LDS Damnation for Refusal to Become Mormon

[He is the way]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the right-hand thief was not saved -- as per Mormonism -- by his recognition of Christ the Lord at his side upon the cross and Christ's own promise to Him at that time, but by the "proxy work" (baptism, etc.) done for him by Mormons, and his taking the chance to receive the fullness of the gospel and its ordinances in the afterlife, meaning whichever of the 'three kingdoms' of Mormon heaven that he made it into by said proxy works and after-death acceptance of Mormon preaching?

If so...well, that's about the wackiest thing I've ever heard.

Surely you don't wonder why others don't consider your religion to be a form of Christianity, after writing things as you have?

What is the point of even having a Christ figure at all in your religion, if you're all going to do it yourselves (the proxy baptisms, the preaching to the dead, et al.) anyway later? What does your Christ figure do but open the door for those things to be done? Our Christ, the Christ of Christianity, said upon giving up His spirit that "It is finished", and surely your preferred Bible translation must have that too. What do you think He meant by that? "Time for Mormons to come in and complete the job for me because I'm clocking out"?

Holy moly, I would be afraid to be Mormon in that context, knowing that I felt myself so spiritually advanced or gifted or whatever as to challenge God Himself with my own works instead of what He has done, thinking that I can perfect, complete, or restore that which God has already done and declared finished...that is if Mormons truly believe that Christ is God in the first place...it's kind of hard to sustain the hope that you do (as a religion, not as individuals; this is why Mormon "testimonies" do nothing for me, so you can skip that if you intend to respond to this, in fact please do) after reading replies like yours. Seriously, I internally shivered at that. Lord have mercy.

Apparently you don't understand what I said. Paradise is in the spirit world, it is not the kingdom of God. Then you say: "What is the point of even having a Christ figure at all in your religion, if you're all going to do it yourselves (the proxy baptisms, the preaching to the dead, et al.)" Do I need to explain the atonement to you again? We do not challenge what Christ has done for those who LOVE Him and keep His commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

Apparently you don't understand what I said.

Well yeah. Hence the questions that you're not answering.

Paradise is in the spirit world, it is not the kingdom of God.

I do not know what this means.

Do I need to explain the atonement to you again?

I'm sorry, but when did you explain it to me the first time? I must have missed it.

We do not challenge what Christ has done for those who LOVE Him and keep His commandments.

Then why all this extra stuff that stands between "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (apparently meaning "The spirit world", not "The Kingdom of God", despite the fact that the thief had just said to Jesus, as per Luke 23:42, "Lord, remember me when you come into Your Kingdom") and that actually happening? Is Jesus telling truth on the cross or not?

It sure seems like you challenge Christ our God's promise here with all your extra 'ordinances' to be performed (all that same day!) that the thief obviously would never have done.

Again, can you actually explain this? I don't want to read more "We don't challenge Christ" without explaining how it is you don't.

Or is it that you just don't see the massive contradiction between what you preach and what our Lord and Savior says in this passage?

 

[Ironhold]

So wait...in the Mormon conception of heaven, God the Father and Jesus Christ are physically together in the same 'level' of heaven, right?

Let's slow this down a minute.

In the period before the Final Judgement, a person is sent to the spirit world as a way station.

Once there, they will be put in one of two places: Spirit Paradise, for the righteous, and Spirit Prison, for the wicked. Basically, it's first class vs. economy.

When Jesus said that the one thief would be with him in Paradise, it's taken to mean Spirit Paradise.

 

[Ironhold]

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3)

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.

The damned are "saved" but not allowed in the presence of your highest god?

Based on how long you said you were a member, you should have gotten the lessons noting the difference between salvation and exaltation.

Salvation means that you're not going to Hell, while exaltation means you're going to the highest levels of Heaven.

 

[dzheremi]

Maybe it would be better asked this way, because I just read Phoebe Ann's very informative thread on JS' musings on paradise (which I hadn't seen before; good info, as usual!), so now I know a little bit more about what "Paradise" means within Mormonism, but I do still have this question: based on what you've written in other replies, HITW, and what I read in the just-referenced thread, Mormonism sees the "spirit world" as a kind of waiting room before entering the kingdom of God. What was confusing to that about me is that I thought that in Mormonism Jesus and the Father are on the same 'level' or whatever in heaven, so what other kingdom as per Mormonism would the thief be referring to if not that one, right? But then I read in that thread where you wrote that this "spirit world" is where departed souls go to be taught Mormon doctrines so that they may accept them (which I would assume would also mean to accept their posthumous baptism), and be granted entrance to heaven after the final judgment. Am I understanding that right so far?

If that is the case, there are still issues with it, though they are different and more interesting than I had originally thought. Namely, we can actually find a little point of connection (not really, since the content is different between us, but conceptually, in a way) between Mormonism and Christianity here, as it is of ancient provenance in the Christian religion to believe in an intermediate place (not in the RC "purgatory" sense...unless you're RC, I guess) where souls go to await the resurrection. The difference between us, it seems, is that this is not for people to be given some new information or second chances or whatever to act upon, as in Mormonism, but for those who have already successfully "ran the race to the end", yet still must await the general resurrection of the dead like we all will. So these are not the people to be preached to, as in the "spirits in prison" mentioned in the scriptures, which was a one-time event, but those who await the second coming assured of their salvation as the right-hand thief was by Christ Himself.

