Curious about Messianic Judaism... where do we "Goyim" fit in?

[Blue Money]

As a non-Jew (indeed, no religion at all) I am curious about where gentiles fit in (in the Messianic Judaic scheme of things.)
Can a non-Jew join, or does Messianic Judaism discourage non-Jews from joining (as does "ordinary" Judaism.) Or, do you proselytize like "ordinary" Christians do (do you consider yourselves "Christians" for that matter? Do you follow the "Great Commission"?)
What about heaven? Hell? Reincarnation?
Just curious, not trying to knock anybody's faith here (sorry if you find the term "goyim" offensive, but I was trying to get my post noticed.)

 

[simchat_torah]

Messianic Judiasm is primarily comprised of non-Jews, so no problem there really.

 

[anisavta]

Messianic Judaism is comprised of Jews and Gentiles. As long as Gentiles realize that becoming Messianic does not mean they become Jewish. To be Messianic means you believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah in a Jewish setting.
Some Messianic synagogues are stricter as to allow only Jews in leadership positions and others are comprised mostly of Gentiles.
To make it sound like the movement is mostly Gentile is not true.
Check out http://www.umjc.org/
Hopefully the Messianic Jews and Gentiles on this forum will help answer your questions.

 

[visionary]

We often say "Welcome home prodical child" to those who come here by faith... It is a greeting that helps people understand, there is no need to convert from Christianity.. nor is there any need to convert from Judaism here... We are both... It is a place where those who have come full circle and ended up at Yeshua's feet by faith.

 

[torahpointstoHim]

From what I know, mostly are gentiles, but there are some Hebrews, too, or probably Hebrew blood. Nice to know you're interested ^____^

Just a small sample of a gentiles role:
Exodus 12:48
If a "foreigner" has settled among you and wants to celebrate Passover to honor the LORD, you must first circumcise all the males of his household. He is then to be treated like a native-born Israelite and may join in the festival.

 

[ChavaK]

From what I know, mostly are gentiles,

This be true, from what I have seen online.., not that there is anything wrong with it.

but there are some Hebrews, too, or probably Hebrew blood.

What are "some Hebrews" or "Hebrew blood"? Do you mean Jews?

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Hi I figured since this thread simply deals with something I wanted to bring up I will just post it here rather than make a new thread. My question is this, (tho its been answered) there are clearly Gentile Messianic Jews (or whatever they are called) however i want to make an assertion, and you may respond I had this debate or discussion a while ago in another forum however with non-messianic's so this should hopefully be enlightening.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Law, and if you would like to look at it this way it IS Jewish in origin, and its suppose to be essentially what Judaism became after Christ, so my assertion is that you can be a gentile Messianic Jew BECAUSE Christianity is the continuation of Judaism, and it was very clearly proclaimed that salvation is for the gentiles as well so stuff like blood line is not needed anymore, and the circumcision is no longer needed as well, what do you think? am I just shooting in the dark? or do you think I have a point?

Peace.

 

[psalms 91]

We are grafted into the vine (Jewish) and are heirs of the promise. If we are grasfted in then we are all Jewish according to our hearts. Messianic is simply a way to look at Jesus and what He taught. Since He came to the Jewish and lived as a Jew then it only stands to reason that to understand what He was saying you need a Jewish perspective or how they would have understood what He said. This opens up the scriptures as never before to those who choose to look at it. We cannot escape our Jewish roots as there are feasts that are to bne celebrated and remembered eternally according to the Word. Hope this helps some

 

[anisavta]

Christianity is not the fulfillment of the law. The "law" is Torah. Torah means instruction.
Christianity was created around the year 400 or so.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Christianity is not the fulfillment of the law. The "law" is Torah. Torah means instruction.
Christianity was created around the year 400 or so.

Then what in your opinion did Christ fulfill exactly?

 

[visionary]

Hi I figured since this thread simply deals with something I wanted to bring up I will just post it here rather than make a new thread. My question is this, (tho its been answered) there are clearly Gentile Messianic Jews (or whatever they are called) however i want to make an assertion, and you may respond I had this debate or discussion a while ago in another forum however with non-messianic's so this should hopefully be enlightening.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Law, and if you would like to look at it this way it IS Jewish in origin, and its suppose to be essentially what Judaism became after Christ, so my assertion is that you can be a gentile Messianic Jew BECAUSE Christianity is the continuation of Judaism, and it was very clearly proclaimed that salvation is for the gentiles as well so stuff like blood line is not needed anymore, and the circumcision is no longer needed as well, what do you think? am I just shooting in the dark? or do you think I have a point?

Peace.

That I think is Paul's position... Except the part about being a "gentile" Messianic Jew... there is no such thing. You can be a part of the Messianic [believers in Yeshua, the Messiah Promised]Judaism [following in the spirit of truth as the gospel teaches via the Holy Spirit]. MJ is not Messianic Jews. It is Messianic Judaism... indicating a style of worship and faith in harmony with the OT and NT in the spirit of Yeshua.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

That I think is Paul's position... Except the part about being a "gentile" Messianic Jew... there is no such thing. You can be a part of the Messianic [believers in Yeshua, the Messiah Promised]Judaism [following in the spirit of truth as the gospel teaches via the Holy Spirit]. MJ is not Messianic Jews. It is Messianic Judaism... indicating a style of worship and faith in harmony with the OT and NT in the spirit of Yeshua.

I see what you are saying (I think) your trying to make a distinction between being a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and the people known as "Jews" ??

 

[Lulav]

I see what you are saying (I think) your trying to make a distinction between being a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and the people known as "Jews" ??

Almost,

a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and those Jews who follow Rabbinic (Pharisaical) Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a continuation of what Yeshua started in the first century and practiced by his apostles and all the Jews that believed. The Judaism of today is a continuation of Pharisaical (with those added laws that Yeshua called a yoke, a burden) Judaism from the 1st century after the Temple was destroyed.

