Dan 11:20 a raiser of taxes

[Tractor1]

Dan 11:20¶Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

The above was predictive of Seleucus IV Philopator. In between Antiochus the Great and Antiochus Epiphanes taxes were raised oppresively in order to pay a forced tribute to the Romans; including a special tax on the Jews by a collector named Heliodorus (2 Mac 3:7). Soon after the temple was plundered Seleucus was most likely poisoned by the same Heliodorus.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Dan 11:21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

The above was predictive of Antiochus Epiphanes who was on the throne of Syria from 175-164 B.C. Though his reign was short, he was known for for his bitter persecution of the Jewish people and the desecration of the temple.

In Christ,
Tracey
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[gwynedd1]

That is why I love coming to this board.

Btw, here is where "covnenant" is used in Dan 9 and 11.
It appears only Dan 11:30 has the article "the" before it. I highly recommend a good interlinear, concordances and translation if you want to tackle Daniel, as this prominent theologian adviese:

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

This is precisely why interpreting "thy people" and "your people" and nation" for the endtimes of all peoples is so destructive. It was the endtime of Israel. Non-believers as we can see find it easy to pick apart Daniel otherwise with silly floating weeks that are not accounted in scripture.

......As I have noticed while comparing translations of different verses in the Bible, even the most literal translations can suddenly depart from literalism, perhaps visit the Greek Septuagint and abandon the Hebrew translation for a single verse, whenever some highly cherished doctrine might be threatened by a truly literal translation. Rule of thumb : you should never, ever rely exclusively on one single translation.)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Daniel 9:27 and he shall cause to strenghthen [a] covenant, to many, one 7, and half/midst of the 7 he shall cause to cease [a] sacrifice and [a] present, and on [a] wing, abominations one making desolate and unto a finish and being decided she shall be poured forth on desolation [desolator?]

Daniel 11:22 and armed forces of the overwhelmer/flood, they shall be overwhelmed/overflowed before his face, and they shall be broken and morevoer a prince of a covenant.

Daniel 11:28 So then he will return to his own land, with great substance, with, his heart, set upon/against a covenant, holy one; yea he will act with effect, and return to his own land.

Daniel 11:30 For ships of Kittim shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and shall return, and have indignation on a covenant, holy one, and shall do [his pleasure]: he shall even return, and have regard unto them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11:32 And those acting wickedly [against] a covenant, he defileth by flatteries; and the people knowing their God are strong, and have wrought.

Again the greek centric Kittim or Cyprus is mentioned. This is the context of the 4 Greek kingdoms. Daniel 11 is done. So is Daniel 12. All one has to do is read it without the newly added commentary and obession with our own time as if it were the only time. "Thy people" , nation and holy people actually means something very important. Where are the other nations? If you read Daniel as Israel's time then Daniel is either a true prophesy or an after the fact precise history.

 

[brother daniel]

Beloved,
This thread is based on Daniel 11 because it is part of eschatology, meaning study of the last days.

I opened with referance to Barack Obama, a likely candadate for the next president of the united States and raiser of taxes. who comes from a liberal humanistic, Islamic, Protistant and Roman Catholic background.

I suggested that if George W. Bush is in fact the KING of the North in Daniel 11, then Obama if elected will be the "tax raising king of the north".

Should that be the case then the person following Obamas short time in office will be the "Man of Sin and final King of the North who introduces the Mark of the Beast.

Its a scenario that I view has a high probability of happening as Obama is a lawyer with a strong supporter of the UN.

The peace agenda of the UN has an appealing sound but it is a godless.

It offers the same religious pluralism that brought down the Kingdom of Israel under Solomon.

Obama Obama studied for two years at Occidental College, before transferring to Columbia College at Columbia University. There he majored in political science, with a specialization in international relations. Upon graduation, he worked for a year at Business International Corporation (now part of The Economist Group), a company that provided international business information to corporate clients.

The Business International Corporation (BI) was a publishing and advisory firm dedicated to assisting American companies in operations abroad. In 1986, Business International was acquired by The Economist Group in London, and eventually merged with The Economist Intelligence Unit.

Founded in 1953 by Eldridge Haynes, BI initially focused on American companies and started out with a weekly newsletter and a group of key corporate clients. BI eventually became the premier information source on global business with research, advisory functions, and conferences and roundtables in addition to its publications. It was headquartered in New York City, with major offices in Geneva, London, Vienna, Hong Kong and Tokyo, and correspondents worldwide.

