God gave the land to the children of Israel as theirs forever, by making a big speech to that effect from the temple mount, the place of God's choosing according to the Jews - as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The Jews are aware of that requirement.

The problem is that you have a scenario based on what has gone before you and has been popularized to the point to where it has been accepted as fact by many, and you are not aware of what Jews and Judaism believe, so you are working with incomplete information - and don't even know you are working from incomplete information.

Also the notion that the 7 kings are 7 kingdoms is another popularized idea, but wrong idea, that did not start with you. But you are building on it.

 

[Revealing Times]

RT, I was informing you of what Jews (Judaism) believe regarding the messiah. I did not say that they were right.

Which means after they have repented they will believe differently right? And saying that, I don't take much thought as to what people who hate God think, I am looking towards the day they ACCEPT CHRIST as their Messiah. The rest is not relevant, those that do not accept Jesus will not make it to Heaven.

To understand why the Antichrist will appear to them to be the messiah, a person has to know what Judaism believes regarding the messiah. That takes effort and research, and talking to Jews themselves. The countermissionary Jews are a good source of information.

No we don't, we have to look o the bible for the truths. God says Israel REPENTS...You refuse to answer why Israel FLEES? I will answer for you, because the HEED JESUS' WORDS TO FLEE !! This means they have already repented. When someone dodges questions there is a REASON, you have dodged that question at least 50 times, I WONDER WHY? Its about the TRUTH, not us brother.

You are forming your eschatology with partial information.

Or everything you disagree with must not be true for 1000 Alex !!

RT, you are writing your own version of Revelation. It doesn't say Beast Kingdoms.

It mentions the Lion, Bear and Leopard and THEY WERE NOT BEAST KINGDOMS? OK....Geeeze.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

I know what it says perfectly, and its speaking about the SEVEN HEADED BEAST !! Good grief Charlie Brown. This is showing us that there are indeed SPECIFIC KINGS in power when KINGDOMS FALL does that make sense? It does to me. God did this to reduce the KINGDOMS to KINGS so he could tell us the LAST KING or BEAST will never pass his Kingdom in to anyone else. And you din't get it, even though I have told you this 100 times so you probably will just overlook it again. You even think all three are different in chapters 12, 13 and 17.

But the bible doesn't say peace treaty. The word peace is not in Daniel 9:27. It is somebody's idea that became popularized over time.

That's cute brother, you repeat this over and over and then I point out Daniel 8:25 says BY PEACE HE WILL DESTROY MANY..........And that in Seal #2 he TAKES AWAY PEACE from the Earth. Thus his AGREEMENTS (Covenants) must be WAR PACTS in your way of thinking in Dan. 9:27. Of course its a PEACE AGREEMENT !! Lets make an agreement that we are going to throw rocks and shoot each other every other day.

Of course you think because it says COVENANT that has to mean HOLY so it throws you off there a whole lot brother.

It is not just a matter of title, but a matter of concept.

If someone uses the term "the Antichrist" improperly, it shows that they don't know what they are speaking of. The person does not become the Antichrist and then the King of Israel. Becoming the King of Israel, illegitimate, is what makes him the Antichrist.

Well you use it wrong everyday, you try to force it as the King of Israel, and it will never be that.

 

[Douggg]

Which means after they have repented they will believe differently right?

Repent does not mean the same thing as salvation.

No we don't, we have to look o the bible for the truths. God says Israel REPENTS...You refuse to answer why Israel FLEES? I will answer for you, because the HEED JESUS' WORDS TO FLEE !! This means they have already repented. When someone dodges questions there is a REASON, you have dodged that question at least 50 times, I WONDER WHY? Its about the TRUTH, not us brother.

Repent does not mean the same thing as salvation or receiving Jesus as Savior. Repentance means to turn from one's sinful ways. It does not mean receiving Jesus as savior. John the baptist preached repentance, before Salvation was available to anyone.

I did explain why Israel flees. Because the two witnesses prophesy to them of what their perceived messiah is going to do and that an image, idol, will be made of him and that they should flee into the mountains when that happens. I have never dodged that question and have stated why Israel flees into the wilderness without you having to ask it.

