Creedal Christianity

[Hazelelponi]

God bless and keep you dear brother/sister in Christ.

I'm new to this forum so I'm extending my hello to you all.

Nothing of this post has anything to do with this forum or its members, but it's something on my heart to say to those who profess faith in Jesus Christ.

I was saved. I was baptised. Just throwing this information out there.

So I'd like to tell you a true story, if you would be so kind as to bear with me for the point or moral of it.

I was on a completely different forum, trying to get to know it's people and talk. It's rather nice, I thought, to have discussions on the Bible and beliefs and faith with other believers..

I'm disabled, and most days can't get out of bed, and I'm also a little worried lately due to having some recent problems that indicate a possibility of cancer, so it's nice to keep worries out our mind and focused on God.. it's a lovely pleasantly for me really..

So I found a forum and joined in an "end times" discussion, to which I posted and added my thoughts and some scripture. I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain that Jesus was depicted in the New Testament as the Shekinah Glory of God.

It's an extra biblical expression but its easy because it's well understood by Christians im certain, and definitely short to write.. and I'm a lazy writer as I don't think a book long explanation should be necessary to a point any Christian should easily understand.

So okay.. I'm chit chatting and about to this point in the discussion where I'm showing Jesus as the dwelling/settling place of God on earth (Shekinah Glory) in His Glory just prior or as He ascended into Heaven, (Beautiful really), some type of moderator or administrator of the forum stopped me and completely changed the topic and asked me a question.

I had no difficulty with the question, he asked me if I believed Jesus to be God. So I answered very truthfully, although I didn't understand his point of asking.

I tried to explain how I believed the Bible to be the Word of God, and I believed everything the Bible says about Jesus unequivocally, and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

However, I explaines I didn't quite understand the Divine Nature and some of the concepts were too difficult for me to grasp, I didn't see the question as a yes or no.. as it's rather both yes and no if we believe in the Bible..

It was an utterly honest answer, I cannot claim to understand things I don't quite grasp.

I understand The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct in person, and same in Spirit and that beyond that I'm unclear. Furthermore, I don't find a necessity of having a grasp of the more scientific nature of how it all works, because I believe salvation is more important..

Quite frankly, it's SUCH a difficult concept I don't think God needs us to understand it, it's just a thing that IS, and my salvation is not hinged on it. (Thankfully, God kept it simple enough for me.. lol)

At any rate, after a couple of back and fourths, I was tols the forum was an orthodox forum, and was directed to that forums set of beliefs, which included the Nicene creed and several other creeds.

Which, I lightly skimmed when I joined and saw no difficulty with it, but decided to read to see if there was some statement about not being welcome if you didn't have a clear understanding of one of their concepts, even if you believed the words of the Nicene creed. (Which I do, they are from the Bible)

At the point I was reading, I was banned from the forum with a message calling me a heretic, and telling me they don't welcome cultists.

I'm not a cultist. I'm a bit of a Calvinist and would classify myself as a Primitive Bapitist if they didn't do so much hollaring . So I attend a southern Baptist church where the pastor speaks clearly.

Anyway, i find this a horrible way to treat other believers in Christ.

I understand now that according to mankind I am not a Christian, but a heretic that should be strapped to the rack and tortured or something.. and I'll definitely remember my place among "Christians" is that I don't belong..

But it's hurtful, and very hateful, and the God I know is not like that.

I will not stay on your forum, as I'm in a clear realisation that I'm not one of you and don't need another slap in the face, but please stop and think how Christians are treating people, and rethink it.

Someone should be able to say these are difficult concepts without being labeled as a heretic!

Anyway, I'll never call myself a Christian again, and I'll remove myself from all Christian community now that I know what I'm considered.. but really, this is so extreme. And I don't think God's an extremist.

 

[Southernscotty]

Welcome to CF dear friend and please know that none of us can truly comprehend God 100 percent. We are finite and He is infinite so we cannot truly grasp things like "all knowing" and Omniscience and Omnipresence and things like that. But the good news is just like you say, We do not have to fully understand salvation to receive it, God is love and loves us tremendously, So if we believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, Then we are saved. I know some here will disagree with us, But God's Word is the authority and it supersedes all opinions :]
Believe the Nicene creed and believe with all your heart :] Bless you

 

[faroukfarouk]

John chapters 14, 15, 16 and 17 speak of Father, Son and Holy Spirit; similarly, so does John's First Epistle.

 

[Southernscotty]

The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.


The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

 

[~Anastasia~]

God bless and keep you dear brother/sister in Christ.

I'm new to this forum so I'm extending my hello to you all.

Nothing of this post has anything to do with this forum or its members, but it's something on my heart to say to those who profess faith in Jesus Christ.

I was saved. I was baptised. Just throwing this information out there.

