Creationists, what's up with two creation stories?

[Benoni]

Passages in Chapter One frequently contain the words .... "and God saw."
We do not see those words appearing in Chapter Two.


In Chapter One, we see God creating [bara]. "Bara" is a term when used this way is a feat designated solely for Deity. For, when used in this context. It meant to create something 'out from nothing.'



Note: We only see the Hebrew creation word 'bara' mentioned once in Chapter Two.

Why? Only once? In what context?

Its used to tell us that God RESTED from bara.

God rested from creating 'out from nothing' God does not "bara" in Chapter Two!

Genesis 2:3 niv
" And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating [bara] that he had done."
​

Yet, in Chapter Two, we see God still bringing things into being! Just not creating them!

Why was that?

When it says? In Chapter One? "God saw?"

God was seeing what was, yet was not yet to be seen by man's eyes. Chapter One! "And God saw it was good. "

Then, after? Chapter Two? ... God executed into motion what he had seen prior, by bringing it into the open for us to see.

In Chapter Two, God manifested how the creation he brought to being in Chapter One, was to unfold.

In doing so? In Chapter Two? God was making us retroactively, eye witnesses to the open display on earth that can be viewed by man. ... Genesis Two!


God did not bring man into being in the same manner in both chapters!

Different Hebrew words were put into motion!

In, Genesis 1:27? ...

God created man 'out from nothing.' BARA!
The INVISIBLE soul was created [bara] 'out from nothing!'
It was man's soul that was created in God's image (who can not be seen).

In, Genesis 2?

God was not creating [bara] (out from nothing) any longer. It says, he rested from such creating!

" And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating [bara] that he had done."
​

What we find in Genesis Two is the Lord providing a 'material home' for the human soul. A material body. For the souls he had created in Genesis One!

The Hebrew reveals that 'body' was not created [bara] out from nothing! It was formed and molded from what was already existing. The earth of the ground.

"From the dust of the earth."
​

The lifeless body was [yatsar] 'molded and formed' ... from what had already been created out from nothing!

"In the beginning, God created [bara] the Heavens and Earth."
​

The Lord in Genesis Two was providing a BODY for the soul. A body to make the soul that had been [bara] created 'out from nothing' a home while on earth. An earthly home so the soul could be alive to being placed into time and space.

Its the SOUL that was created in Gods image! Not our body!

God as Deity is invisible essence. The human soul was created invisible essence!

The earthly body was simply provided as to make the soul able to be made manifested in the realm of time and space. God lives in Eternity. Our soul has been designed for Eternal life! This life on earth is temporal.

Genesis One? Man's soul had been created.

The type of soul animals have was also created. All in Chapter One!

And? God rested from bara on the seventh day! So, no more God creating 'out from nothing' to be found in Chapter Two.

In Chapter Two? ... God reveals in a different order of sequence of what had already been created by God in Chapter One. They did not have to be manifested for us to see in Chapter One. God did not have to run "test models" in Chapter One. Because whatever God creates? Is perfectly done!

So, God placed what had been created in Chapter One to be later in public view, in Chapter Two.



In Chapter One? - Only, God saw!

In Chapter Two? - Now, we see it!

There are not two different accounts of creation. .

Its two accounts, revealing how the same creation unfolded!


Grace and peace, GeneZ





.

The soul was not created until the seventh day; that is when God form man from the duct of the earth; nothing about the soul in the sixth day.

Gen 1:26And God said, Let us (Elohim) make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

What does it mean “make man in our image, after our likeness” we are speaking about Elohim here.

The same Elohim like in Psalm 82.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little “g” or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

 

[busterdog]

But it is still the action (which, in fact, did not occur) that is sin. Not the mere fact that he had inadequate information.

Having been warned and prevented from action, no blame attaches to him precisely because his information was incomplete. Far from being sin, the inadequacy of his information rendered him innocent.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note the thought crimes.

However, action and thought are pretty much never seperated in any practical sense.

The above does a nice job of sticking the semantic foot in the door of many that you are trying to slam shut.

 

[busterdog]

Creationists, what's up with two creation stories?


I urge Creationists to explain to me how they can justify two completely different accounts of creation. I've had another look at this, and there does seem to be a total contradiction with the two creation accounts.. Adam and Eve 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. another account, from a different source..
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground just bare earth, no plant life or human life, and streams coming up from the ground, presumably from mist falling and accumulating water underground. - 7 the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Man formed from the dust, at a time where there is no other life.. yes a total contradiction to the first account, I can only conclude that the account is erroneous.

We did that above.

 

[gluadys]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note the thought crimes.

I don't see inadequate information listed among them. I don't see "geocentrists" listed among them.

 

[LittleNipper]

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note the thought crimes.

However, action and thought are pretty much never seperated in any practical sense.

The above does a nice job of sticking the semantic foot in the door of many that you are trying to slam shut.