 

[Daughter of Ararat]

Almost,

a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and those Jews who follow Rabbinic (Pharisaical) Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is a continuation of what Yeshua started in the first century and practiced by his apostles and all the Jews that believed. The Judaism of today is a continuation of Pharisaical (with those added laws that Yeshua called a yoke, a burden) Judaism from the 1st century after the Temple was destroyed.

If a gentile converts to Rabbinic Judiasm, he is ethnically/genetically gentile and religiously Jewish.

If a gentile converts to Messianic Judaism, he is ethnicly/genetically gentile and religiously still not Jewish?

I know Russian has two different words for religiously Jewish and ethnically Jewish. I wonder if the former could apply even though not the latter. Please explain the answer to me.

 

[visionary]

I see what you are saying (I think) your trying to make a distinction between being a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and the people known as "Jews" ??

No distinction... but one in Christ... Think of it this way... Jews are in the inner circle... gentile were once outside the gate.. Paul opens the door... the Jewish leaders are at the gate... demanding outward Jewish markings... Paul says look at what the Holy Spirit has done... make no demands more than what God already requires.. and they all say Amen... as they all gather in the inner circle to worship God.

 

[Lulav]

If a gentile converts to Rabbinic Judiasm, he is ethnically/genetically gentile and religiously Jewish.

If a gentile converts to Messianic Judaism, he is ethnicly/genetically gentile and religiously still not Jewish?

I know Russian has two different words for religiously Jewish and ethnically Jewish. I wonder if the former could apply even though not the latter. Please explain the answer to me.

I was amending slightly the sentence 'Searching for Christ' had posted, sorry for the confusion.

Your first sentence is almost true, ethnically(not genetically, conversion does not magically change your DNA) and religiously Jewish or from my perspective, a follower of Judaism.

The second sentence, there really is no conversion, unless you are a heathen to start with. It is not about becoming a recognized Jew, but more about living and worshiping as the Jewish believers in Yeshua did at the beginning of The Way.You don't become Jewish, but a fellow heir in the promises and are brought into the fold. As Yeshua said, he had other sheep not of that flock that he came for.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I was amending slightly the sentence 'Searching for Christ' had posted, sorry for the confusion.

Your first sentence is almost true, ethnically(not genetically, conversion does not magically change your DNA) and religiously Jewish or from my perspective, a follower of Judaism.

The second sentence, there really is no conversion, unless you are a heathen to start with. It is not about becoming a recognized Jew, but more about living and worshiping as the Jewish believers in Yeshua did at the beginning of The Way.You don't become Jewish, but a fellow heir in the promises and are brought into the fold. As Yeshua said, he had other sheep not of that flock that he came for.

Hey Lulav! How are you? Im downstairs and throughout the other boards for a couple weeks

Question, So he had other sheep not of "that fold" and he would bring them and make them ONE fold under ONE Sheperd right?

Now I realize "our fleshly" DNA doesnt change (if we were actually to know one another after the flesh, which we are not). So wouldnt we all become In Christ (By His Spirit) no more Jew or Gentlie (known after the flesh) but a NEW CREATURE in Christ (like spiritual DNA "of sorts" if you will allow the term)? Known after the one Spirit (both Jew and Gentile were made to drink into)?

Thus making of THE TWAIN (both Jew and Gentile) ONE NEW MAN (In Christ) known by the one and same Spirit we were all are baptized into.

Now here Peter (a Jew) is confronted with this (I read this just posting this part for reference)

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?


When you say... "It is not about becoming a recognized Jew, but more about living and worshiping as the Jewish believers in Yeshua did at the beginning of The Way"

In what way would you be indicating? Would you be indicating the way in which the Lord speaks of? As in worshipping God in Spirit and in truth?

Just curious so I understand where you are coming from better.

 

[visionary]

I see what you are saying (I think) your trying to make a distinction between being a Gentile following the faith of Messianic Judaism, and the people known as "Jews" ??

Almost... I am making a distinction between those who have the faith of Messianic Judaism and those who happen to be Jews and believers in Yeshua as the Messiah.

 

[christinepro]

Hi I figured since this thread simply deals with something I wanted to bring up I will just post it here rather than make a new thread. My question is this, (tho its been answered) there are clearly Gentile Messianic Jews (or whatever they are called) however i want to make an assertion, and you may respond I had this debate or discussion a while ago in another forum however with non-messianic's so this should hopefully be enlightening.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Law, and if you would like to look at it this way it IS Jewish in origin, and its suppose to be essentially what Judaism became after Christ, so my assertion is that you can be a gentile Messianic Jew BECAUSE Christianity is the continuation of Judaism, and it was very clearly proclaimed that salvation is for the gentiles as well so stuff like blood line is not needed anymore, and the circumcision is no longer needed as well, what do you think? am I just shooting in the dark? or do you think I have a point?

Peace.

Spiritual there is one new man but there is still the physical and I believe there are so many prophecies to be fulfilled for the physical Israel. Yeshua is the fulfillment of prophecy but according to Mathew 5:17 God's ways still rule and it is a heart/relationship issue. Don't forget Abraham was righteous before he was circumcised. I am a wild branch grafted into Israel through Yeshua and strive to follow God's plan. After all who is smarter. God or man.

Romans 11 is good to read:

The Remnant of Israel

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[b] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c] 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[d] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[e]
Ingrafted Branches

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g] 28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[christinepro]

I also like Isaiah 56
Isaiah 56

Salvation for Others

1 This is what the LORD says:
"Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this,
the man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain,
"I am only a dry tree."
4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."
8 The Sovereign LORD declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
"I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered."