Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
It is the wheat (chosen) who convert and are changed (1Pe 1:2), not the tares.Conversion does not change a person? Is that what you believe? So no one who is a weed can ever convert, and no one who is wheat ever looks like or behaves like a weed? That does seem a little crazy.
It's the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, conditioned on repentance and baptism. . .which are the result of belief, not its cause.
Do not the Gentiles have the same promise; i.e., does not all mankind have that promise?
There are no sheep in John 3:3-8, no wheat in 1 Peter 1:2.It is the wheat (chosen) who convert and are changed (1Pe 1:2), not the tares.
It is the sheep (elect) who are sovereignly born again (Jn 3:3-8) believe and are changed, not the goats.
So that it could be the meaning of "water". . .Faith is the gift of God which God works and creates through the word (Romans 10:17), the same word which is connected with water in Baptism (Ephesians 5:26).
Which is the growth of the saving faith given by God at the sovereign rebirth (born from above).God gives us faith through Word and Sacrament. God is always working, creating, and strengthening faith through Word and Sacrament. And so God is justifying us, freely, through faith which He gives us as pure gift.
God never stops giving us faith.
So that it could be the meaning of "water". . .
Which is the growth of the saving faith given by God at the sovereign rebirth (born from above).
What Biblical word with the water?The water is water, the word is the word. Water with the word is baptism,
But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.because therein God connects His word to the water, making baptism more than just getting wet. As St. Peter says, baptism is not the cleaning of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a new conscience before God by the power of Christ's resurrection (1 Peter 3:21), which is why "this baptism which now saves you".
A most astute post my friend!Stop doing it.
The command to do so as clearly stated in the Bible ("Word" of God) is the word.What Biblical word with the water?
But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.
The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism, in that in both instances, the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves; while
baptism is a figure of salvation, in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.
"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."
"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life.
And now we have Peter and Paul in agreement, which is the truth of the matter, and not set against each other in untruth.
The command to do so as clearly stated in the Bible ("Word" of God) is the word
What is "go ye therefore, baptizing all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if it is not a command to join the water with the word; the triune name of God??
The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
First.
What is Baptism?
–Answer: Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
Which is that word of God?
–Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?
–Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God?
–Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Thirdly.
How can water do such great things?
–Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.
Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?
–Answer: It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?
–Answer: St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The issue is water baptism as salvation.What is "go ye therefore, baptizing all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" if it is not a command to join the water with the word; the triune name of God??
The command is clear, as is the element of the word.
As Luther clearly explains in the small Catechism:
That is not the issue; baptism is an effective means of grace - a conduit through which God works according to God's will and good pleasure.The issue is water baptism as salvation.
The darn issue is what ever Clare decides it is, from post to post.That is not the issue; baptism is an effective means of grace - a conduit through which God works according to God's will and good pleasure.
What Biblical word with the water?
But you have set Peter against Paul, who teaches that salvation is through faith, not by works (Eph 2:8-9), such as baptism.
The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism, in that in both instances, the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4) is the water that saves; while
baptism is a figure of salvation, in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences.
"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."
"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life.
And now we have Peter and Paul in agreement in the truth of the matter, and not set against each other in untruth.
Great Post; from an older form, while still essentially the same as the order in Lutheran Service Book, but I like the language better; the flood parayer and exorcisms: (WORKS OF MARTIN LUTHER - THE ORDER OF BAPTISM NEWLY REVISED)The holy and life-giving Gospel, the same word which the Apostle mentions in Romans 10:17. There is only one life-giving word that God speaks to us, and it's the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other word, that of the Law, does not give life, it does not save, but condemns us as sinners.
Oh, heaven forbid! I am not setting Scripture against Scripture, neither Peter against Paul, nor Paul against Paul. For Paul himself clearly teaches us that baptism saves, for he has written that all who are baptized are baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him by baptism, and raised together to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4).
Baptism isn't a work we do, baptism is the work of God.
When a preacher proclaims the Gospel and God works faith in the hearer, do you call that works? Or do you confess freely that God has worked through His own means? That a human being spoke the word doesn't change the fact that it is God's word; for here is the work of God: To give faith, to create faith, to forgive us all our sins, and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
I consider your claim to be a false charge. I am presenting the clear and unified witness of Holy Scripture: That God works through His own Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament.
Grammatically the ark/flood are the symbol which prefigure baptism.
ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
"And the antitype of this* now saves us, even baptism, not the putting away of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of good conscience before God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"
*this being the ark which saved the eight souls through the water of the flood. It is the type, baptism the antitype. So that even as the ark, through water, saved the eight (Noah and his family), so now does baptism (which likewise is through water), now save us. Not as though it were merely like a bath which cleans dirt off the skin; rather it is the answer, the pledge, of a good conscience before God, toward God, on the basis, by the power of, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus.