I point to Obama's education because it shows how he has been groomed for a role in the NEW WORLD ORDER

Columbia University where Obama studied has a long history of promoting Secular Humanism

The Ethical Culture movement
The movement was initiated in 1876 by Felix Adler in New York City with the founding of the New York Society for Ethical Culture

Felix Adler graduated from Columbia University in 1870 and moved to Germany where he received a doctorate from Heidelberg University. Starting in 1874 he spent two years at Cornell University as Professor of Oriental Languages and Hebrew before his "dangerous attitude" caused him to leave.
In 1902 Adler was given the chair of political and social ethics at Columbia University, which he held until his death in 1933.

Since around 1950 the Ethical Culture movement has been increasingly identified as part of the modern Humanist movement. Specifically, in 1952, the American Ethical Union, the national umbrella organization for Ethical Culture societies in the United States, became one of the founding member organizations of the International Humanist and Ethical Union.

After Columbia Obama moved to Chicago, where he took up community organizing in the Altgeld Gardens housing project on the city's South Side.

He left Chicago for three years to study law at Harvard University, where he was elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He graduated magna cum laude. While working at a corporate law firm in the summer of 1989, Obama met Michelle Robinson, then an associate attorney at the firm; they married in 1992.

This man has been groomed for the top.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Beloved,
I repeat Daniel 11:20-31 can not be about Antiochus, because Jesus spoke after that time and refered to it in the context of a future event.

Perhaps you dont think God can today warn us about about the future using the scriptures?

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All you guys are wrong. the mark is a genetic disease which turns you into an alien.

Is this a joke? If not, would you care to explain?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

That is why I love coming to this board.

Btw, here is where "covnenant" is used in Dan 9 and 11.
It appears only Dan 11:30 has the article "the" before it. I highly recommend a good interlinear, concordances and translation if you want to tackle Daniel, as this prominent theologian adviese:

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

......As I have noticed while comparing translations of different verses in the Bible, even the most literal translations can suddenly depart from literalism, perhaps visit the Greek Septuagint and abandon the Hebrew translation for a single verse, whenever some highly cherished doctrine might be threatened by a truly literal translation. Rule of thumb : you should never, ever rely exclusively on one single translation.)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Daniel 9:27 and he shall cause to strenghthen [a] covenant, to many, one 7, and half/midst of the 7 he shall cause to cease [a] sacrifice and [a] present, and on [a] wing, abominations one making desolate and unto a finish and being decided she shall be poured forth on desolation [desolator?]

Daniel 11:22 and armed forces of the overwhelmer/flood, they shall be overwhelmed/overflowed before his face, and they shall be broken and morevoer a prince of a covenant.

Daniel 11:28 So then he will return to his own land, with great substance, with, his heart, set upon/against a covenant, holy one; yea he will act with effect, and return to his own land.

Daniel 11:30 For ships of Kittim shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and shall return, and have indignation on a covenant, holy one, and shall do [his pleasure]: he shall even return, and have regard unto them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11:32 And those acting wickedly [against] a covenant, he defileth by flatteries; and the people knowing their God are strong, and have wrought.

This is precisely why interpreting "thy people" and "your people" and nation" for the endtimes of all peoples is so destructive. It was the endtime of Israel. Non-believers as we can see find it easy to pick apart Daniel otherwise with silly floating weeks that are not accounted in scripture.

Again the greek centric Kittim or Cyprus is mentioned. This is the context of the 4 Greek kingdoms. Daniel 11 is done. So is Daniel 12. All one has to do is read it without the newly added commentary and obession with our own time as if it were the only time. "Thy people" , nation and holy people actually means something very important. Where are the other nations?

If you read Daniel as Israel's time then Daniel is either a true prophesy or an after the fact precise history.

If Daniel 11/12 are fulfilled, then the Bible would be fulfilled!! Is that what you are saying.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written [OT/OC] may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

Revelation 16:17 And, the seventh, poured out his bowl upon the air.--And there came forth a loud voice out of the sanctuary, from the throne, saying--It is done/come to pass [#1096]!
Reve 21:6 And He said to me,"It is done/come to pass! [#1096] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

 

[Tractor1]

Beloved,
I repeat Daniel 11:20-31 can not be about Antiochus,

Repeat it all you'd like, but you're incorrect. The first thirty five verses of (Dan. 11) describe the major rulers of the Persian Empire and gives a detailed record of events following Alexander, ending with Antiochus Epiphanes. Interestingly enough, the philosopher Porphyry (third century A.D.) tried to attack the book as a forgery because of its detailed prophecy, saying that it corresponded to closely to history.

