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Creeping Liberalism

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by JM, Jan 2, 2016.

  1. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Well, if people would actually read my GKC quotes, instead of seeing the name and averting their eyes, they would see that what was said then is relevant to what we are talking about today. It's not about a man who died 80 years ago. It's about truth that matters now. And then my "obsession" wouldn't be one, either, right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
  2. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Quite right, but we CAN say that attitudes are degrading over the past century or three (though that degradation is a very long process). I have charted out, rather thoroughly, the fall of sexual morality over the twentieth century and into the twenty-first. What really sucks is that predictions I made from the trajectories I saw a decade ago, that I thought would take two or three decades to arrive at, have already come to pass.
     
  3. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Generally speaking, the field of psychology is a modern, and generally anti-Christian and anti-Orthodox thing in both its origins and most of its applications, for it really purports to replace the Church as the means of treating the soul of man. That Christians, even Orthodox ones, have managed to turn some of its tendencies to good use doesn't change the overall concept, that man's behavior may be predicted, controlled, and separated from his spiritual life, that it need have no connection to religious Truth. You've got it wrong. It gasn't been hijacked. It IS a hijack, and it is Christian hijacking of the anti-Christian thing that can sometimes be justified.
    So I'll go on bashing psychology. I look at its history, what it arose among, when and why, and why much more intelligent men of earlier centuries saw no such thing, and have decided that it needs to be bashed. The psych "sciences" are pseudo-sciences, that are only right coincidentally, insofar as they align with the truth about the human soul.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
  4. jckstraw72

    jckstraw72 Doin' that whole Orthodox thing

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    Gurney, i'm disappointed that you didn't take the obvious opportunity to reference Wayne's World

    ... of course, i've never been able to understand how what he plays sounds like Stairway ...
     
  5. All4Christ

    All4Christ ✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Ok, I'm bowing out now and unsubscribing. Remember we are family! :crosseo:
     
  6. MilesVitae

    MilesVitae Active Member

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    I think your last paragraph summarizes what I took with issue with in your original comment. Granted, such an attitude may be the case with a lot of libertarians in this country, but I don't think indifferent selfishness and relativism is what defines libertarianism - Tolkien, if I remember correctly, once commented that anarchism appealed to him a great deal. Tolkien certainly wasn't an atheist, a secularist, stupid, or a follower of Rand, and I doubt he was exceptionally more selfish or egotistical than the rest of us.
    My point is that libertarianism is a question of the proper level of involvement in society on the part of coercive state power, with the answer that it is better (even imperative) that the state not be the instrument by which we address a lot of issues. So, it's unfair to reject it as unchristian if you're doing so on the basis that's it's founded in relativism, apathy, and selfishness.
     
  7. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 sinner profoundly blessed by God

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    The posts are being read. People have assured you as much. I read your posts, and most folks in here are pretty bright. Your continued insistence that people don't read them on one hand insults the other poster, and secondly it implies reading comprehension deficits on the other. It also points to the fact that you want a certain response you're not getting, and when you don't like the response, you assume it's due to the inadequacies of the reader. Sometimes that could be true, but with the frequency you get frustrated about it, it's questionable. At the very least, one would think you'd quit it because you've been lampooned up the yin yang for it by jckstraw alone! LOL

     
  8. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 sinner profoundly blessed by God

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    I disagree. A Christian should demand his government live Christian ethics. You can say that's unrealistic. Fine. I don't care. Christians are called to bring Christian morality to the world. The government SHOULD encourage good Christian morality. Libertarianism is by its very nature secular humanist, Miles, and you know it. You go your way---I go mine is the very core of this! It must needs include apathy. If I don't want the government getting into the marriage business, I am saying that I will just have to agree to let lesbians "marry." Hence the apathy. Marriage has consequences legally. Marriage is a factor in social security benefits, pensions, visitations in hospitals, and many other "family"-driven items. The government really has to get involved in marriage to some degree for legal reasons, not moral ones. So if you're libertarian and want marriage to be a "you do your thing, I'll do mine," you're expressing a type of passing the buck apathy. I never said you're "stupid" to be libertarian. If I did, then I apologize. Libertarians aren't stupid, they're misguided and wrong.