If baptism were just water, then it would merely be a cleaning of dirty from the skin, like any other bath or shower. But it's not merely water, but water connected to and comprehended with God's word, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 5:26. For this reason, this baptism now saves us; for all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), all who have been baptized have been buried with Christ, baptized into His death, and now been raised up, given new life, with Christ--alive with Him who rose from the dead (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13). So we have, as the Apostle says to Titus, been washed with the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, not by works we have done (Titus 3:5).
For it is by grace alone that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, but rather this is all from God, His precious gift--not by our works, our efforts, by anything we do or could do. So that none may boast except in the grace and love of God which He has freely showered upon us through the cross of our Lord Jesus. As the Apostle has written in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Galatians 6:14.
To God alone be all glory, thanksgiving, and praise. Now and forever.
-CryptoLutheran
Which presents the death of Christ as saving, not baptism as saving.The holy and life-giving Gospel, the same word which the Apostle mentions in Romans 10:17. There is only one life-giving word that God speaks to us, and it's the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other word, that of the Law, does not give life, it does not save, but condemns us as sinners.
Oh, heaven forbid! I am not setting Scripture against Scripture, neither Peter against Paul, nor Paul against Paul. For Paul himself clearly teaches us that baptism saves, for he has written that all who are baptized are baptized into Christ's death, having been buried with Him by baptism, and raised together to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4).
And likewise, it is a sovereign work of God (Jn 3:7-8), not effected or achieved by ceremonial rite.Baptism isn't a work we do, baptism is the work of God.
Faith and believing are never works, they are opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).When a preacher proclaims the Gospel and God works faith in the hearer, do you call that works?
I confess that God works in accordance with his own word, and does not work contrary to it, which word presents regeneration as his sovereign act, as unaccountable as the wind, not circumscribed, effected or achieved by any ceremonial rite (Jn 3:7-8).Or do you confess freely that God has worked through His own means?
Likewise, it "doesn't change the fact that it is God's word" in regeneration by sovereign, unaccountable action of God (Jn 3:3-8), neither effected nor achieved by ceremonial rite.That a human being spoke the word doesn't change the fact that it is God's word;
As the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent (Jn 6:29).for here is the work of God: To give faith, to create faith, to forgive us all our sins, and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Where do we find "sacrament" in the NT?I consider your claim to be a false charge. I am presenting the clear and unified witness of Holy Scripture: That
God works through His own Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament.
The flood is a type of baptism, which in turn is a type of salvation (1 Pe 3:21).Grammatically the ark/flood are the symbol which prefigure baptism.
ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
"And the antitype of this* now saves us, even baptism, not the putting away of dirt from the flesh, but the answer of good conscience before God by Jesus Christ's resurrection"
*this being the ark which saved the eight souls through the water of the flood. It is the type, baptism the antitype.
You missed the reason for flood water in the narrative (1 Pe 3:21-22), as a figure of judgment, death of the wicked for their sin, and death of Christ for our sin, and of which baptism water is also the figure of our death in Christ to sin, as Christ's death for sin (Ro 6:2-4).So that even as the ark, through water, saved the eight (Noah and his family), so now does baptism (which likewise is through water), now save us. Not as though it were merely like a bath which cleans dirt off the skin; rather it is the answer, the pledge, of a good conscience before God, toward God, on the basis, by the power of, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus.
It is precisely that, as a figure and not the reality itself, and which the Catholic church regards as "sacramental union."If baptism were just water, then it would merely be a cleaning of dirty from the skin, like any other bath or shower. But it's not merely water,
Ti 3:5 reads - "not by works which we did in righteousness, but according to the mercy of him he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."but water connected to and comprehended with God's word, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 5:26. For this reason, this baptism now saves us; for all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), all who have been baptized have been buried with Christ, baptized into His death, and now been raised up, given new life, with Christ--alive with Him who rose from the dead (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13). So we have, as the Apostle says to Titus, been washed with the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, not by works we have done (Titus 3:5).
And all the saints said, "AMEN!"For it is by grace alone that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, but rather this is all from God, His precious gift--not by our works, our efforts, by anything we do or could do. So that none may boast except in the grace and love of God which He has freely showered upon us through the cross of our Lord Jesus. As the Apostle has written in Ephesians 2:8-9, and Galatians 6:14.
To God alone be all glory, thanksgiving, and praise. Now and forever.
It seems we have reached an impass.Which presents the death of Christ as saving, not baptism as saving.
And that death of Christ likewise requires faith for it to be applied to you.