Regarding your last comment, I have every confidence God has warned about the future through His Word. I just don't agree with your intepretation that the quoted portion of the book of Daniel is describing events today.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[gwynedd1]

If Daniel 11/12 are fulfilled, then the Bible would be fulfilled!! Is that what you are saying.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written [OT/OC] may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

This is supposed to mean what exactly? How does this prove that Daniel 12 is not fulfilled?

21: Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it;
22: for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.

1st comment. Is Luke Daniel? no.
2nd comment. The final fulfilment is days of vengeance? Must we take things out of context and without context? It means all that is written concerning "Jacobs trouble". It is an emphasis that these things must happen as God has fortold.

Also why is it that in one case they should "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains," while in another case they that survive are not cut off from the city?

Zechariah 14
2: For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

How can Jerusalem be left desolate AND have God fight for Jerusalem if this is the same event?


In Daniel 12 I can find no reference to the world or to the nations. How can one explain this as the end of all things?

7: The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished.

So the end will not be the new Jerusalem and being with the Lord, no God's plan is to SHATTER US!...????

Now if we view this correctly we see that Israel was no longer the only messenger of God after the "end". It was a specific relationship to introduce and maintain the law until the root of Jesse could fulfill it. The earth has been cleansed for those washed in the blood of the lamb.

 

[gwynedd1]

Beloved,
I repeat Daniel 11:20-31 can not be about Antiochus, because Jesus spoke after that time and refered to it in the context of a future event.

Perhaps you dont think God can today warn us about about the future using the scriptures?

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Again I contend that the temple was defiled twice. We know it was infact. Both these events where prophesied. One was before Christ, one was after. The one that Christ refered to was from the Romans. Since it impossible to defile a heavenly temple then ther cannot be a third temple that could be holy.

 

[brother daniel]

This is supposed to mean what exactly? How does this prove that Daniel 12 is not fulfilled?


1st comment. Is Luke Daniel? no.
2nd comment. The final fulfilment is days of vengeance? Must we take things out of context and without context? It means all that is written concerning "Jacobs trouble". It is an emphasis that these things must happen as God has fortold.

Also why is it that in one case they should "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains," while in another case they that survive are not cut off from the city?

How can Jerusalem be left desolate AND have God fight for Jerusalem if this is the same event?


In Daniel 12 I can find no reference to the world or to the nations. How can one explain this as the end of all things?

So the end will not be the new Jerusalem and being with the Lord, no God's plan is to SHATTER US!...????

Now if we view this correctly we see that Israel was no longer the only messenger of God after the "end". It was a specific relationship to introduce and maintain the law until the root of Jesse could fulfill it. The earth has been cleansed for those washed in the blood of the lamb.

Beloved
we all have much to learn,
This is the time of the end or last days. For a true study of eschatology we must consider the prophecies of Jesus Christ with scriptural instruction.

We who have the testimony of Jesus have been given the spirit of prophesy.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 gave us a prophecy concerning the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of by Daniel the prophet. found in Daniel 11:20

He give us that prophesy to for these last days so we would know what signs to look for concerning his coming again
.
Dan 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;



1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.


1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:




1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Let us seek to prophesy and understand what God is telling us about what is shortly to come to pass.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1
This is supposed to mean what exactly? How does this prove that Daniel 12 is not fulfilled?
1st comment. Is Luke Daniel? no.
2nd comment. The final fulfilment is days of vengeance? Must we take things out of context and without context? It means all that is written concerning "Jacobs trouble". It is an emphasis that these things must happen as God has fortold.
Also why is it that in one case they should "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains," while in another case they that survive are not cut off from the city?

How can Jerusalem be left desolate AND have God fight for Jerusalem if this is the same event?
In Daniel 12 I can find no reference to the world or to the nations. How can one explain this as the end of all things? How can Jerusalem be left desolate AND have God fight for Jerusalem if this is the same event?

