Critical Race Theory

[Ken-1122]

Ah, a James Lindsy article. I dont care for Lindsay because he tends to exaggerate issues, take concepts out of context, and misrepresent people's work. He has gone on screeds about D'Angelo recently, so I decided to get ahold of the audio book for White Fragility. The book is milk toast and D'Angelo repeatedly states in almost every chapter that she isn't condemning anyone and is mostly talking about the difficulties of talking about racism and the pitfalls of being blind to it. Heck I disagree with parts of the book and so do many other people who publish under crt.


The short of it. I feel Lindsay spends more time trying to state that CRT is racist, than actually demonstrating that.

Can you be a little more specific concerning your objections concerning the specific link I posted?

 

[Ken-1122]

The government

Which Government entity is allowed to bring cocaine into the country?

Well goodie for you and your lfriends. I guess that's how you know black people with money don't get hassled huh? We live in different world homes. Maybe you live somewhere life is fair. I don't.

I'm just saying it isn't as bad as you describe it.

Did you vote for Trump? You sound like a conservative.

I'm not a conservative, and I didn't vote for Trump last time. With him and Biden being the only choices, perhaps this time I will

Maybe you know the code word. I didn't say all black people get it I said they get it more than white people.

How do you know this?

 

[rturner76]

We can just drop it...

If someone wants to study racial migration patterns in the South (for example) you don't need CRT at all to do it.

That may not be as satisfying but ultimately, I don't see the need to entertain racist ideologies. We don't need to adopt the position of a racist who blames everything on whites to understand anything.

Right because whites never did pass racist laws did they? It'ss the modern blacks and liberals who are racist for calling policies that make a minority less than human unfair. It certainly could not of been the slave-owning plantation masters and the people who supported whites-only water fountains who supported racist government policies. Let alone a state governor who said:

"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." Nothing about segregation is tyrannical, is it?

You don't think any of those policies were racist? That is all CRT seeks to analyze is how those policies have affected people. But they couldn't have affected me and my dad, racism was cured in 1964 and everyone became progressive.

I guess since we've had a civil rights act for near 60 years, the hearts and minds of the people who attended lynchings should be changed by now. Certainly, none of those ideals got passed to their children. I mean most parents have absolutely no influence of their children do they?

 

[rturner76]

Which Government entity is allowed to bring cocaine into the country?

The CIA

I'm not a conservative, and I didn't vote for Trump last time. With him and Biden being the only choices, perhaps this time I will

Are you sure you are black? Are you aware that 9 out of 10 white supremacist organizations support Trump? Would you say you have similar political ideals?

How do you know this?

Personal experience, per capita statistics, and video of police murdering black folk with impunity.

Are you ok with the saying "black lives matter?"

 

[Dryskale]

Can you be a little more specific concerning your objections concerning the specific link I posted?

His first point is a random partial sentence from a book, and he spends paragraphs projecting meaning into that partial sentence.

Lindsay's motivation is to discrediting various social sciences, his methods are sloppy.

 

[Ken-1122]

The CIA

You have evidence that the CIA is currently bringing drugs into the country? What evidence do you have?

Are you sure you are black? Are you aware that 9 out of 10 white supremacist organizations support Trump? Would you say you have similar political ideals?

Are you black? Did you know in order to join the original KKK you had to be Christian? I couldn't but help notice you were Christian also; are you sure you are black? Do you and the KKK have similar moral ideas?

Personal experience, per capita statistics, and video of police murdering black folk with impunity.

White people have personal experience, stactics, and video of police killing white folk also; so what?

Are you ok with the saying "black lives matter?"

No, because I believe black lives matter to be a racist organization that does far more harm than good.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Right because whites never did pass racist laws did they?

You're talking about laws which specifically mentioned race....not all laws....right?

It'ss the modern blacks and liberals who are racist for calling policies that make a minority less than human unfair.

It is...Democrats in California are trying to overturn the Civil Rights Act. They put it up for a vote. They want to write new laws that discriminate against whites....but they have to kill everything MLK worked for first.

That's actual systemic racism...I don't have to make up any imaginary nonsense to prove it either.

What else can I conclude except that those people are racists?

That is all CRT seeks to analyze is how those policies have affected people.