    Also, I am not sure why you're using Tolkien as your political metric? Been reading the Hobbit lately? :sorry::sorry::sorry:^_^ Would C.S. Lewis approve? Would Father Schmemman? Would Chesterton be ok with it? Would Tolkien be ok with lesbian wedding cakes, marijuana-toking legally, and a host of other nonsense? Hard telling....

    Libertarianism is rooted in relativism and apathy. It's obvious.

     
  9. MilesVitae

    MilesVitae Active Member

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    Yes, a government should live Christian ethics in the sense that it ought not to promote evil, but not in the sense that it must legally enforce morality in all cases - I, for one would, certainly not want to live under a state with that kind of totalitarian control, Christian or not.
    We must bring Christian morality to the world, but that does not mean that we must use the state to do it in all cases. If I don't believe drug use, adultery, fornication, masturbation, lying, cruelty, lack of charity, or what have you should be illegal, that doesn't mean I'm apathetic on those issues and don't seek to change the culture and lead people to the truth - just that I don't think it's right/a good idea for the government to be the one to do that. It's a mistake to think "this is bad, the government ought to be prevent it/this is good, the government ought to do it." After all, the full implementation of that idea would be totalitarian socialism...

    I disagree.

    If one believes it's better that the state not being involved in something, why does that imply he is apathetic on the matter and doesn't think it should be addressed in other ways? It's one thing to tolerate something (in the proper sense of that word) at a legal level and abstain from using a particular means of addressing it - that's not necessarily founded in relativism or apathy.
    Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on all the issues you mentioned (abortion I certainly agree with you on, and I agree as regards gay marriage to the extent that the state does recognize marriage to begin with).

    Are you talking about people who think legal marriage should not be limited to men and women couples, or people who think there simply shouldn't be civil marriage?

    I was referring to your statement that it encapsulates the stupidity of secular humanism. Didn't take it as a personal slight - no worries =).

    Haha making my way through The Two Towers at the moment, actually. My point was simply to use Tolkien as an example of a great Christian figure who seems to have had libertarian or anarchist leanings (which was, as such, not founded in moral apathy or secular humanism).
     
  10. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 sinner profoundly blessed by God

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    I'm at work. I don't want to discuss this further. I disagree, and I could keep debating it. You won't change your mind, neither will I. I feel libertarianism is Ayn Rand on steroids. I see nothing to convince me otherwise. God bless.

     
  11. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

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    There are different types of libertarianism. Right wing libertarianism is Ayn Randism. Left wing is a whole other kettle of fish.
     
  12. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 sinner profoundly blessed by God

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    I think, and perhaps Rus will concur, that any philosophical system is incompatible with Orthodox Christianity. Even monarchy to some degree. We DO need government, but not to the extent liberals want it! We DO need private sector, but NOT to the extent conservatives need it. We do need a certain degree of a libertarian angle, but not as much as libertarians would like.

    Take me for example. My dad had $600,000 invested in the stock market after having been forced retired and rolling his stock from his company into private sector accounts. The company, AG Edwards, that managed my dad's money lost it! They mismanaged my dad's dough so badly that he lost $400,000 in a matter of just a few months! Needless to say, a class action lawsuit by a group of the retirees ensued. As my dad got pummeled, he was SAVED financially by Social Security. I mean SAVED. If Republicans had gotten their way back in the New Deal era, my dad would be broke and borderline homeless. Many Republicans believe social security is a ponzi scheme, big government crookedness, etc. It was my dad's lifeline $$$-wise.

    But in my state, California, government is bankrupting us. The pension system is out of control. I personally am going to be a beneficiary of the pension system, but despite that, I admit it needs drastic reform and it's unacceptable how the state is thrashing people with taxes for this at such a rate.

    The liberals are great on the environment, pensions, social services, animal rights, protecting the worker, etc. But they're awful when it comes to trying to strip us of our 2nd amendment rights, taxing businesses until they're suffocating, and spreading the vile moral decay of the LGBT fascists and abortion, euthanasia, etc.