Perhaps because there are "2 Jerusalems" in the Bible? Which one do you belong to?

Gala 4: 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is the mother of us all, .....30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10]

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[gwynedd1]

Beloved
we all have much to learn,
This is the time of the end or last days. For a true study of eschatology we must consider the prophecies of Jesus Christ with scriptural instruction.

We who have the testimony of Jesus have been given the spirit of prophesy.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 gave us a prophecy concerning the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of by Daniel the prophet. found in Daniel 11:20

He give us that prophesy to for these last days so we would know what signs to look for concerning his coming again
.
Dan 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Dan 12:9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:13

But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;



1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.


1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:




1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Let us seek to prophesy and understand what God is telling us about what is shortly to come to pass.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Matthew 24
1: Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2: But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."
3: As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

This must refer to 70 AD. Correct? Therefore we know that element of Mathew 24 MUST be in regard to the 70 AD event.

15: "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16: then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
17: let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in

Who would see this? Why Judea?

This is Josephus describing the abonination of desolation

1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator (25) with the greatest acclamations of joy.

Matthew 24
21: For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Josephus
1. (1) WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affairs themselves have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by hearsay, and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those that were there present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humor of flattery to the Romans, or of hatred towards the Jews;

There were revolts in Gaul, Germany and Britain(Buodica is well famous and Britain was nearly lost) as well as recent trouble with Parthia Rome had 4 potentials to the throne of Rome at this time in addition to the revolt in Judea that was at Passover, meaning all the Jews were there. There were false prophets to keep the Jews fighting and destroying themselves. This was after Christ.

Matthew is less clear than Luke. verse 24 is the key verse and the turning point of the transition. We know it is a good span of time just to lead Israel captive of many nations.The events of 25 happen after this lengthy process.

20: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
21: Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it;
22: for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.
23: Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people;
24: they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


25: "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26: men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27: And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28: Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
29: And he told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees;

Verse 25 and on points to us. That is our end time.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

25: "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26: men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27: And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28: Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
29: And he told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees; Verse 25 and on points to us.

Matthew is less clear than Luke. verse 24 is the key verse and the turning point of the transition. We know it is a good span of time just to lead Israel captive of many nations.The events of 25 happen after this lengthy process.

Verse 25 and on points to us. That is our end time.

Sorry. That contradicts Luke and Peter again.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

Revelation 11:17 saying, `We give thanks to Thee, O Lord/ kurie <2962> God/qeoV <2316>, the Almighty/Shadday; , who art, and who wast, and who art coming, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and didst reign;

 

[gwynedd1]

Sorry. That contradicts Luke and Peter again.

Luke 21:22 "For these are the Days of Vengeance, that ALL Things which are Written may be Fulfilled.

1 Peter 4:7 But the End of ALL things is nigh at hand; therefore be sober-minded and watchful in your prayers.

You are falling into the single verse out of context trap. Do you really believe that is correct? Also note it says "may be fulfilled" and may read "so all things will be fulfilled".

Here is a line from Job

7: So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and afflicted Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

That is written. Did the days of vengeance fulfill this? Its an untenable statement. Luke 21:22 cannot fulfill all things written. It cannot even be the end or Rev 21 is unfulfilled. What it MUST be saying to prevent a completly absurd statement is that it must be fulfilled because it is written. If there are a hundred things written and one is not fulfilled then all things may not be fulfilled that is written.
It is also reasonable to conclude that all things written are fulfilled for that particular event.


Your quote from Peter has no context except to the end and say it is at hand whenever that may be.

 

[gwynedd1]

Perhaps because there are "2 Jerusalems" in the Bible? Which one do you belong to?

Gala 4: 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is the mother of us all, .....30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10]

Then it is not the same event.

 

[icedtea]

Javier Solana will be the president in 2008.
heh, kidding, see other thread.

 

[brother daniel]

This must refer to 70 AD. Correct? Therefore we know that element of Mathew 24 MUST be in regard to the 70 AD event.
.

Beloved,
Hear the words of Jesus.


Mat 24:4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.




Mat 24:3¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



Mat 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The distruction of Jerusalemin 70 AD happened before the gospel was preached in every nation. That has only happened since 1919 or later.
So it cannot apply even if Josephus and others thought so.

Who would see this? Why Judea?