You have the two witnesses preaching to the Jews 45 days before the image is placed in the temple. I have the two witnesses preaching to the Jews 1185 days before the image is placed in the temple.

Or everything you disagree with must not be true for 1000 Alex !!

What is "1000 Alex" ?

It mentions the Lion, Bear and Leopard and THEY WERE NOT BEAST KINGDOMS? OK....Geeeze.

It does not say "beast Kingdoms". "beast Kingdoms" is your made up jargon. You make up your own jardon, and don't use bible terms but repackage the bible terms into your own terms - changing the meaning.

I know what it says perfectly, and its speaking about the SEVEN HEADED BEAST !! Good grief Charlie Brown. This is showing us that there are indeed SPECIFIC KINGS in power when KINGDOMS FALL does that make sense? It does to me.

It may show that to you, but you have introduced your own thinking into the verse. The first six kings were uninterrupted kings of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire.

God did this to reduce the KINGDOMS to KINGS so he could tell us the LAST KING or BEAST will never pass his Kingdom in to anyone else. And you din't get it, even though I have told you this 100 times so you probably will just overlook it again. You even think all three are different in chapters 12, 13 and 17.

You said the last King was the seventh king. The seventh king is not the beast, but the little horn. The beast is the 8th king.
The 8th king of the fourth kingdom.

What confuses people when you write is that you do so using your own jargon, and indirect terms, that others cannot be sure of what you mean. Instead of saying "last" king, why don't you say 7th king if that is what you mean?

That's cute brother, you repeat this over and over and then I point out Daniel 8:25 says BY PEACE HE WILL DESTROY MANY..........And that in Seal #2 he TAKES AWAY PEACE from the Earth. Thus his AGREEMENTS (Covenants) must be WAR PACTS in your way of thinking in Dan. 9:27. Of course its a PEACE AGREEMENT !! Lets make an agreement that we are going to throw rocks and shoot each other every other day.

Of course you think because it says COVENANT that has to mean HOLY so it throws you off there a whole lot brother.

It does not say peace anywhere in Daniel 9:27. The world will be saying peace and safety, and will have it's guard down because they think they are living in the messianic age. You cannot agree to that because it would mean that you would have to understand that "the Antichrist" is the person perceived to be the messiah to the Jews, anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate).

"Holy" means set apart for God. The Mt. Sinai covenant was a covenant between God and the children of Israel that He would be their God and they his people. The Antichrist is going to transgress that covenant because he magnifies himself in his heart - which is in both Daniel 8 and Ezekiel 28 about the person, and begins to think he has achieved God-hood.

Well you use it wrong everyday, you try to force it as the King of Israel, and it will never be that.

It throws your whole scenario out the window, doesn't it.

 

[Revealing Times]

Repent does not mean the same thing as salvation.

Well they do go hand in hand but that's not the POINT.....After Israel repents they will then see CLEARLY, the SCALES will be lifted off of their eyes so why is what they believe now, whilst they are yet blind, relevant to the discussion of when the scales will be LIFTED, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Church Raptured).

Repent does not mean the same thing as salvation or receiving Jesus as Savior. Repentance means to turn from one's sinful ways. It does not mean receiving Jesus as savior. John the baptist preached repentance, before Salvation was available to anyone.

I did explain why Israel flees. Because the two witnesses prophesy to them of what their perceived messiah is going to do and that an image, idol, will be made of him and that they should flee into the mountains when that happens. I have never dodged that question and have stated why Israel flees into the wilderness without you having to ask it.

You have the two witnesses preaching to the Jews 45 days before the image is placed in the temple. I have the two witnesses preaching to the Jews 1185 days before the image is placed in the temple.

The Two-Witnesses ae doing NO SUCH THING, they are preaching Jesus Christ Crucified, GET OUT Dougggg, that was lame brother, streatchingggggggggggg....Come on.

What is "1000 Alex" ?

Alex Trebek....Jeopardy question.....1000.00

It does not say "beast Kingdoms". "beast Kingdoms" is your made up jargon. You make up your own jardon, and don't use bible terms but repackage the bible terms into your own terms - changing the meaning.