I said at the beginning that CRT was just a tool for angry racists who hate white and blame them for everything.

You've come here and defended it....by blaming white people for everything and making racist statements about them.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[rturner76]

You have evidence that the CIA is currently bringing drugs into the country? What evidence do you have?

They sold drugs for South American cartels, and they sold opium for Afghan rebels for 39 years until the Taliban gave them the boot. WHy do you think we went there? They sold opium out of Laos before that. It's a standard CIA industry. It's how they pay for their illegal wars and torture camps. The people that know, know. People like you who turn a blind eye, they depend on.

Are you black? Did you know in order to join the original KKK you had to be Christian? I couldn't but help notice you were Christian also; are you sure you are black? Do you and the KKK have similar moral ideas?

Actually, I'm Catholic and the KKK hates Catholics. So you have much more in common with them since they endorsed Trump.

White people have personal experience, stactics, and video of police killing white folk also; so what?

Not like blacks folk per capita and not even close to the same impact on the white community as a whole. Poor whites get the shaft pretty bad by people like Trump and cops but not as bad as poor blacks Blacks also get paid less on average when in the same profession with the same amount of experience but racism against blacks is a thing of the past right? You think whites are the real victims of racism?

No, because I believe black lives matter to be a racist organization that does far more harm than good.

You are black and you don't believe black lives matter? Black lives matter is not an organization it is a statement. There are individual groups of people and individual people who use that statement as their rallying cry who all have different goals, expectations, and tactics to meet those goals but there is no national charter, national leader, nor an agreed-upon agenda. Do the lives of black people matter to you or not? I guess not if you know none of this. Especially if you would vote for a man who was found guilty of racist real estate practices in Federal court. Wake up man.

 

[rturner76]

I said at the beginning that CRT was just a tool for angry racists who hate white and blame them for everything.

You've come here and defended it....by blaming white people for everything and making racist statements about them.

Thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for proving mine too. I don't blame whites for everything. Just the systemic racism that we still have the residual effects of. Changing a law doesn't change people. I have been dealt with unfairly by white men many times in my life and it seems like when they were in a position that had power over me. It happens quite a bit to quite a number of people and you come on here talking about it's really whites who are the victims. That's racist. What's really imaginary nonsense is you thinking there is no race problem.

CRT studies past race ally bias laws like Jim Crow and how they have affected society. You seem to think there never was a problem and there still isn't a problem. You don't have to be an angry racist to see that white people passed Jim Crow so yes, they do get the blame for that AND the culture that it has propagated. It's naive to think it's all gone away now. In fact it's racist because you don't seem to think there was anything wrong with those laws or the culture that they produced.

QUOTE="Ana the Ist, post: 75405102, member: 302807"]You're talking about laws which specifically mentioned race....not all laws....right?[/QUOTE]

Yes, specifically racist laws, including the systematic elimination of the indigenous people of the land as a government policy.

It is...Democrats in California are trying to overturn the Civil Rights Act. They put it up for a vote. They want to write new laws that discriminate against whites....but they have to kill everything MLK worked for first.

That's actual systemic racism...I don't have to make up any imaginary nonsense to prove it either.

What else can I conclude except that those people are racists?

You're dang skippy that is over the top incredibly racist. If discrimination becomes legal, who would likely have more opportunities to practice discrimination? Blacks or whites? Can a white person practice discrimination on another white person? I honestly don't know what that's called. Some kind of self-loathingism?

 

[Ken-1122]

His first point is a random partial sentence from a book, and he spends paragraphs projecting meaning into that partial sentence.

Lindsay's motivation is to discrediting various social sciences, his methods are sloppy.

Below are a half dozen (out of many) claims he makes concerning CRT. Do you disagree with any of these claims? If so, which ones and why?

