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Featured LDS Damnation for Refusal to Become Mormon

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    IOW, you can't spend eternity with the Father and Son.
     
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  2. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    I think most religions do this to some extent. I’m of 2 minds about it . Is it true vs are they doing it for manipulation.
     
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Christianity is one religion; Taoism is another; Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, are some. Which ones are you referring to?
     
  4. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    all except Taoism, which I really don’t know about , believe in some type of punishments after death . Sometimes it’s a sect by sect determination , some do some don’t
     
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Punishment after death for what?
     
  6. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    depends on what that particular sect thinks is a sin .
     
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    So is it a sin for me to not be Episcopalian? How do you define sect?
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Brightmoon, no answer to my question?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  9. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Was there even a question in the OP?
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Yeah, I feel like I'm missing something here. Can you give us a link or something to where Mormonism claims this so that we can talk about, Phoebe Ann?
     
  11. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    For Paul, the faithful will enjoy eternal life, but those who don’t know Christ will "be punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Hence his urgent call: "How can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Romans 10:14).

    Taking such texts at face value, many evangelical scholars maintain that even those who fail to hear the Gospel through no fault of their own will be damned. Often called "exclusivists" or "particularists", this group includes Hendrik Kraemer, Douglas Gevitt and R.C. Sproul. However, in recent years a growing number of evangelicals have argued that at least some who do not profess Christ before death can be saved. Broadly defined as "inclusivists" or "accessibilists", this group includes Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, Stanley Grenz and Nigel Wright. As evangelicals, they claim to find warrant for their "wider hope" in Scripture.

    Inclusivists often draw an analogy with the Old Testament saints. In Hebrews 11, a whole line of godly figures who never knew Jesus explicitly are counted among the redeemed. Those who live faithfully within their own religious context today without hearing the Good News are seen to be in a similar position, and to be similarly qualified for salvation.

    From: Do only Christians go to Heaven?
     
  12. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    HITW, was the right-hand thief saved or not?

    And if so how, according to your theology?

    I ask because he was not preached to, he did not 'hear' (in that sense), he was never baptized, etc., yet Christ the Lord Himself tells him "Today you will be with Me in paradise." And this was obviously in the NT, so your talk about 'inclusivists' pointing to OT saints doesn't apply here.

    Please explain this.
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    This is not about what I believe, this post was to show what Evangelicals believe. That being said I believe that the thief did go to Paradise and not spirit prison. I have stated many times that I am not a separatist.

    (Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3)

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
     
  14. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I'm asking you what you believe. Can you please answer the questions as to how, since you've said he was saved, even though he didn't do any of those things?

    Also, what is a 'separatist', in this context?
     
  15. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    As members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints we believe that salvation into one of the three kingdoms of heaven will be accomplished by almost everyone who has, does, or will ever live on the earth. After this life we will go to the spirit world until the resurrection. While there spirits who didn't hear the gospel will be taught the gospel before the judgment:

    (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    People have told me I can't be saved because they say I am not a Christian. I see that as being a separatist attitude. We believe that everyone will eventually receive the necessary ordinances for salvation by the proxy work being done in their behalf. Some people do not like the proxy baptism being done for the dead. It makes me wonder if they also do not like the proxy atonement done for them by Jesus Christ to have their sins forgiven if they repent. People who are baptized by proxy can accept or reject those ordinances done in their behalf. We know that Jesus visited the spirit world after His death. I hope that answers your question.
     
  16. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the right-hand thief was not saved -- as per Mormonism -- by his recognition of Christ the Lord at his side upon the cross and Christ's own promise to Him at that time, but by the "proxy work" (baptism, etc.) done for him by Mormons, and his taking the chance to receive the fullness of the gospel and its ordinances in the afterlife, meaning whichever of the 'three kingdoms' of Mormon heaven that he made it into by said proxy works and after-death acceptance of Mormon preaching?

    If so...well, that's about the wackiest thing I've ever heard.

    Surely you don't wonder why others don't consider your religion to be a form of Christianity, after writing things as you have?