    The Republicans love war. They crave it. They're positively entrenched in the military-industrial complex. They thrive off war and mayhem. They're also corporate goons and they love big business far more than the little guy at the small business level.

    So really I like to think about movies to imagine the parties. Anybody remember the movie "Alien"? Anyone? Well, the premise is fascinating. You take a giant spaceship. You pay a small crew to go far into the edge of the galaxy to a planet rich in mineral ore. The miners on the planet load the ore into your ship. You carry it back to Earth. It's a super long haul that takes literally over a year to travel, so you have to sleep during the return trip. You get a decent paycheck upon return. But what you don't expect is the ship is detoured to a mysterious planet by the ship's computer. The crew is told to go down to the planet and help the people on the surface since there is a distress call. It's absolutely required. What ensues is a crewman is afflicted with an alien parasite that gets into his chest and the alien comes aboard and wrecks total hell on everyone...one slaughter after another. We find out that the alien was WANTED by the company that sent the ship there! They intended for a crewman to get infected and die, and they want the alien as a bio-weapon for pure profit on Earth. $$$$$$$$$$$.

    THAT IS THE REPUBLICANS. Profit comes first. Death is just an unfortunate side effect of profit margins. Worker is expendable.

    When you watch "The Goonies," those TOTAL JERK real estate scumbags trying to take away all the homes of the Goonies' parents, kicking them out on the streets so they can build a rich man's racket club there, THOSE ARE REPUBLICANS!

    Or take a movie like Erin Brockovich....PG&E are obviously the Republican scumbags in that flick!

    If an insurance company is trying to not cover someone or worm out and let someone die, it's pretty Republican.
    The government wanting to register mutants in the X-MEN and you have the GOP ^_^

    The dirtbags in "Jaws" who know there is a great white killer shark in the waters, but want to keep the beach open for business anyway? Republicans! ^_^

    Then let's take the Democrats!

    Basically any movie you can think of where the government spies on people, there is communism, or societal degenerates, and you have liberals.

    American Pie--liberals
    Ed Wood--cross-dressing film director---liberal LOL
    The entire Federation of Star Fleet in Star Trek
    All the police chiefs and powers-that-be in the Dirty Harry movies who try to stop Harry from doing anything to catch cold-blooded killers
    The morons in the Road Warrior who are willing to give up their oil refinery and gas trusting the Humungous hordes will give them safe passage into the waste land! :confused::eek::p:p:p
    All the horny camp counselors of the Friday the 13th flicks
    The government jerks in E.T. that wanted to capture the poor alien
    The crazy mystic lady in Poltergeist
    All the big government conspirators in all X-Files shows and flicks
    Any and everyone even loosely related to "The Crying Game"
    The E.P.A. jerk, "Peck" in Ghostbusters who wanted to shut down their reactor
    All the liberal morons in "Red Dawn"
    Any corrupt trial lawyer you've ever seen in any movie ever
    All of the characters from Fifty Shades of Grey

    Honestly, if you look at liberals and conservatives, they're pretty bizarre. Normalcy, balance, equilibrium, peace, truth lay somewhere in the middle. Hudge and Pudge, right, Rus? ;)

    In the end the Fed, the petrodollar, international bankers all run the country. The illusion is thinking our votes matter anyway!





     
  13. GregConstantine

    GregConstantine Newbie

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    I'm bowing out too, some here just don't want to listen and think their position is the only possible one.
     
  14. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 sinner profoundly blessed by God

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    Yeah, those "some" folks are real jerks. I hear ya, Greg! To heck with those people! So narrow minded! It's a good thing the others complaining about conservatives don't feel their position is the only one!