That's exactly what it says............You over analyze brother.

It may show that to you, but you have introduced your own thinking into the verse. The first six kings were uninterrupted kings of the fourth empire, the Roman Empire.

SURE.........

You said the last King was the seventh king. The seventh king is not the beast, but the little horn. The beast is the 8th king.
The 8th king of the fourth kingdom.

What confuses people when you write is that you do so using your own jargon, and indirect terms, that others cannot be sure of what you mean. Instead of saying "last" king, why don't you say 7th king if that is what you mean?

Good grief brother, the 7th King is the Little Horn, the Anti-Christ, the LAST BEAST !!

The 8th King is a DEMON SPIRIT named Apollyon, and I expressly explained it unto you in vivid detail. It shouldn't be this hard to understand what I stated. But you dodged that part also.

It does not say peace anywhere in Daniel 9:27. The world will be saying peace and safety, and will have it's guard down because they think they are living in the messianic age. You cannot agree to that because it would mean that you would have to understand that "the Antichrist" is the person perceived to be the messiah to the Jews, anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate).

"Holy" means set apart for God. The Mt. Sinai covenant was a covenant between God and the children of Israel that He would be their God and they his people. The Antichrist is going to transgress that covenant because he magnifies himself in his heart - which is in both Daniel 8 and Ezekiel 28 about the person, and begins to think he has achieved God-hood.

You need to learn how to put scriptures together. It just doesn't fit your narrative. Everyone else sees it brother, what ca I say.

It throws your whole scenario out the window, doesn't it.

No, your whole time-line is discombobulated brother. Remember who the PREACHER IS HERE.

 

[Douggg]

The Two-Witnesses ae doing NO SUCH THING, they are preaching Jesus Christ Crucified, GET OUT Dougggg, that was lame brother, streatchingggggggggggg....Come on.

Here is what it says in the bible...

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Douggg]

That's exactly what it says............You over analyze brother.

I noticed in your profile, you live in Alabama. Were you born and raised in Alabama? I have a reason for asking.

 

[Douggg]

You need to learn how to put scriptures together. It just doesn't fit your narrative. Everyone else sees it brother, what ca I say.

Everyone else for the most part, in Christianity, who are interested in eschatology are not aware of the confirmation of the covenant for seven years being anything other than a peace treaty, because they have been brow beaten by preachers and commentators for 50 years - who themselves are not aware of Deuteronomy 31:9-13. And have a skewed concept of what it means to be the Antichrist.

I am not disagreeing with you what the popular view is.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

To all posters in this thread

Spend some time looking at a different perspective than the ones you have been taught

It was mentioned in the OP

my thinking is the king of the south here is all of North Africa along with maybe Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Qatar Yemen

What do these countries all have in Common... ISLAM.

so I went to studying and matching each verse with history as best I could

The following web site is a 10 hour series(one hour segments) on Daniel 11 and first verses of 12 using Historical hermeneutics.

Give it a look if you are truly seeking.

Are you positive any of your understanding is correct would you bet your eternal salvation on it?

Islam & Christianity


May God Bless you in your search.

 

[Revealing Times]

Here is what it says in the bible...

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Malachi 4:5-6 says the TURN ISRAEL back unto God. They prophesy later the PLAGUES to come.

I noticed in your profile, you live in Alabama. Were you born and raised in Alabama? I have a reason for asking.

Tuscaloosa.........Roll Tide.

Everyone else for the most part, in Christianity, who are interested in eschatology are not aware of the confirmation of the covenant for seven years being anything other than a peace treaty, because they have been brow beaten by preachers and commentators for 50 years - who themselves are not aware of Deuteronomy 31:9-13. And have a skewed concept of what it means to be the Antichrist.

I am not disagreeing with you what the popular view is.

But I show you why its seen as that, then you just poo poo the scriptures.

Daniel 8:25 says that by PEACE he destroys MANY.....And Rev. ch. 6 says PEACE is taken from the earth, the Red Horse takes peace from men on earth. Then We look back at Daniel 9:27 and it says he enters into AGREEMENTS with Israel and MANY, and then breaks those agreements.