    What is the point of even having a Christ figure at all in your religion, if you're all going to do it yourselves (the proxy baptisms, the preaching to the dead, et al.) anyway later? What does your Christ figure do but open the door for those things to be done? Our Christ, the Christ of Christianity, said upon giving up His spirit that "It is finished", and surely your preferred Bible translation must have that too. What do you think He meant by that? "Time for Mormons to come in and complete the job for me because I'm clocking out"?

    Holy moly, I would be afraid to be Mormon in that context, knowing that I felt myself so spiritually advanced or gifted or whatever as to challenge God Himself with my own works instead of what He has done, thinking that I can perfect, complete, or restore that which God has already done and declared finished...that is if Mormons truly believe that Christ is God in the first place...it's kind of hard to sustain the hope that you do (as a religion, not as individuals; this is why Mormon "testimonies" do nothing for me, so you can skip that if you intend to respond to this, in fact please do) after reading replies like yours. Seriously, I internally shivered at that. Lord have mercy.
     
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Our God is NEVER unjust. Therefore He saves whomever He will.

    Christian Bible Verses 4.jpg
    Your false prophets denied the priesthood to men who through no fault of themselves had dark skin.

    You can't compare Mormonism to Christianity and come out on top. You nor any of your past prophets is God.

    Christian Bible Verses 4.jpg

    Mormons don't decide who belongs to God.

    Now if you want to argue fairness, that's a fun topic in light of your false gospel!

    Negroes were told that they screwed up in a previous life and those pre-mortal actions put restrictions on them.

    The white race would not be punished for what Adam did, and Mormon parents who had been sealed in the temple would receive the most choice children. Those children were BIC (born in the covenant) and would spend eternity with their parents if the parents remained obedient to the so-called gospel.

    Other white children were born to non-Mormon parents. I was told that Heavenly Father considered me special as I would become a Mormon in spite of having come from a non-Christian home! Blech!

    Time for your Postum break!
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    (Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3)

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.

    The damned are "saved" but not allowed in the presence of your highest god?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    So wait...in the Mormon conception of heaven, God the Father and Jesus Christ are physically together in the same 'level' of heaven, right? So why would Jesus promise the right-hand thief "Today you will be with Me in paradise" if there was first all this other stuff he (the right-hand thief) would've had to do? Do Mormons believe that He said that knowing that the thief would get "proxy baptized", accept the Mormon teachings, etc. all in that same day? Who the heck was even performing "proxy baptisms" for the dead in Jesus' time, let alone the very day of the crucifixion itself? We know from St. John Chrysostom that some heretics of his time (4th century) baptized dead people, because he writes about it (I wish I could find the sermon; I've posted it before...he says it's hard not to laugh at these people because what they're doing is so obviously wrong and crazy, or something along those lines), but we have no indication of anything like the Mormon practice and all these other practices dating back to the time of Christ, let alone the very day of the crucifixion itself, if Jesus' words are accepted as true by Mormons. You'd think that with everything else being recorded, if there were 'proxy baptisms' going on among the Christians that day, it would've been noted, but whatever...are we just supposed to take Mormons' word on this, or is something that is proclaimed without thinking through its realistic implications in the context of the situation asked about?
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Mormon god not a respecter of persons? Baloney!

    Book of Mormon


    ". . . wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them (2 Nephi 5:21)."

    Book of Moses (Pearl of Great Price)

    ". . . there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8)."

    "And . . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)."

    Book of Abraham (Pearl of Great Price)

    ". . . from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land (Abraham 1:24)."

    "Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, . . . Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, . . . but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

    "Now, Pharaoh being of the lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, . . . (Abraham 1:26-27)."

    ___________________________________________

    Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin....
    Mark E. Petersen

    "There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p. 66-67

    Does God have any control or choice over this earth or is it all completely out of His control? According to Mormonism, this second estate of man is for the purpose of proving their worthiness to go back to God.

    So I see no advantage to the non-Mormons raised without religion on any part of the planet over non-Christians. Mormons teach a segregated by works afterlife based on where a person was raised and blame those people for having been less worthy before they were even born.
    :scratch:

    Acts 17:26
    And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    Book of Mormon, Alma 34:34
    Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis,that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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