As HG Bishop Youssef puts it:

Paradise receives each deserving soul into a comfortable resting place awaiting the end of all tribulation and the Day of Judgment. The battle may be over for the departed soul; but the war persists for the rest of humanity until the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in His glory. "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed" (Revelation 6:9-11).

+++

The apocalypse of St. John is heavily allegorical, but this understanding seems to fit that found in the fathers, such as St. Cyprian of Carthage's fourth treatise on patience, which reminds us in dealing with heretics that we are to be as those who await the Lord's judgment after their martyrdom.

Anyway, the Mormon idea of additional instruction or whatever going on post-death (and baptism and all that) is still incorrect, but at least now I can see how it is extremely roughly analogous, as in, they're both places that aren't here, but aren't the ultimate destination of the souls, either. So that's interesting, I suppose.

Regarding the exact words, they became a bit clearer for me upon rereading just now HH Pope Shenouda III's "The Seven Words of Our Lord on the Cross", wherein he writes (p.33; as in original):

“You will be with Me in Paradise" is a pledge.. and you will come also with Me in My second advent on the clouds. You will stand at My right on the Day of Judgment, as you are now on My right on the Cross. You will represent the righteous, you will reign with Me in My kingdom and will be with Me throughout Eternity... Here I am with you every day and forever after...
​

So I think I had been overly focused on the word "today", as it is not so much as we think of it now as in "this 24 hour period" (keeping in mind especially that in the ancient world, lacking clocks as it did beyond sun dials, a "day" was from sunrise to sunset), but a pledge that as he is with Christ today, he will be with Christ forever after: in paradise (where he must wait, and Christ will be with him even there, though Christ obviously has no need to wait for His own return!), and eventually at the second coming, and then in Heaven.

See...so we kinda agree...sort of...but not really.

 

[Ironhold]

This actually is the place where people are preached to, and is what is meant when it is said that Jesus preached to the ones in prison.

Basically, the reason why people are assembled there is because they are to be taught what they did not receive in life; those in prison are, basically, the remedial class.

It is *then* that Final Judgement will happen, during which people will have one final chance to accept or reject.

 

[dzheremi]

This actually is the place where people are preached to, and is what is meant when it is said that Jesus preached to the ones in prison.

Basically, the reason why people are assembled there is because they are to be taught what they did not receive in life; those in prison are, basically, the remedial class.

It is *then* that Final Judgement will happen, during which people will have one final chance to accept or reject.

Yeah, no. In Christianity, paradise is the place or state of those who are to be received into heaven but have already passed on from this life, who await the resurrection. It's not a "remedial class" of any kind, as there's nothing more that those who have already won salvation need to know or do or accept in order to be saved.

But thank you for clarifying for me further what paradise is in Mormon doctrine.

 

[He is the way]

Our God is NEVER unjust. Therefore He saves whomever He will.


Your false prophets denied the priesthood to men who through no fault of themselves had dark skin.

Mormons don't decide who belongs to God.

Now if you want to argue fairness, that's a fun topic in light of your false gospel!

Negroes were told that they screwed up in a previous life and those pre-mortal actions put restrictions on them.

The white race would not be punished for what Adam did, and Mormon parents who had been sealed in the temple would receive the most choice children. Those children were BIC (born in the covenant) and would spend eternity with their parents if the parents remained obedient to the so-called gospel.

Other white children were born to non-Mormon parents. I was told that Heavenly Father considered me special as I would become a Mormon in spite of having come from a non-Christian home! Blech!

Time for your Postum break!

So I wonder if God did much the same to anyone else:

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 9:7 - 9)

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

Even the innocent Jews were killed in the Holocaust.

 

[He is the way]

Mormon god not a respecter of persons? Baloney!

Book of Mormon

". . . wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them (2 Nephi 5:21)."

Book of Moses (Pearl of Great Price)

". . . there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8)."

"And . . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)."

Book of Abraham (Pearl of Great Price)

". . . from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land (Abraham 1:24)."

"Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, . . . Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, . . . but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

"Now, Pharaoh being of the lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, . . . (Abraham 1:26-27)."

___________________________________________

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin....
Mark E. Petersen

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p. 66-67

Does God have any control or choice over this earth or is it all completely out of His control? According to Mormonism, this second estate of man is for the purpose of proving their worthiness to go back to God.

So I see no advantage to the non-Mormons raised without religion on any part of the planet over non-Christians. Mormons teach a segregated by works afterlife based on where a person was raised and blame those people for having been less worthy before they were even born.


Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Book of Mormon, Alma 34:34
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis,that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

There has never been a time where everyone on earth has been given the opportunity to hold the priesthood of God.

 

[He is the way]

I think most religions do this to some extent. I’m of 2 minds about it . Is it true vs are they doing it for manipulation.

Yes it is the pot calling the pan black. In fact they go a step further and say that once you are dead it is too late.