 

[Douggg]

Tuscaloosa.........Roll Tide.

The reason I asked is because I have relatives in Mississippi, northeastern quadrant, and their communication tendency are similar to yours. It drives me crazy, because I try to be precise, and precise is something that is not part of their vocabulary.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 8:25 says that by PEACE he destroys MANY.....And Rev. ch. 6 says PEACE is taken from the earth, the Red Horse takes peace from men on earth. Then We look back at Daniel 9:27 and it says he enters into AGREEMENTS with Israel and MANY, and then breaks those agreements.

If the Jews think they have entered the messianic and beat their swords into plowshares - where is that going to leave them?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Malachi 4:5-6 says the TURN ISRAEL back unto God. They prophesy later the PLAGUES to come.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

no mention of literal Israel in the verses you quoted so where did you get that indication?

Or are you talking about spiritual Israel as they are the ones that will in verse 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts (after the wicked are consumed with fire at the second resurrection)

 

[Revealing Times]

The reason I asked is because I have relatives in Mississippi, northeastern quadrant, and their communication tendency are similar to yours. It drives me crazy, because I try to be precise, and precise is something that is not part of their vocabulary.

They might say the same thing about you. He, he. Southerners are not dumb, we don't vote for progressives that's all the proof that's needed. I make points everyone else understand Douggg, you seemingly have a mules resistance to my ideas.

I post..........you pull harder and harder and go, Nayyyyy............or is it NEIGH !!

If the Jews think they have entered the messianic and beat their swords into plowshares - where is that going to leave them?

During the 1000 year reign, In Jesus' presence.

 

[Douggg]

During the 1000 year reign, In Jesus' presence.

I was referring to the little horn destroys many peace. Which you are locked in that must mean the confirming of the covenant for seven years must have to do with a peace treaty of sorts.

But I am pointing out to you that if the Jews think they have entered the messianic age they may be begin beating their swords into plowshares - i.e. disarming themselves.

 

[Revealing Times]

I was referring to the little horn destroys many peace. Which you are locked in that must mean the confirming of the covenant for seven years must have to do with a peace treaty of sorts.

But I am pointing out to you that if the Jews think they have entered the messianic age they may be begin beating their swords into plowshares - i.e. disarming themselves.

Accepting Christ as Lord didn't make Paul, Peter and the early Church beat their swords into plowshares did it? So why would Israel accepting Christ before the Second Coming have anything to do with the 1000 year reign/Messianic Age?

They ACCEPT Christ Before the Day of the Lord and then they must flee to be protected by God in the Wilderness, just like the were protected when they came out of Egypt. When Jesus returns, then we will be in the 1000 year reign, not until.

Let me BUNCH some scriptures again for you. Lets look at the Anti-Christ/BEAST.

Dan. 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant(agreements with NATIONS) with "many" for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries(MANY), and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land (Israel), and many countries(MANY) shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (all just East of Israel, Petra/Jordan). 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

So when Dan. 9:27 mentions that this Anti-Christ or Little Horn enters into AGREEMENTS (Covenant) WITH MANY, we must understand, this man is a Beast over Israel, but like all the Beasts who came before him, he is a Mediterranean Sea Region Beast, and he will see to control the whole region for strategic purposes of course.

So where verse 8:25 says he destroys the holy people and "MANY BY PEACE" this means Israel and the countries in the surrounding areas of the sea region are all conquered by this tyrant, and he gains his initial advantage by PEACE with the MANY per Dan. 9:27, the AGREEMENTS WITH MANY.

The scriptures in Daniel are very clear. He gains a military advantage by being shrewd and tricking those in the region, then he reneges on his word and takes advantage of his deceits. This is why Rev. chapter 6 states that he takes PEACE FROM THE EARTH, because he feigned peace to come to power, and to gain a tactical advantage.

 

[Revealing Times]

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

no mention of literal Israel in the verses you quoted so where did you get that indication?

Or are you talking about spiritual Israel as they are the ones that will in verse 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts (after the wicked are consumed with fire at the second resurrection)

Now who do you think a Jewish prophet would be prophesying about?