Critical Race Theory:
1. believes racism is present in every aspect of life, every relationship, and every interaction and therefore has its advocates look for it everywhere

2. relies upon “interest convergence” (white people only give black people opportunities and freedoms when it is also in their own interests) and therefore doesn’t trust any attempt to make racism better

3. is against free societies and wants to dismantle them and replace them with something its advocates control

4. only treats race issues as “socially constructed groups,” so there are no individuals in Critical Race Theory

5. believes science, reason, and evidence are a “white” way of knowing and that storytelling and lived experience is a “black” alternative, which hurts everyone, especially black people

6. rejects all potential alternatives, like colorblindness, as forms of racism, making itself the only allowable game in town (which is totalitarian)

 

[Ken-1122]

They sold drugs for South American cartels, and they sold opium for Afghan rebels for 39 years until the Taliban gave them the boot. WHy do you think we went there? They sold opium out of Laos before that. It's a standard CIA industry. It's how they pay for their illegal wars and torture camps. The people that know, know. People like you who turn a blind eye, they depend on.

Are they doing that now? Or is this something from a Century ago?

Actually, I'm Catholic and the KKK hates Catholics. So you have much more in common with them since they endorsed Trump.

I don’t like, nor do I endorse Trump. Actually after the 1980’s the tension between Protestants and Catholics faded so they no longer hate Catholics anymore. You love Jesus, and the KKK love Jesus. I think you guys just might be moral twins!

Not like blacks folk per capita and not even close to the same impact on the white community as a whole.

That’s an economic thing; not a race thing.

Poor whites get the shaft pretty bad by people like Trump and cops but not as bad as poor blacks

How do you know this?

Blacks also get paid less on average when in the same profession with the same amount of experience but racism against blacks is a thing of the past right?

Sources?

You think whites are the real victims of racism?

Racism has victims of all races; not just black people.

You are black and you don't believe black lives matter? Black lives matter is not an organization it is a statement.

Actually it’s both. As an organization, I find them racist; as a statement I find them insulting. Everybody knows black people’s lives are as important as any other life. When you go around shouting at people what they obviously know; as if they need to be told, it’s condescending and offensive. I am not about offending people that way.

There are individual groups of people and individual people who use that statement as their rallying cry who all have different goals, expectations, and tactics to meet those goals but there is no national charter, national leader, nor an agreed-upon agenda.

Yeah; the KKK is that way too; doesn't mean they aren’t organized. Whenever you have an organization based on race, no matter how innocent it may begin, it always attracts racist. 9 months ago (before white folks got involved) all the members of BLM that I knew were racist. They didn’t go around saying they were racist, but if you talk to them long enough, it comes out eventually. When sects do racist things during BLM protests, their actions are never chastised by the other organizations. You know how they say silence equals violence?
that applies to them as well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What's really imaginary nonsense is you thinking there is no race problem.

I never said that anywhere....

Must be your imagination.

You don't have to be an angry racist to see that white people passed Jim Crow so yes, they do get the blame for that AND the culture that it has propagated.

Tell us what else you hate about white people.

You're dang skippy that is over the top incredibly racist. If discrimination becomes legal, who would likely have more opportunities to practice discrimination? Blacks or whites? Can a white person practice discrimination on another white person? I honestly don't know what that's called. Some kind of self-loathingism?

California law mandates diversity in corporate boardrooms

They're making laws that are racist against whites. It's an extremely liberal group of left wing politicians.

I'm glad you agree they're all racist.

You wanna join the fight against systemic racism...start by pushing back against this instead of stuff from 60+ years ago. It's happening now and it's disgusting.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Certainly, none of those ideals got passed to their children. I mean most parents have absolutely no influence of their children do they?

I think it's hilarious that this is your excuse for making racist generalizations about the entire white race in the US.

1. There were racist white people in the past.
2. They had children.
3. Those children must be racist.

Is that about the gist of it? Is that your justification for making sweeping negative assumptions about the moral failure of white people?

 

[Dryskale]

Below are a half dozen (out of many) claims he makes concerning CRT. Do you disagree with any of these claims? If so, which ones and why?

Critical Race Theory:
1. believes racism is present in every aspect of life, every relationship, and every interaction and therefore has its advocates look for it everywhere

I disagree because he doesn't establish that is actually happening or the actual intent of scholars.

2. relies upon “interest convergence” (white people only give black people opportunities and freedoms when it is also in their own interests) and therefore doesn’t trust any attempt to make racism better

I disagree because he doesn't demonstrate this to be true.

3. is against free societies and wants to dismantle them and replace them with something its advocates control

I disagree with this because he doesn't establish that this in an actual goal and/or intent od any scholar.