So I'd like to tell you a true story, if you would be so kind as to bear with me for the point or moral of it.

I was on a completely different forum, trying to get to know it's people and talk. It's rather nice, I thought, to have discussions on the Bible and beliefs and faith with other believers..

I'm disabled, and most days can't get out of bed, and I'm also a little worried lately due to having some recent problems that indicate a possibility of cancer, so it's nice to keep worries out our mind and focused on God.. it's a lovely pleasantly for me really..

So I found a forum and joined in an "end times" discussion, to which I posted and added my thoughts and some scripture. I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain that Jesus was depicted in the New Testament as the Shekinah Glory of God.

It's an extra biblical expression but its easy because it's well understood by Christians im certain, and definitely short to write.. and I'm a lazy writer as I don't think a book long explanation should be necessary to a point any Christian should easily understand.

So okay.. I'm chit chatting and about to this point in the discussion where I'm showing Jesus as the dwelling/settling place of God on earth (Shekinah Glory) in His Glory just prior or as He ascended into Heaven, (Beautiful really), some type of moderator or administrator of the forum stopped me and completely changed the topic and asked me a question.

I had no difficulty with the question, he asked me if I believed Jesus to be God. So I answered very truthfully, although I didn't understand his point of asking.

I tried to explain how I believed the Bible to be the Word of God, and I believed everything the Bible says about Jesus unequivocally, and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

However, I explaines I didn't quite understand the Divine Nature and some of the concepts were too difficult for me to grasp, I didn't see the question as a yes or no.. as it's rather both yes and no if we believe in the Bible..

It was an utterly honest answer, I cannot claim to understand things I don't quite grasp.

I understand The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct in person, and same in Spirit and that beyond that I'm unclear. Furthermore, I don't find a necessity of having a grasp of the more scientific nature of how it all works, because I believe salvation is more important..

Quite frankly, it's SUCH a difficult concept I don't think God needs us to understand it, it's just a thing that IS, and my salvation is not hinged on it. (Thankfully, God kept it simple enough for me.. lol)

At any rate, after a couple of back and fourths, I was tols the forum was an orthodox forum, and was directed to that forums set of beliefs, which included the Nicene creed and several other creeds.

Which, I lightly skimmed when I joined and saw no difficulty with it, but decided to read to see if there was some statement about not being welcome if you didn't have a clear understanding of one of their concepts, even if you believed the words of the Nicene creed. (Which I do, they are from the Bible)

At the point I was reading, I was banned from the forum with a message calling me a heretic, and telling me they don't welcome cultists.

I'm not a cultist. I'm a bit of a Calvinist and would classify myself as a Primitive Bapitist if they didn't do so much hollaring . So I attend a southern Baptist church where the pastor speaks clearly.

Anyway, i find this a horrible way to treat other believers in Christ.

I understand now that according to mankind I am not a Christian, but a heretic that should be strapped to the rack and tortured or something.. and I'll definitely remember my place among "Christians" is that I don't belong..

But it's hurtful, and very hateful, and the God I know is not like that.

I will not stay on your forum, as I'm in a clear realisation that I'm not one of you and don't need another slap in the face, but please stop and think how Christians are treating people, and rethink it.

Someone should be able to say these are difficult concepts without being labeled as a heretic!

Anyway, I'll never call myself a Christian again, and I'll remove myself from all Christian community now that I know what I'm considered.. but really, this is so extreme. And I don't think God's an extremist.

Ouch. Lord have mercy. I'm sorry you were treated that way by anyone.

I hope you'll stay around actually. (And welcome to CF!) We do actually have many different kinds of forums here, and they tend to relate a little differently - some people feel at home in one sort, and some in another. (I actually don't visit this one - General Theology - often anymore since it's frequently very much debates. But I must have made thousands of posts in GT when I was new here because I was actually interested in different kinds of theology, and still am.)

But we have fellowship areas, theology areas, those for different kinds of beliefs, different interests, and so on. I'm sure we can help you find areas you prefer.

By the way, I am Orthodox (big-O Orthodox - it identifies my communion, and you mentioned the group that ousted you was small-o orthodox which sometimes just means they consider what they discuss to be widely accepted). Our Church has been closely connected with the creation of the Creed. And I can assure you that you can't possibly BE a heretic. That title is reserved for one who DOES know and understand, and teaches contrary purposely. So that was both unkind and also completely inaccurate.

In fact, it ISN'T necessary to understand the Holy Trinity in order to "be saved". Would God deny Himself to children who love Him because their faith is simple? God forbid! Knowledge is NOT what saves us. It IS necessary for teachers and theologians and leaders, so that they don't lead others into error. But what they must understand is even limited to what they teach. No one perfectly understands everything we can know about God.

Anyway. Forgive me. I'm a little angry on your behalf, and very saddened that anyone out there is treating people that way.

