Crossing yourself

[ZiSunka]

See the last character.....

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

Taw

T Crossed sticks Mark, Sign, Signal,

That's not hebrew, ancient or otherwise. It's prehebrew phonecian.

 

[ZiSunka]

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/phoenician.htm

 

[arunma]

Raising one's hands is the majority of the time (and should be) God led.I have done that during prayer feeling as if I am reaching out to God. I would do that on my own if never had been seen or "taught". That is God led...crossing one's self is a tradition that is "taught".

I agree that raising one's hands ought to be led by the Holy Spirit. Personally I've never felt led to do it, but I certainly don't mind this practice either (after all, in the end I am an evangelical). But I've also worshiped with a friend at his Episcopalian church, and when they cross themselves, that's also led by the Holy Spirit. Both of these practices are the traditions of man, and nothing more. Are we to discriminate between the two, merely because the Catholic Church adopted that practice?

Keep in mind that since I'm not Catholic, I don't believe that the Catholic Church was founded in 33 AD. Rather, I think that certain European churches slowly merged with Roman bureaucracy, and evolved into what is today called the Catholic Church. Now, it is undeniable that certain church fathers mentioned the practice of crossing oneself, and the European churches that evolved into Catholicism happened to adopt this practice. I suppose that certain people, who wish to be as un-Catholic as possible, threw the baby out with the bathwater by declaring the practice a pagan tradition. My point in all this is that just because the Catholics do something doesn't make it bad.

Amen...nor will practicing it get this child any closer to Christ. Baptism is specifically appointed for those that consciously accept Christ. To do it anyway is a whole 'nother thread.

I agree entirely, the ordinance of baptism isn't salvific (I am a fellow Baptist). But if we practice the non-Scriptural (though not anti-Scriptural) practice of dedicating infants, I don't think there's anything wrong with crossing oneself, provided that the act isn't seen as salvific.

If done openly, they could be a stumbling block, depending on your individual perception of the Catholic church and its' teachings coupled with your own ministry to the rest of the world that watches you.

Actually, this is a good point. Within reason, we should never act as stumbling blocks to others. But I think you'll agree with me that this only goes so far. For example, recently on this board, someone (perhaps you, actually) brought up the issue of vegetarianism and evangelism, and pointed out that if one were to evangelize to people who had a longstanding tradition of eating meat, it might offend the people if a vegetarian Christian refused their food. I happen to be a vegetarian, so of course a discussion followed. We ended up agreeing that it would be better for the vegetarian to initially step out of his comforts, and partake of the meat in order to remove stumbling blocks. But it was also pointed out that at some time in the future, the people being evangelized will notice that the vegetarian gave up his own practices for the sake of the Gospel, and that they would credit him.

Likewise, if a certain people, evangelized or otherwise, are strongly opposed to Catholic practices, it might initially be beneficial for a catholic (with a small c) to refrain from making the sign of the cross in their presence. But eventually, the catholic Christian might expect these people to understand that he means no offense or blasphemy, and those individuals would have to begin tolerating his practices as well. Right?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.

OK, this statement makes no biblical sense.
Lets look to see what the Jews thought of crosses back in the days of Ezekial.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Whoever told you this was not telling you the truth. If this was the case, then the Jews would also make a sign of the cross. We know that they do not practice this on thier foreheads, therefore it is not possible that Ezekial verse can apply. The fact that Jews concider it a curse to hang on a cross should tell you they would have never made the "sign" of the cross.

On another note:
I do find myself almost doing the sigh when I am about to do something that might take alot of faith. I never really go through with it but I did genuflect and make the sign of the cross ALOT when I was a Catholic.
I remember at the dinner table my mother, who was a devout Catholic, would have her hand at the starting position and to get everyones attention for prayer she would yell, IN THE NAME............
And then us kids would say, of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Sometimes if we were really not listening she would have to say, IN THE NAME a couple of times before we repeated of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Thats so funny she used to do that!

GEL

 

[arunma]

I don't know...I rather like the idea that the holy cross of Christ was hidden in the message of the Old Testament prophets.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I am not a catholic however, I went to a Catholic Deaf School in Boston, I did cross myself but I don't do that anymore. However, when I hear someone sneeze, I do the cross like a pope and say "bless ya"

 

[ZiSunka]

But I've also worshiped with a friend at his Episcopalian church, and when they cross themselves, that's also led by the Holy Spirit.

I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

 

[Skripper]

I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

From an Episcopal website:



Question: I see people crossing themselves. Am I expected to? What's it mean?



Answer: As with many Episcopal customs, crossing oneself is optional. Making the sign of the cross was used from the earliest times to sanctify every action of daily life from morning to night. Presently it usually signifies giving or receiving a blessing.



http://www.christchurchcincinnati.org/newweb1/faqs_glossary/faq.htm

 

[ZiSunka]

Ah, yes the Cincinnati Diocese. We were all familiar with how very catholic that diocese is.

 

[arunma]

I was episcopal for several years, with full membership at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland, Ohio and I have never seen an episcopal cross him/herself except the ex-catholic converts. It's not something that is taught in the episcopal faith nor is it part of the episcopal tradition for obvious reasons.