4. only treats race issues as “socially constructed groups,” so there are no individuals in Critical Race Theory

I disagree with this because he is making this a false dilemma. CRT isn't discounting individual acts or individualism
Instead it addresses systemic issues.

5. believes science, reason, and evidence are a “white” way of knowing and that storytelling and lived experience is a “black” alternative, which hurts everyone, especially black people

He did not establish this to be a widely accepted belief amongst scholars. Anyone can make a claim, that does not mean the claim is widely accepted.

6. rejects all potential alternatives, like colorblindness, as forms of racism, making itself the only allowable game in town (which is totalitarian)

I definately disagree hard on this one. Lindsay is deeply misrepresenting crt here. Color blindness is not thrown out as a competing ideology. Color blindness applies to how individuals treat people, but it doesn't address demographic issues, so CRT steps in to address those issues.

 

[rturner76]

Are they doing that now? Or is this something from a Century ago?

It's part of their modus operandi. Believe it or not. If you really think the CIA doesn't sell drugs and torture people, I can't help you. You bought all the way in.

I don’t like, nor do I endorse Trump. Actually after the 1980’s the tension between Protestants and Catholics faded so they no longer hate Catholics anymore. You love Jesus, and the KKK love Jesus. I think you guys just might be moral twins!

Wrong. It is one of the elements they were founded on. Black, Jews, and Catholics......all vermin in their book. You would love 'em.

That’s an economic thing; not a race thing.

Economics is a race thing. You still don't know this country is run by white people? Which industry or trade do black folks have a controlling stake in? Don't say Burger King!

How do you know this?

Because I live in a place called reality. When I started paying attention to certain trends, repeated situations, and common experiences with others. The most interesting classes to me were (are) sociology and geography. People have tracked just about every statistic you can think of. I saw a common these all over the world. The people who are the majority population in a country on average have more wealth, land, education, important positions in government, the leadership of labor and trade unions, longer life spans, lower infant mortality rates etc. ON AVERAGE this is, not every individual situation is average of course but yeah, white land-owning males pretty much run the show. Minorities can do their best to fit in or just get left behind if they aren't able to assimilate.

Racism has victims of all races; not just black people.

Would you say some ethnic groups experience more racism than others? Probably not, you're fully invested in the illusion that the American experience is total equality for all it seems.

Actually it’s both. As an organization, I find them racist; as a statement I find them insulting. Everybody knows black people’s lives are as important as any other life. When you go around shouting at people what they obviously know; as if they need to be told, it’s condescending and offensive. I am not about offending people that way.

Great, you be a good little boy and the white man will always accept you as an equal. I guess because everyone loves black people so much we don't need to speak up when people kill us and get away with it. I definitely feel the love when a cop kills one of us and gets off scot-free.

Yeah; the KKK is that way too;

The KKK would prefer black folks either separate from them or die, whichever is more convenient. People who believe their lives matterdon't want them snuffed out by government employees.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's part of their modus operandi. Believe it or not. If you really think the CIA doesn't sell drugs and torture people, I can't help you. You bought all the way in.

Modus operandi? Really? More empty claims. Well at least you’re consistent.

Wrong. It is one of the elements they were founded on. Black, Jews, and Catholics......all vermin in their book. You would love 'em.

I ain’t talkin’ about 150 years ago, I’m talking about today.

Economics is a race thing. You still don't know this country is run by white people? Which industry or trade do black folks have a controlling stake in? Don't say Burger King!

Economics is not a race thing. White people do not all think the same. Just because there may be more white shareholders in company “X” does not mean the company will be run any different than it would be if the company had majority of black shareholders.

Because I live in a place called reality. When I started paying attention to certain trends, repeated situations, and common experiences with others. The most interesting classes to me were (are) sociology and geography. People have tracked just about every statistic you can think of. I saw a common these all over the world. The people who are the majority population in a country on average have more wealth, land, education, important positions in government, the leadership of labor and trade unions, longer life spans, lower infant mortality rates etc.

A whole lotta people in South Africa will disagree with you.

ON AVERAGE this is, not every individual situation is average of course but yeah, white land-owning males pretty much run the show. Minorities can do their best to fit in or just get left behind if they aren't able to assimilate.