I do hope you'll stay around. Please don't hesitate to call yourself a Christian if you love God and believe in Christ Jesus. And let us know if we can help you find welcoming areas. God be with you, dear lady. I'm praying for your health also.

 

[dzheremi]

Welcome to the forum, Hazelelponi. I am glad that you are here, and I pray that you will stay and join us in fellowship to the best of your ability. May the Lord have mercy upon you and heal you of all affliction and pain, and give you strength for every challenge and comfort in your times of distress.

I think it is important to state outright the most obvious reaction a person can have to what has happened to you on that other forum: it is unreasonable, cruel, and not reflecting anything of the irenic spirit of Christianity to ban someone for not understanding that which cannot ever be fully understood or elucidated. To openly not understand is much different than to stand opposed to that which is established. There are many things in my own faith that I will admit I do not understand, but I am there not because it satisfies my intellect, but because in Orthodox Christianity I find uniquely the awakening of my soul from its slumber and the nourishment of all aspects of the healthy, balanced spiritual life that I strive to live. So that is a foundational point: we live in the mystery of the incarnation, of the transfiguration, of the resurrection, etc. -- of all of these things as Christians because this is our life with God...this is how it has unfolded and is unfolding.

It is similar to with regard to the proper Orthodox worship of the Holy Trinity. We have in my particular tradition (which is also called 'Orthodox' both officially in its documents and name and by its adherents on account of its faith, but is sadly not in communion with the 'other Orthodox' that our friend Anastasia represents; Lord have mercy), which was born in Egypt in the early centuries of Christianity in that place, a prayer that we pray every morning as part of the first canonical hour of prayer from a book called the Agpeya that contains our daily prayers (mostly taken directly from the Psalms and the Gospels, but with other prayers and litanies that are unique to us). This prayer appears under the heading "The Faith of the Church", and it reads as follows:

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

Through this we proclaim that this is our understanding, and this is how we arrived at it. Not by sophistry and being able to argue this or that. Direct revelation from God. The Holy Spirit teaches us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. So from this I imagine that we could all say "We do not understand the mystery of God, but this is what we can say, because this is what we have been given by God."

Granted, the Coptic Orthodox tradition is one of several, and perhaps there are other Christians of other traditions who would be uncomfortable with such an idea. But we are not, and never have been. We proclaim this every single day.

But I do believe you have to give people 'space', so to speak, to ask questions and attempt to reason things out. We are not against reason; we just know its limits, as everyone eventually bumps into them. It was only after he had finished his famous and very dense Summa Theologica that Thomas Aquinas (who is a saint for the Roman Catholic Church, but not for us) supposedly said of all that he had written "it is all straw". We might say he was on to something then, but maybe not so much before.

So I hope you will feel free to ask any questions. This is a Nicene Christian environment as well, but sincere inquiry is not rejection, and in any case no one ought to say "This person is not a Christian because they don't understand XYZ." By that definition probably I am also not a Christian, even as I offer my unworthy worship to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the One God. +

 

[Hazelelponi]

God bless you all.. your very helpful.

 

[~Anastasia~]

God bless you all.. your very helpful.

God bless you also.


By the way, some areas you might possibly find fellowship and support?

Forums

Forums

Oops, that's didn't do exactly what I'd hoped. It should take you to the Leisure and Society tab (the first link) and the Support and Recivery tab (the second). Both gave a variety of areas, maybe some of them would interest you.

 

[Hazelelponi]

God bless you also.


By the way, some areas you might possibly find fellowship and support?

Forums

Forums

Oops, that's didn't do exactly what I'd hoped. It should take you to the Leisure and Society tab (the first link) and the Support and Recivery tab (the second). Both gave a variety of areas, maybe some of them would interest you.

Thank you for your help. I didn't mean to mislead though, I suppose I'm bad at explaining myself but I'm neither mentally ill nor addicted to anything...

I live in pain but I don't take any opioids or mind altering for it.. heck even if I needed it in the opioid epidemic environment we find ourselves in I find it doubtful even a dying person would be allowed pain relief.. lol..

But no, I'm solid there.

Thank you so much.. your a nice person.

Well I'm offline now. Goodnight to you and God Bless you. Perhaps ill look into your forum another day..

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for your help. I didn't mean to mislead though, I suppose I'm bad at explaining myself but I'm neither mentally ill nor addicted to anything...

I live in pain but I don't take any opioids or mind altering for it.. heck even if I needed it in the opioid epidemic environment we find ourselves in I find it doubtful even a dying person would be allowed pain relief.. lol..

But no, I'm solid there.

Thank you so much.. your a nice person.

Well I'm offline now. Goodnight to you and God Bless you. Perhaps ill look into your forum another day..

Oh dear, I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were mentally ill or addicted to anything. These are all under the heading with physical issues and you mentioned disability and cancer concerns?