Because Judia is the area we call today Palistine and the future events concerning the coming of Jesus are set in Jerusalem which is in Judia.

It is also possable that since the BANKERS, Sabbitean, Synagogue of Satan based on the Talmud of the Pharasees economicly rules all cities and countries on Earth, all the cities on earth could rightly be considered "the land of Judia

This is Josephus describing the abonination of desolation

I dont think so since the temple in Jerusalem, ment and means nothing to God, who does not live in temples made with hands.

There were revolts in Gaul, Germany and Britain(Buodica is well famous and Britain was nearly lost) as well as recent trouble with Parthia Rome had 4 potentials to the throne of Rome at this time in addition to the revolt in Judea that was at Passover, meaning all the Jews were there.

Your explanation doesnt match thes words of Jesus.

Mat 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There were false prophets to keep the Jews fighting and destroying themselves. This was after Christ.

Mat 24:5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is no evadence that many came before 70 ad claiming to be Christ. But many have claimed to be Christ or the Missiah since.

Mat 24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


In 70 ad disciples of Jesus were not yet hated of all nations. In fact they prospered. The Romans came against Jews not Jesus disciples.

Because of the anti-Christ, UNITED NATIONS,Its only in the time we live that disciples of Jesus are hated of all nations for his sake

Mat 24:10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


This is speaking about the great falling away by those who vainly have taken the name of Christ and betray his blood covenent.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.



Mat 24:12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


Mat 24:15¶When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


I see the abomination of desolation as the Pharasee's, Synagogue of Satan and Crusaders doctrine of killing in the name of Jesus and God. It is the Pharasee that accuse Jesus and his disciples of
heresy and claim Gods authority to kill them and us.

Added to that the State of Israel has the Nuclear Abomination fathered by Robert Oppenheimer

Mat 24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


I see this as a reminder that we are to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy because there is a high possability it will be the day Jesus returns.

Mat 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation did not happen in 70 ad. It has yet to be fulfilled.

Mat 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


This is also not yet fulfilled.
Mat 24:24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


The great signs and wonders of false prophets can only be modern science.

Mat 24:33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.


Mat 24:34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[gwynedd1]

Beloved,
Hear the words of Jesus.


Mat 24:4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.




Mat 24:3¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



Mat 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The distruction of Jerusalemin 70 AD happened before the gospel was preached in every nation. That has only happened since 1919 or later.
So it cannot apply even if Josephus and others thought so.



Because Judia is the area we call today Palistine and the future events concerning the coming of Jesus are set in Jerusalem which is in Judia.

It is also possable that since the BANKERS, Sabbitean, Synagogue of Satan based on the Talmud of the Pharasees economicly rules all cities and countries on Earth, all the cities on earth could rightly be considered "the land of Judia



I dont think so since the temple in Jerusalem, ment and means nothing to God, who does not live in temples made with hands.



Your explanation doesnt match thes words of Jesus.

Mat 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.



Mat 24:5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is no evadence that many came before 70 ad claiming to be Christ. But many have claimed to be Christ or the Missiah since.

Mat 24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


In 70 ad disciples of Jesus were not yet hated of all nations. In fact they prospered. The Romans came against Jews not Jesus disciples.

Because of the anti-Christ, UNITED NATIONS,Its only in the time we live that disciples of Jesus are hated of all nations for his sake

Mat 24:10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


This is speaking about the great falling away by those who vainly have taken the name of Christ and betray his blood covenent.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

24:11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.



Mat 24:12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


Mat 24:15¶When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


I see the abomination of desolation as the Pharasee's, Synagogue of Satan and Crusaders doctrine of killing in the name of Jesus and God. It is the Pharasee that accuse Jesus and his disciples of
heresy and claim Gods authority to kill them and us.

Added to that the State of Israel has the Nuclear Abomination fathered by Robert Oppenheimer

Mat 24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


I see this as a reminder that we are to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy because there is a high possability it will be the day Jesus returns.

Mat 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation did not happen in 70 ad. It has yet to be fulfilled.

Mat 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


This is also not yet fulfilled.
Mat 24:24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


The great signs and wonders of false prophets can only be modern science.

Mat 24:33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.


Mat 24:34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
With love in Christ
brother daniel

Well, I tried as so you have as well to convince me. We both agree that there is an end that comes even now, so that will have to do for now.

May God bless us both in our search for the truth.