So it's faith in the death of Christ which saves, not the rite of baptism.
And likewise, it is a sovereign work of God (Jn 3:7-8), not effected or achieved by ceremonial rite.
Faith and believing are never works, they are opposed to works (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:18).
I confess that God works in accordance with his own word, and does not work contrary to it, which word presents regeneration as his sovereign act, as unaccountable as the wind, not circumscribed, effected or achieved by any ceremonial rite (Jn 3:7-8).
Likewise, it "doesn't change the fact that it is God's word" in regeneration by sovereign, unaccountable action of God (Jn 3:3-8), neither effected nor achieved by ceremonial rite.
As the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent (Jn 6:29).
Where do we find "sacrament" in the NT?
And where do we find "mysterion" in the Greek (where it is musterion), that I may examine these claims and translations also for Biblical veracity?
Baptism is both anti-type and type in 1 Pe 3:21:
anti-type of the flood, and
type of salvation.
You missed the reason for flood water in the narrative (1 Pe 3:21-22), as a figure of judgment, death of the wicked for their sin, and death of Christ for our sin, and of which baptism water is also the figure of our death in Christ to sin, as Christ's death for sin (Ro 6:2-4).
It is precisely that, as a figure and not the reality itself, and which the Catholic church regards as "sacramental union."
Ti 3:5 reads - "not by works which we did in righteousness, but according to the mercy of him he saved us through washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
Which is the terminology of 1 Pe 3:21, addressed above and in post #66, where we are saved by what baptism symbolizes; i.e., Christ's death and resurrection.
And all the saints said, "AMEN!"
Apples and oranges. . .It seems we have reached an impass.
You are right, the word "sacrament" is not in the Bible, neither is "automobile" yet we use both words to describe something,
Very informative. . .thanks.one a personal conveyance, the other what happens when God does something for mankind.
Harkening back some 49 or 50 years ago to our Lutheran Saturday School and our study of the Bible and the Catechism; there are two things that happen as a result of fatih (and in the Liturgy): There are Sacramentals and Sacrificials.
Sacrificals things that we do that proceed from our faith, Sacramentals are things that God does for us that give faith to us, that both strengthen and renew our faith. Sola Fide still applies; Sacraments do not supercede faith.
Some Churches define what a sacrament is in a more or less rigid definition; that is why Catholics and Anglicans have 7 while Lutherans have 2 (or 3, maybe 4 or 5; it defends on the tradition and their defining standard).
BTW, the term "Sacramental Uniion" is more of a Lutheran than a Catholic thing, as we impose a stricter definition on what constitutes a Sacrament.
Our definition is as follows:
For example;:
- It must be instituted by Christ himself.
- There must be a physical element(s).
- The word of God must be tied to the application of the elements.
- It conveys the forgiveness of sins; not by what we do, but by what God does through these sacraments.
Baptism was commanded by our Lord for "all nations" and was administered to "whole households"; no debate, it is in the Bible. The Physical element is Water; the Word tied to is is our Lord's command and "in the Name of the Father..." The Bible also informs is that it washese away our sins and "baptism now saves you".
Holy Communion, the Eucharist, the Mass, etc... lots of names, same sacrament. Commanded by our Lord; "do this" (plain speak there i'd say). It uses the Words of our Lord and bread and wine. It is done for the forgiveness of sins.
Grey areas...
Confession and Absolution; listed as a sacrament in the Augsburg Confession, but not in our other confessional doecuments; if not a "sacrament" in the strictest definition, it remains a Sacramental act: Instituted by Jesus Christ, and contain the promise of forgiveness of sins; "who so ever sins you forgive, they are forgiven, and who so ever sins you retain, they are retained. Physical Elements? The laying on of hands.
Holy Orders; the office of the Holy Ministry is commanded, and the purpose is to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments; both impart faith, and... carry the promise of the forgiveness of sins. Again the laying on of hands.
Anointing of the Sick; while instituted after our Lord's ascention, it contains the promise of forgiveness, and healing (spiritual and physical) using the Word and Oil.
Bottom line; if it walks like a Duck, and talks like a Duck, it is a sacramental act (and maybe a sacrament by definition).
Apples and oranges. . .
Got any doctrine using the word "automobile?"
Very informative. . .thanks.
Neither is the word "sovereign" itself, but like "Trinity," God's "sovereignty," is taught in the Bible.Perhaps it would help to point out that the word "Trinity" isn't found anywhere in the Bible, but heaven help us if we deny the truth of what that word means.
Neither is the word "sovereign" itself, but like "Trinity," God's "sovereignty," is taught in the Bible.
Would be delighted for you to present where "automobile" is taught in the Bible.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?