Forgive me. I should have thought how that suggestion could look. It's a very broad umbrella. Basically "anything you might want support for".

Goodnight to you as well.

 

[bcbsr]

God bless and keep you dear brother/sister in Christ.

I'm new to this forum so I'm extending my hello to you all.

Nothing of this post has anything to do with this forum or its members, but it's something on my heart to say to those who profess faith in Jesus Christ.

I was saved. I was baptised. Just throwing this information out there.

So I'd like to tell you a true story, if you would be so kind as to bear with me for the point or moral of it.

I was on a completely different forum, trying to get to know it's people and talk. It's rather nice, I thought, to have discussions on the Bible and beliefs and faith with other believers..

I'm disabled, and most days can't get out of bed, and I'm also a little worried lately due to having some recent problems that indicate a possibility of cancer, so it's nice to keep worries out our mind and focused on God.. it's a lovely pleasantly for me really..

So I found a forum and joined in an "end times" discussion, to which I posted and added my thoughts and some scripture. I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain that Jesus was depicted in the New Testament as the Shekinah Glory of God.

It's an extra biblical expression but its easy because it's well understood by Christians im certain, and definitely short to write.. and I'm a lazy writer as I don't think a book long explanation should be necessary to a point any Christian should easily understand.

So okay.. I'm chit chatting and about to this point in the discussion where I'm showing Jesus as the dwelling/settling place of God on earth (Shekinah Glory) in His Glory just prior or as He ascended into Heaven, (Beautiful really), some type of moderator or administrator of the forum stopped me and completely changed the topic and asked me a question.

I had no difficulty with the question, he asked me if I believed Jesus to be God. So I answered very truthfully, although I didn't understand his point of asking.

I tried to explain how I believed the Bible to be the Word of God, and I believed everything the Bible says about Jesus unequivocally, and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

However, I explaines I didn't quite understand the Divine Nature and some of the concepts were too difficult for me to grasp, I didn't see the question as a yes or no.. as it's rather both yes and no if we believe in the Bible..

It was an utterly honest answer, I cannot claim to understand things I don't quite grasp.

I understand The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct in person, and same in Spirit and that beyond that I'm unclear. Furthermore, I don't find a necessity of having a grasp of the more scientific nature of how it all works, because I believe salvation is more important..

Quite frankly, it's SUCH a difficult concept I don't think God needs us to understand it, it's just a thing that IS, and my salvation is not hinged on it. (Thankfully, God kept it simple enough for me.. lol)

At any rate, after a couple of back and fourths, I was tols the forum was an orthodox forum, and was directed to that forums set of beliefs, which included the Nicene creed and several other creeds.

Which, I lightly skimmed when I joined and saw no difficulty with it, but decided to read to see if there was some statement about not being welcome if you didn't have a clear understanding of one of their concepts, even if you believed the words of the Nicene creed. (Which I do, they are from the Bible)

At the point I was reading, I was banned from the forum with a message calling me a heretic, and telling me they don't welcome cultists.

I'm not a cultist. I'm a bit of a Calvinist and would classify myself as a Primitive Bapitist if they didn't do so much hollaring . So I attend a southern Baptist church where the pastor speaks clearly.

Anyway, i find this a horrible way to treat other believers in Christ.

I understand now that according to mankind I am not a Christian, but a heretic that should be strapped to the rack and tortured or something.. and I'll definitely remember my place among "Christians" is that I don't belong..

But it's hurtful, and very hateful, and the God I know is not like that.

I will not stay on your forum, as I'm in a clear realisation that I'm not one of you and don't need another slap in the face, but please stop and think how Christians are treating people, and rethink it.

Someone should be able to say these are difficult concepts without being labeled as a heretic!

Anyway, I'll never call myself a Christian again, and I'll remove myself from all Christian community now that I know what I'm considered.. but really, this is so extreme. And I don't think God's an extremist.

Yeh, I've experience the same thing. Even temporarily banned from this forum over a year ago, much in the same fashion. It's not an uncommon experience being subjected to knee jerk reactions by prejudiced Christians. People often hear what they want to hear based on their preconceived notions. In old days there were Christians murdered by fellow "Christians" for confusion over theological technical terms, like "hypostasis". To me those who are so slow to listen and quick to judge typically have a slanderous spirit, uncharacteristic of those born of God. It is a horrible way to treat Christians, but it happens. Just read about Diotrephes in 3John.

 

[DeaconDean]

God bless and keep you dear brother/sister in Christ.

I'm new to this forum so I'm extending my hello to you all.

Nothing of this post has anything to do with this forum or its members, but it's something on my heart to say to those who profess faith in Jesus Christ.

I was saved. I was baptised. Just throwing this information out there.

So I'd like to tell you a true story, if you would be so kind as to bear with me for the point or moral of it.