I ain’t talking about what’s going on all over the world, I’m talking about what’s going on in THIS country. In this country; white land owning males do not run the show.

Would you say some ethnic groups experience more racism than others?

Yes. Black people can get away with being a racist more than white people.
*If a white person said about black people what Nick Cannon said about white people (closer to animals than human) Do you think public reaction would have been the same?
*If a white actor did what Jussie Smollett did but against black people, do you think he would have gotten away with it?
*If a white cop did this to a black man, do you think people would have noticed?

When racism happens against white people, it is more acceptable in American society than when it happens to black people

Great, you be a good little boy and the white man will always accept you as an equal. I guess because everyone loves black people so much we don't need to speak up when people kill us and get away with it. I definitely feel the love when a cop kills one of us and gets off scot-free.

The vast majority of people killing black people are other black people; and the reason they usually get away with it is because of the toxic no snitchin’ culture the people in the community adheres to. If BLM spent half as much of their effort demonstrating against black on black crime that they spend on the few cops that murder, we would see real change. But then of course it is easy to fight for change as long as it doesn't require change from you!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Color blindness applies to how individuals treat people, but it doesn't address demographic issues, so CRT steps in to address those issues.

What's a "demographics issue"?

Honest question. I'm curious about what that means.

 

[Dryskale]

What's a "demographics issue"?

Honest question. I'm curious about what that means.

ill use a famous example. Black Americans are roughly 13% of the population and are about 50% of the prosecuted crime statistics. Now scholars can use the CRT framework and additional data to figure out why this is the case.

Another example is the migration pattern study I posted several pages back. With the CRT framework and the available data a conclusion can be arrived at and policy and/or legislation can be brought forth.

 

[Ken-1122]

I disagree because he doesn't establish that is actually happening or the actual intent of scholars.

He quotes scholars Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic to prove his point! He uses their exact words.

I I disagree because he doesn't demonstrate this to be true.

Here he quotes one of the founders of Critical Race theory; Derrick Bell saying this.

I I disagree with this because he doesn't establish that this in an actual goal and/or intent od any scholar.

Here he even uses a quote from Robin DiAngelo’s book is everybody really equal to show this is an actual goal.

I I definately disagree hard on this one. Lindsay is deeply misrepresenting crt here. Color blindness is not thrown out as a competing ideology. Color blindness applies to how individuals treat people, but it doesn't address demographic issues, so CRT steps in to address those issues.

He also quotes from authors Sensoy and DiAngelo and Delgado and Stefancic, speaking out against color blindness in their books.
Color blindness does not need to address demographic issues; there are other ideologies to address that.

 

[rturner76]

I think it's hilarious that this is your excuse for making racist generalizations about the entire white race in the US.

1. There were racist white people in the past.
2. They had children.
3. Those children must be racist.

Is that about the gist of it? Is that your justification for making sweeping negative assumptions about the moral failure of white people?

The moral failures of racist white people is what I'm talking about, not ALL white people. If I gave you the impression that I hate white people, I have either misrepresented myself or you have made the wrong assumtion about my opinions based on my argument.

Your 1,2,3 assumption of my opinion is greatly oversimplified what is known as "culture." Culture is: the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.

The most populous ethnic group of the United States has always been western European. One aspect of that culture especially in the new world was the common belief that non-white people were born to be in a subserviant position in society. The latest science of the time and the "culture" taught that blacks were uncivilized, weak minded, lazy, permiscuous, impulsive, and if not controlled, criminal and violent etc. The laws of the timenot only reflected these cultural beliefs it reinforced tham.

My argument has been (though apparently not properly articulated) that when a commonly accepted and promoted belief of an ethnic groups culture is so central to their understanding of the world and in some places their fundamental way of life for hundreds of years, The culture likely did not do a complete 180 in one generations. Though the culture is rapidly changing, I think it will take more time for the old belief system to be replaced with an entirely new one.

Now, I never said all white people are racist, I keep saying (clumsily) that the dominant culture of white superiority has not been replaced. Donald Trump has bragged about capturing the vote of the "silent majority vote." Do you know who has always been considered the "silent majority?" You got it, whites who still believe in the old ways. They keep "silent" about how they feel so people don't lecture them about being bigoted.

Tell us what else you hate about white people.

Not the people, the domination.