     
  15. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Everyone thinks they are right. As someone (ahem!) once said,
    I don't think ANYONE here thinks their own position "the only possible one". We know there are other positions. What you seem to be complaining about is that other people besides yourself have the temerity to think they are right. We ALL think we are right. That is given. It may be, that two or three times a decade, someone here may come to be convinced by words that he or she was wrong, and change how they think. I know that Steve Robinson positively convinced me that I was wrong about the death penalty, so I know it can happen - even to me. I am not shocked that you think you are right, or that gzt thinks he is right, etc. the positions are not equal; one is pretty certainly more mistaken than the other. We merely disagree on which one that is. We either present an effective argument, or we deny the claim, a la Luke Skywalker's anguished "No! That's not true! That's impossible!" (I'd note that Vader's argument of " search your feelings" is highly dependent on a mystical Force that will really tell us the truth through our feelings, something always affirmed in our Holy... Uh, wait. Never mind.)
     
  16. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I think you mean political system here, but yes.
    We speak of "the Kingdom of Heaven". A "monarchy" with God as the Monarch is obviously what is intended. But not even really a human monarchy in the Fallen order.
    Look at the OT.
    God tries to set up the Israelites under Judges. But they won't have it. They want to copy the kingdoms and kings of this world.
    Democracy can only work as long as the people acknowledge God. When that ceases, the democracy crumbles. And under individualism in our time, it is simply disastrous. All human efforts must fail like the Tower of Babel.

    I oughtta clobber you!! ;)
     
  17. jckstraw72

    jckstraw72 Doin' that whole Orthodox thing

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    haha, i always chuckle when people frustratedly tell me "you think your opinion is right!" -- well yes, lil' lassie, that's why it's my opinion ;). what they're really saying is "i'm so angry that you won't just roll over and accept anything i say!"
     
  18. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    What Tolkien meant was that we ought to govern ourselves. That is what we are called to do, especially as Christians. But in the Fallen order, anarchy doesn't work. As an ideal, it is useless without Christ and submission to God, and so, whoever are the strongest around will still wind up ruling, only lawlessly. I think even Tolkien was assuming an environment of general Christian morality, if not faith.
    All law is coercion, or it means nothing. Men OUGHT to be coerced not to steal, etc, and very few men are actually committed to the Christian ideal; still fewer fulfill it. And we must live among them, and raise our children among them. The libertarian idea is based solidly on the individual with no consideration of community; I think the concept is ultimately even anti-Catholic, as individualism is a product of the so-called Reformation that reformed nothing. THAT is the basis I would reject it on. Any society MUST coerce its members, either in compulsion or restraint, in order to maintain the society. And if one thinks society need not be maintained, there are always barbarians ready to convince one otherwise.
     
  19. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    The thing that it seems everyone is missing is that law is a secondary thing. The first barrier against the proliferation of public tolerance of immorality is social disapproval; as long as a people has the common sense to recognize that a behavior is wrong and harmful (speaking of the evils that don't have immediate and obvious victims), people will do the evils in secret, in closets and in darkness. Law becomes necessary only when they insist on performing them in public. So we do not desire governmental interference as a rule, we require it as a desperate and exceptional measure when the first barrier begins to break down, when public disapproval cannot or will not restrain the public practice of the evil, or disappears altogether (in which case both the law's and the society's days are numbered).

    And we're NOT talking about public disapproval of Joe Schmoe, we're talking about public disapproval of masturbation, drunkenness and so on, what I spoke of as social stigma directed against behaviors, not individuals. When that fails, the society is threatened by moral breakdown, and appeal to law to restrain that, governmental force to discourage it, is legitimate.

    This need is always going to exist, as long as we have a Fallen nature, simply to escape chaos in the temporal world. And that's not totalitarianism, that's just the law and order of normal human civilization. Sure, it can become totalitarianism, just as it can become anarchy, and I'll add here that genuine anarchy is the most fearsome of states, for it means no law and order. So I am not saying we need or want the government to regulate all matters of public morality; generally speaking, it should only do so when breakdown is evident.

    On the family and marriage, the state has a vested interest in the family (as defined in the Christian sense), and so it is clear why the state would normally be expected to recognize and support legitimate marriage, though not to be the determiner of marriage. It ought to go without saying that there ought be no such thing as "civil unions"; a need to say that would indicate a loss of the Christian sense of the family.
     
  20. ZaidaBoBaida

    ZaidaBoBaida When do I stop being a Newbie?

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    Come on guys! Can we at least try to play nice in the sandbox?
     
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