I was on a completely different forum, trying to get to know it's people and talk. It's rather nice, I thought, to have discussions on the Bible and beliefs and faith with other believers..

I'm disabled, and most days can't get out of bed, and I'm also a little worried lately due to having some recent problems that indicate a possibility of cancer, so it's nice to keep worries out our mind and focused on God.. it's a lovely pleasantly for me really..

So I found a forum and joined in an "end times" discussion, to which I posted and added my thoughts and some scripture. I was trying (perhaps poorly) to explain that Jesus was depicted in the New Testament as the Shekinah Glory of God.

It's an extra biblical expression but its easy because it's well understood by Christians im certain, and definitely short to write.. and I'm a lazy writer as I don't think a book long explanation should be necessary to a point any Christian should easily understand.

So okay.. I'm chit chatting and about to this point in the discussion where I'm showing Jesus as the dwelling/settling place of God on earth (Shekinah Glory) in His Glory just prior or as He ascended into Heaven, (Beautiful really), some type of moderator or administrator of the forum stopped me and completely changed the topic and asked me a question.

I had no difficulty with the question, he asked me if I believed Jesus to be God. So I answered very truthfully, although I didn't understand his point of asking.

I tried to explain how I believed the Bible to be the Word of God, and I believed everything the Bible says about Jesus unequivocally, and I believe the Bible is the Word of God.

However, I explaines I didn't quite understand the Divine Nature and some of the concepts were too difficult for me to grasp, I didn't see the question as a yes or no.. as it's rather both yes and no if we believe in the Bible..

It was an utterly honest answer, I cannot claim to understand things I don't quite grasp.

I understand The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct in person, and same in Spirit and that beyond that I'm unclear. Furthermore, I don't find a necessity of having a grasp of the more scientific nature of how it all works, because I believe salvation is more important..

Quite frankly, it's SUCH a difficult concept I don't think God needs us to understand it, it's just a thing that IS, and my salvation is not hinged on it. (Thankfully, God kept it simple enough for me.. lol)

At any rate, after a couple of back and fourths, I was tols the forum was an orthodox forum, and was directed to that forums set of beliefs, which included the Nicene creed and several other creeds.

Which, I lightly skimmed when I joined and saw no difficulty with it, but decided to read to see if there was some statement about not being welcome if you didn't have a clear understanding of one of their concepts, even if you believed the words of the Nicene creed. (Which I do, they are from the Bible)

At the point I was reading, I was banned from the forum with a message calling me a heretic, and telling me they don't welcome cultists.

I'm not a cultist. I'm a bit of a Calvinist and would classify myself as a Primitive Bapitist if they didn't do so much hollaring . So I attend a southern Baptist church where the pastor speaks clearly.

Anyway, i find this a horrible way to treat other believers in Christ.

I understand now that according to mankind I am not a Christian, but a heretic that should be strapped to the rack and tortured or something.. and I'll definitely remember my place among "Christians" is that I don't belong..

But it's hurtful, and very hateful, and the God I know is not like that.

I will not stay on your forum, as I'm in a clear realisation that I'm not one of you and don't need another slap in the face, but please stop and think how Christians are treating people, and rethink it.

Someone should be able to say these are difficult concepts without being labeled as a heretic!

Anyway, I'll never call myself a Christian again, and I'll remove myself from all Christian community now that I know what I'm considered.. but really, this is so extreme. And I don't think God's an extremist.

First and foremost, I am a Baptist. Was raised in an Independent Baptist, and in the late 1990's, changed to the Reformed/Calvinist Baptist perspective.

When looking at the "Creeds" of Christendom, people seem to forget, the same with scripture, creeds should be view from a "context" perspective.

Nowadays, it common to say and believe that whosoever accepts what the Nicene Creed says is acceptable as what a "Christian" is defined as.

However, (you knew there would be a however inserted) just like scriptures, creeds should be viewed in context.

As it has been put to me, the Nicene Creed, although not it in reality, the Nicene Creed is used as a definition per se, of what "Christians" believe. What we have today is also known as the Constantinople Nicene Creed because in AD 375, it was added to.

Now, please before everybody jumps all over me, let me explain.

When the clause "baptized for the remission of sins" was added, it meant just that. Baptism was the way sins were remitted. In recent years, that "clause" has been changed in its meaning. (CF uses this disclaimer: ** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.) Source

Some "groups", and I use this term very loosely, teach children at a very early age the historic creeds. My mother who was raised Presbyterian, told me of being taught the Apostles Creed, and reciting the Nicene Creed in church.

That's all well and fine. But I have been a Baptist for over 43 years. And not once have we ever recited any creed in church. Not even in seminary did we do that.

Dr. Jimmy Draper once said:

A Creed is not a revelation of divine truth; it is not a rule of faith and practice, but it is a help in both. Creeds have no authority over conscience.