 

[Ironhold]

Yeah, no. In Christianity, paradise is the place or state of those who are to be received into heaven but have already passed on from this life, who await the resurrection. It's not a "remedial class" of any kind, as there's nothing more that those who have already won salvation need to know or do or accept in order to be saved.

But thank you for clarifying for me further what paradise is in Mormon doctrine.

Spirit Prison is the remedial class, which I made very clear in my post.

Please re-read it.

 

[Rescued One]

There has never been a time where everyone on earth has been given the opportunity to hold the priesthood of God.

What are you attempting to say?

 

[drstevej]

Yes it is the pot calling the pan black.

Do you mean: the pot calling the kettle black ???

Urban Dictionary: Pot Calling the Kettle Black

 

[Rescued One]

There is no need for Mormonism to be preached after a person's death. Mormons don't teach that every child has been given the opportunity to be "raised up in the way he should go."

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis,that I will repent, that I will
return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess
your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (Alma 34:34)



PRE-ASSIGNMENT TO NATION OR TRIBE

Our place among the tribes and nations evidently was assigned to us by the Lord. That there was was an assignment of this type before earth-life began, is a declaration in the Scriptures. Certain spirits were chosen to come through the lineage of Abraham, and this choice was made in the beginning. Other selections were also made and the nations determined upon by the councils in the heavens. When Paul was speaking on Mars' Hill he said to the Athenians:

Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom ye therefore ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world, and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men, for to dwell on the face of the earth; and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.---Acts 17:22-26

If the Lord appointed unto the nations the bounds of their habitations, there must have been a selection of spirits to form these nations....

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, c. 1972, p. 47

On the following page:

CHOICE SPIRITS GIVEN THE FAVORED LINEAGE.

 

[Rescued One]

What is the location of Paradise?

...This story highlights another important doctrine of the restored gospel: the spirit world is right here on earth and the spirits of our departed loved ones are in reality among us. This doctrine is as comforting to the Saints as it is unique among Christian beliefs of the afterlife. Our deceased family and friends are not gone, neither are they far, far away in some distant “heaven.” The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “They are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith.”
Life After Death: 6 Insights into the Spirit World | LDS Living

Just as paradise is not the eternal abode of the righteous, hell in the spirit world is not the eternal abode of the wicked. Reporting his vision of the telestial world, the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote: “These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.” (D&C 76:85.) He added: “These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.” (D&C 76:106. See also Rev. 20:13.) Hell in the spirit world will end when all people have been resurrected. Because of the atonement of Christ, there is an eventual release. (See 2 Ne. 9:6–12.) Those who remain “filthy still” (the sons of perdition) will remain in hell, but it will be a place separate from the hell of the spirit world. (See D&C 76:43–49.) After the sons of perdition are resurrected, the spirit world will have no inhabitants. (Bruce. R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 762.)

Peter refers to the spirit world as “prison,” and it is for some. (1 Pet. 3:18–20, 1 Pet. 4:6.) However, it is chiefly a place of learning and waiting, not a place of suffering. Here those who did not have an opportunity in mortality to receive the gospel, and those who had a partial opportunity but rejected it will be taught. In 1893, President Lorenzo Snow, then president of the Quorum of the Twelve, declared in general conference his strong belief “that when the Gospel is preached to the spirits in prison, the success attending that preaching will be far greater than that attending the preaching of our Elders in this life. I believe there will be very few indeed of those spirits who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable.” (Millennial Star 56:50.)
The Spirit World, Our Next Home

President Lorenzo Snow had an opinion not based on his church's scripture or on Alma 34:34.

 

[dzheremi]

Spirit Prison is the remedial class, which I made very clear in my post.

This actually is the place where people are preached to, and is what is meant when it is said that Jesus preached to the ones in prison.

Ahhh, yes...."This"...very clear!

 

[Light of the East]

IOW, you can't spend eternity with the Father and Son.

Weaponizing God

 

[Light of the East]

For Paul, the faithful will enjoy eternal life, but those who don’t know Christ will "be punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Hence his urgent call: "How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Romans 10:14).

Taking such texts at face value, many evangelical scholars maintain that even those who fail to hear the Gospel through no fault of their own will be damned. Often called "exclusivists" or "particularists", this group includes Hendrik Kraemer, Douglas Gevitt and R.C. Sproul. However, in recent years a growing number of evangelicals have argued that at least some who do not profess Christ before death can be saved. Broadly defined as "inclusivists" or "accessibilists", this group includes Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, Stanley Grenz and Nigel Wright. As evangelicals, they claim to find warrant for their "wider hope" in Scripture.

Inclusivists often draw an analogy with the Old Testament saints. In Hebrews 11, a whole line of godly figures who never knew Jesus explicitly are counted among the redeemed. Those who live faithfully within their own religious context today without hearing the Good News are seen to be in a similar position, and to be similarly qualified for salvation.

From: Do only Christians go to Heaven?

Does All Really Mean All?

 

[Rescued One]

Weaponizing God

I don't think you read the Mormon definition of damnation.

 

[Rescued One]

Does All Really Mean All?

Off topic. This does not pertain to Mormonism. Thanks anyway.