That's odd. When I visited an Episcopal church, several of the congregants crossed themselves. And there were only twelve people in attendance (it's a small church)!

 

[ZiSunka]

That's odd. When I visited an Episcopal church, several of the congregants crossed themselves. And there were only twelve people in attendance (it's a small church)!

As I said, there were people who crossed themselves, but those were ex-catholics. People who came to the episcopal church from other denoms or who were "born" episcopal do not usually do it. It is not frowned upon, but it is not taught to the children or new converts, either. It is permissible but not required.

But I already said all that!

 

[Filia Mariae]

From catholic.org

One of the main teachings of the early Church Fathers is that the sign of the cross is a declaration of defense against the devil. When you sign yourself, you are declaring to the devil, "Hands off. I belong to Christ; he is my protection." It's both an offensive and defensive tool.

...

Q: Why do Catholics use the sign of the cross with holy water upon entering and exiting a church?

Ghezzi: In order to participate in the great sacrifice of the Mass, you need to be baptized. Using holy water to sign yourself is saying "I am a baptized Christian and I am authorized to participate in this sacrifice."

When you make the sign of the cross when you leave, you say that the Mass never ends -- your whole life is participating in Christ's sacrifice.

....

Ghezzi: I think that it's not something to be taken casually. The sign of the cross has enormous power as a sacramental; it does not cause the spiritual thing it signifies but draws on the prayer of the Church to affect us in our lives. The sign of the cross is the supreme sacramental.

...

Q: When did the sign of the cross originate?

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...

Bleechers,

It would be helpful if you would have quoted Ghezzi's full answer in context, particularly in reference to Galatians 6:17.

 

[ZiSunka]

Bleechers,

It would be helpful if you would have quoted Ghezzi's full answer in context, particularly in reference to Galatians 6:17.

Are you saying that what Bleechers posted is wrong?

 

[Filia Mariae]

I'm simply saying that he cut the man he was quoting off in mid-sentence and deprived the readership of the benefit of hearing Ghezzi's complete answer. Surely, when one responds to a question, one wishes the listener/reader to hear the whole answer and not the first half of a sentence.

 

[P_G]

--<<MOD HAT ON>>--

I honestly hate posting Mod Hats
I dislike it even more when it is the second time one is posted in the same thread!

Now all of you who are NOT BAPTIST or ANABAPTIST
No matter how facsinating you find this thread
No matter how much you feel the need to set straight the discussion

I am telling you to NOT!

There will be no further nice warnings as posts in the thread
Just official warnings on your record.

I would also please ask the Baptists and Anabaptists to please be warry of their posts that they do not bait others who cannot debate in this forum

Thank you so much for you attention and understanding

Pastor George
Senior Administrator
B/A CPR

 

[Iollain]

Psa 63:3 Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.


Psa 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.


Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


I don't think crossing yourself is in the Written Word, but lifting your hands to the Lord is.

 

[arunma]

Psa 63:3 Because thy lovingkindness [is] better than life, my lips shall praise thee.


Psa 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.


Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

Psa 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

Lam 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


I don't think crossing yourself is in the Written Word, but lifting your hands to the Lord is.

Like I said, lifting up one's hands is only Scriptural if you take the words "lifting up holy hands" literally. As I said, I'm not against the lifting up of hands in church. I don't personally do it, but most people at my church do, and I think it's fine. But I also think that there's nothing wrong with crossing oneself. After all, just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it bad. Piano music isn't mentioned in the Bible, but should we destroy our church pianos? And my pastor uses a microphone when speaking to the congregation. Should we get rid of that too?

Certainly not. And for that reason, I am also not against making the sign of the cross.

 

[Iollain]

If people think there is some kind of power of protection from crossing themselves i think they should think again, that is putting power of your ability to sign a cross over something up there with sprinkling herbs about for protection...tis silly.

 

[ZiSunka]

But I also think that there's nothing wrong with crossing oneself. After all, just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it bad. Piano music isn't mentioned in the Bible, but should we destroy our church pianos? And my pastor uses a microphone when speaking to the congregation. Should we get rid of that too?

If you feel you have to play piano music before praying to get God's attention or to let him know you are getting ready to pray, or if you play the piano as a form of prayer, or if you plat piano instead of actually talking to God, then yes, it's time to get rid of that, too.

Anything that waters down the fact that Christ gave us total authority to speak to God directly anytime we want, that thing is an unnecessary ritual. It has more in common with the hindu practice of doing hand and body movements before, after or instead of prayer than it does with the Christian reality that God hears us whenever we speak to him.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

If people think there is some kind of power of protection from crossing themselves i think they should think again, that is putting power of your ability to sign a cross over something up there with sprinkling herbs about for protection...tis silly.

When I was a RC, I would make the sign of the cross before i did anything scary. I would do it if I got scared about something or I heard some bad news. Its not always before we pray. We used that sign in everday life, and in the church, we used that sign to show respect to the huge crucifx hanging in church while bending half way on one knee (genufecting). You don't say anything, you just do it. So, I think that I used it as a superstion sort of. That is my experience.

GEL