Earnest Reisinger said:

"DANGERS OF CREEDS AND CONFESSIONS

One of the dangers of Creeds and Confessions is using them to bind the conscience. They must never be used to bind the conscience. They can only bind the conscience so far as they are biblical, and they bind only those who voluntarily subscribe to them.

Another danger is allowing Creeds to usurp the place of authority. We do not worship the Creeds. The Bible is our final authority and standard, and it alone. By it we must prove all things. We must not exalt the Creeds above, or equal to the Bible. Creeds are the products of men. However, the respected Creeds are the products of many holy, competent, and seasoned men. The Creeds have proved a safeguard for Christians. They are not independent assertions of truth. They are derived from, and subordinate to, the Bible as the only source and standard of Christian authority."

Source

Anyhow, that's how I see it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

So okay.. I'm chit chatting and about to this point in the discussion where I'm showing Jesus as the dwelling/settling place of God on earth (Shekinah Glory) in His Glory just prior or as He ascended into Heaven, (Beautiful really), some type of moderator or administrator of the forum stopped me and completely changed the topic and asked me a question.

I can see your point here. And it is here, I want to quote John Gill, Baptist theologian and Pastor:

"and dwelt among us; or "tabernacled among us"; in allusion to the tabernacle, which was a type of Christ's human nature: the model of the tabernacle was of God, and not of man; it was coarse without, but full of holy things within; here God dwelt, granted his presence, and his glory was seen; here the sacrifices were brought, offered, and accepted. So the human nature of Christ was of God's pitching, and not man's; and though it looked mean without, the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in it, as well as a fulness of grace and truth; in the face of Christ the glory of God is seen, and through him, even the vail of his flesh, saints have access unto him, and enjoy his presence; and by him their spiritual sacrifices become acceptable to God: or this is observed, in allusion to the feast of tabernacles, when the Jews dwelt in booths, in remembrance of their manner of living in the wilderness: the feast of tabernacles was typical of Christ, and of his tabernacling in our nature. Solomon's temple, which was also a type of Christ, was dedicated at the time of that feast; and it seems probable, that our Lord was born at that time; for as he suffered at the time of the passover, which had respect unto him, and the pouring forth of the Spirit was on the very day of Pentecost, which that prefigured; so it is highly probable, that Christ was born at the time of the feast of tabernacles, which pointed out his dwelling among us; and is therefore very pertinently hinted at, when mention is here made of his incarnation. However, reference is manifestly had to the Shekinah, and the glory of it, in the tabernacle and temple; and almost the very word is here used. The Targumists sometimes speak of the Shekinah of the word dwelling among the Israelites: so Onkelos in Numbers 11:20 where the Israelites are threatened with flesh, until they loath it; because, says the paraphrast,

"ye have loathed "the word of the Lord", whose Shekinah dwelleth among you.

Jonathan ben Uzziel, on the same place, expresses it thus,

"because ye have loathed the word of the Lord, the glory of whose Shekinah dwelleth among you."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[~Anastasia~]

First and foremost, I am a Baptist. Was raised in an Independent Baptist, and in the late 1990's, changed to the Reformed/Calvinist Baptist perspective.

When looking at the "Creeds" of Christendom, people seem to forget, the same with scripture, creeds should be view from a "context" perspective.

Nowadays, it common to say and believe that whosoever accepts what the Nicene Creed says is acceptable as what a "Christian" is defined as.

However, (you knew there would be a however inserted) just like scriptures, creeds should be viewed in context.

As it has been put to me, the Nicene Creed, although not it in reality, the Nicene Creed is used as a definition per se, of what "Christians" believe. What we have today is also known as the Constantinople Nicene Creed because in AD 375, it was added to.

Now, please before everybody jumps all over me, let me explain.

When the clause "baptized for the remission of sins" was added, it meant just that. Baptism was the way sins were remitted. In recent years, that "clause" has been changed in its meaning. (CF uses this disclaimer: ** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.) Source

Some "groups", and I use this term very loosely, teach children at a very early age the historic creeds. My mother who was raised Presbyterian, told me of being taught the Apostles Creed, and reciting the Nicene Creed in church.

That's all well and fine. But I have been a Baptist for over 43 years. And not once have we ever recited any creed in church. Not even in seminary did we do that.

Dr. Jimmy Draper once said:

A Creed is not a revelation of divine truth; it is not a rule of faith and practice, but it is a help in both. Creeds have no authority over conscience.

Earnest Reisinger said:

"DANGERS OF CREEDS AND CONFESSIONS

One of the dangers of Creeds and Confessions is using them to bind the conscience. They must never be used to bind the conscience. They can only bind the conscience so far as they are biblical, and they bind only those who voluntarily subscribe to them.

Another danger is allowing Creeds to usurp the place of authority. We do not worship the Creeds. The Bible is our final authority and standard, and it alone. By it we must prove all things. We must not exalt the Creeds above, or equal to the Bible. Creeds are the products of men. However, the respected Creeds are the products of many holy, competent, and seasoned men. The Creeds have proved a safeguard for Christians. They are not independent assertions of truth. They are derived from, and subordinate to, the Bible as the only source and standard of Christian authority."

Source

Anyhow, that's how I see it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Just a comment ... the Nicene-Constantinople Creed cannot simply be changed - but it is true that some denominations interpret it according to their own doctrines, thus the "one baptism for the remission of sins" not being regarded by some of them as it was intended.

CF doesn't want to exclude those who don't view baptism as a Sacrament from their definition of Christianity, which is why they allow it to be interpreted differently, so people from all those denominations can participate.

For that matter, if understood - that Christ will "come again in glory to judge the living and the dead ... His kingdom shall have no end" actually denies certain eschatological beliefs that some hold. But that hasn't been noted as a point in CF's Statement of Faith. If someone pushes it, they might add that disclaimer as well.

Not arguing with you - just being a bit more precise in pointing out that some may well reinterpret or reject parts of the Creed, but that doesn't change the Creed itself. Creeds aren't worshipped, no, but neither is Scripture. Scripture however IS the highest authority of all that has been handed down to us. On that at least we all agree.

Peace to you.

 

[98cwitr]

@Hazelelponi

Please bear in mind that the Internet is a lion's den, a cesspool, and CF, being on the Internet, does not bar all the riffraff of the Internet. You will find pockets of true Christians that do as your OP suggests, but ad nauseam you will find those who label themselves as Christians in word only. I trust you will stick around, as we need folks such as yourself to spread the truth and to drown the violent roar of lying lions.

Peace be with you!

 

[DeaconDean]

Just a comment ... the Nicene-Constantinople Creed cannot simply be changed - but it is true that some denominations interpret it according to their own doctrines, thus the "one baptism for the remission of sins" not being regarded by some of them as it was intended.

Nor has it since it was changed when originally written. The so-called "Nicene Creed" that CF uses, is not the Nicene Creed of AD 325.

CF doesn't want to exclude those who don't view baptism as a Sacrament from their definition of Christianity, which is why they allow it to be interpreted differently, so people from all those denominations can participate.

Did I not include CF's disclaimer on that section?

(CF uses this disclaimer: ** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.) Source

Huh?

For that matter, if understood - that Christ will "come again in glory to judge the living and the dead ... His kingdom shall have no end" actually denies certain eschatological beliefs that some hold. But that hasn't been noted as a point in CF's Statement of Faith. If someone pushes it, they might add that disclaimer as well.

Is that not also a "late addition"?

Not arguing with you - just being a bit more precise in pointing out that some may well reinterpret or reject parts of the Creed, but that doesn't change the Creed itself. Creeds aren't worshipped, no, but neither is Scripture. Scripture however IS the highest authority of all that has been handed down to us. On that at least we all agree.

Peace to you.

Not arguing either, just simply pointing out that what people call the "Nicene Creed" is not the AD 325 Nicene Creed.

Just simply pointing out, some "groups" see the Creeds differently. I for one, have never recited one in church. And I never will. Other than accepting the "Nicene Creed" to be a member here at CF, I have never been required to accept the teachings of any creed to be a member at any church. And I never will.

But I can see where this is going, so before I'm branded any more than I have been previously, I am going to bow out gracefully and add:

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Knee V]

Whoever banned you and called you a heretic overreacted and should have taken the time to ask you what you meant and to give you a chance to clarify. There are many people who use varying kinds of language to describe what they glean from Scripture, and it is always good to make sure we understand what people mean before we react to what they say (I have certainly made that mistake plenty of times).

There are people who will say things about Jesus such as "Jesus is God's first creation," or "Jesus became God at some point," or "Jesus was filled with God's presence, but wasn't actually God," and other things. It is possible that that moderator on that forum assumed that you meant that you believe Jesus to be God's presence, but not God Himself, and then never made it clear that that was his impression of your words, and then never gave you a chance to clarify what you meant.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Nor has it since it was changed when originally written. The so-called "Nicene Creed" that CF uses, is not the Nicene Creed of AD 325.



Did I not include CF's disclaimer on that section?



Huh?



Is that not also a "late addition"?



Not arguing either, just simply pointing out that what people call the "Nicene Creed" is not the AD 325 Nicene Creed.

Just simply pointing out, some "groups" see the Creeds differently. I for one, have never recited one in church. And I never will. Other than accepting the "Nicene Creed" to be a member here at CF, I have never been required to accept the teachings of any creed to be a member at any church. And I never will.

But I can see where this is going, so before I'm branded any more than I have been previously, I am going to bow out gracefully and add:

God Bless

Till all are one.

Forgive me.

I meant only to clarify a few points. And I know the Creed was modified at a second council but I often try to simply things when they don't relate to the question at hand. But I'm not seeking to argue, and I am baffled about "where this going" from your response. (Though I might have been curious about your adamant refusal to recite a Creed, but I have an idea that you might question the intent of my curiosity, so I would spare you that.)

I don't participate in GT much anymore, so maybe I've missed some context. God be with you.

 

[DeaconDean]

Forgive me.

I meant only to clarify a few points. And I know the Creed was modified at a second council but I often try to simply things when they don't relate to the question at hand. But I'm not seeking to argue, and I am baffled about "where this going" from your response. (Though I might have been curious about your adamant refusal to recite a Creed, but I have an idea that you might question the intent of my curiosity, so I would spare you that.)

I don't participate in GT much anymore, so maybe I've missed some context. God be with you.

I will reply just this once.

I see plainly that you are Eastern Orthodox. I have truly tried to respect that in my posts.

There are some here, who literally take what the Creeds say for truth. And in the past, because of my Baptist heritage, two members here (GT, one EO and one Catholic) especially have vilified me because of my stance, conviction, and beliefs.

While I may have jumped the gun, usually whenever a person like me, who do not revere or use "creeds" as some do, we (me) are usually vilified for it. And I was afraid this was heading that way.

(Though I might have been curious about your adamant refusal to recite a Creed, but I have an idea that you might question the intent of my curiosity, so I would spare you that.)

I'll clarify.

I recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" because I believe in the United States of America.

I recited and pledged allegiance to the Marine Corps when I enlisted.

And because I did, I was/am bound to obey what those oaths say.

I once was vilified in a Baptist church, because I refused to hold up my KJ bible and recite an oath to it.

If I recite and pledge allegiance to any Creed, then I am duty bound to obey it. Same as the Pledge of Allegiance, and the enlistment pledge.

My allegiance does not lie in a specific version of God's word. Nor is my allegiance to God bound in any creed.

And I most certainly will not let my membership into any church, denomination, etc, be dependent on my acceptance/refusal of any creed.

I am however, bound to God and His word though my union with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I do hope this answers your question.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I will reply just this once.

I see plainly that you are Eastern Orthodox. I have truly tried to respect that in my posts.

There are some here, who literally take what the Creeds say for truth. And in the past, because of my Baptist heritage, two members here (GT, one EO and one Catholic) especially have vilified me because of my stance, conviction, and beliefs.

While I may have jumped the gun, usually whenever a person like me, who do not revere or use "creeds" as some do, we (me) are usually vilified for it. And I was afraid this was heading that way.



I'll clarify.

I recite the "Pledge of Allegiance" because I believe in the United States of America.

I recited and pledged allegiance to the Marine Corps when I enlisted.

And because I did, I was/am bound to obey what those oaths say.

I once was vilified in a Baptist church, because I refused to hold up my KJ bible and recite an oath to it.

If I recite and pledge allegiance to any Creed, then I am duty bound to obey it. Same as the Pledge of Allegiance, and the enlistment pledge.

My allegiance does not lie in a specific version of God's word. Nor is my allegiance to God bound in any creed.

And I most certainly will not let my membership into any church, denomination, etc, be dependent on my acceptance/refusal of any creed.

I am however, bound to God and His word though my union with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I do hope this answers your question.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You did answer the question which I didn't want to press you to ask. I was only curious. No worries here.

I was raised mostly in a Baptist Church, though also visited many others. I found the a Creed once printed in the back of one Statement of Faith but it was never recited. My first time in a place that recited it was a Lutheran parish, and my husband and I read over it and he was especially unhappy thinking "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" meant the Catholics.

Anyway. Yes, I dearly love it now as a Statement of Faith basically. And we do proclaim in every service together "what we believe".

But if there is ever any misunderstanding or taking things in a different way (back to the OP simply not being sure what the Creed meant at its depths - which is perfectly understandable - it's not even all fully expressed in an English translation) or in your case that you take it to be a statement of an allegiance of authority you do not recognize - well every person should go with their conscience.

It would be wrong in fact to do a good thing if we thought it was a sin when we did it, so we should always do what we believe with our best understanding to be right. I would never speak against anyone for that.

There can be a time and place for healthy discussion of what a person takes it to mean, or what it's intent was, and so on, if that discussion is wanted all around. But I don't care for arguments and don't want to vilify anyone. Especially for following their conscience. We risk all sorts of things when we condemn each other, even in our hearts, cause others to stumble, and so on. We are all seeking God with a sincere heart, I believe and hope.

Anyway. That was supposed to be my sideways apology for making you feel you had to be defensive. I'm truly sorry about that. Peace to you.