My take is that GOD is saying that these things will not exist in heaven. If GOD is saying that anyone who even thinks this way cannot be saved, then I'm in deep, deep trouble. I'm save by grave. CHRIST's blood covers me and changes my direction; however, I will not see glorification/perfection until the day I die. I still error and I still have emotions and evil thoughts do pop into my brain. I simply turn such over to GOD and not dwell on them.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I urge Creationists to explain to me how they can justify two completely different accounts of creation.

First creation story - Genesis 1:1-2:4a
Second creation story - Genesis 2:4b-25


In the first creation story birds and sea creatures are made on the fifth day. Land animals are made first on the sixth day, then Human beings.
In the second creation story God forms man from the dust and decides he needs a helper so he forms all of the animals and brings them to Adam.

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Genesis 2:18-19 (NASB)

When were animals created? Before or after humans?

If you look at Genesis 2:4 its what is sometimes referred to as a toledoth statement. In anceint near eastern literature, books, poems and such were often signed with a statement at the end of the work to signify who had written it.

So 2:4 goes with the creation account which spans from chapter 1 through chapter 2 verse 4. It is essentially a statement that what went before was written by God, or handed down by God.

Proceeding from Genesis 2:5 on through the end of chapter 2, the so called "second creation story" is in fact the creation of the garden of eden specifically, not of the world generally.

this is why it begins with the creation of man, because the garden of eden was specifically made for man, after man was created. When it talks about the trees and the plants growing here, it occurs after the creation of man, but this is because it is speaking specifically of the plants in the garden. Not all the plants in the world etc.

When you get down to the animals specifically the verb used to say "God formed the animals" is in the imperfect tense. That means the action began in the past, but is still continuing.

So, technically this doesn't even mean that the animals were formed after Adam in this account because the imperfect tense tells us that the forming began in the past. It doesn't specify when. Which is why some translations such as the ESV render this as "God HAD formed". Technically thats not gramatically correct because HAD formed would usually only be used with the perfect tense, because it implies a completed finished action. Where as the imperfect tense implies a continuing action.

So all this really says is that Go was still forming animals, or he continued to form animals at this time.

When you put that in the context of the fact that this is speaking specifically about the garden of Eden, and not the entire planet as a whole.. it easily becomes understandible that like with the plants described earlier, God didn't wait for them to grow up by natural process, he just made more when he planted the garden. Likewise he just made more animals to bring them before Adam, rather than gathering the previously made ones from all over the surface of the earth.

 

[GenemZ]

The soul was not created until the seventh day; that is when God form man from the duct of the earth; nothing about the soul in the sixth day.

Gen 1:26And God said, Let us (Elohim) make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

What does it mean “make man in our image, after our likeness” we are speaking about Elohim here.

The same Elohim like in Psalm 82.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little “g” or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

You just gave a perfect example of how to ignore an insightful teaching that eliminates the confusion this OP question was created for. I feel sorry for you.


Here it is again

click on arrow

 

[Ben12]

You just gave a perfect example of how to ignore an insightful teaching that eliminates the confusion this OP question was created for. I feel sorry for you.


Here it is again

So forget the debate; attack personnally?

 

[busterdog]

My take is that GOD is saying that these things will not exist in heaven. If GOD is saying that anyone who even thinks this way cannot be saved, then I'm in deep, deep trouble. I'm save by grave. CHRIST's blood covers me and changes my direction; however, I will not see glorification/perfection until the day I die. I still error and I still have emotions and evil thoughts do pop into my brain. I simply turn such over to GOD and not dwell on them.

I agree. MOstly what is happening is that people seem to assume that mercy is the natural order of things in this world. The Bible says that mercy is what comes of seeking God, not just because we draw breath. Mercy does not mean sin isn't sin any more.

 

[GenemZ]

So forget the debate; attack personnally?

Once more you ignore the Word of God. And take a position that one's ego hold preeminence in such matters?

Back to the real issue at hand. The OP of this thread.

"What's up with the two creation stories?
​

Passages in Chapter One frequently contain the words .... "and God saw." We do not see those words appearing in Chapter Two.


In Chapter One, we see God creating [bara]. "Bara" is a term when used this way is a feat designated solely for Deity. For, when used in this context. It meant to create something 'out from nothing.'



Note: We only see the Hebrew creation word 'bara' mentioned once in Chapter Two.

Why? Only once? In what context?

Its used to tell us that God RESTED from bara.

God rested from creating 'out from nothing' God does not "bara" in Chapter Two!

Genesis 2:3 niv
" And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating [bara] that he had done."
​

Yet, in Chapter Two, we see God still bringing things into being! Just not creating them!

Why was that?

When it says? In Chapter One? "God saw?"

God was seeing what was, yet was not yet to be seen by man's eyes. Chapter One! "And God saw it was good. "

Then, after? Chapter Two? ... God executed into motion what he had seen prior, by bringing it into the open for us to see.

In Chapter Two, God manifested how the creation he brought to being in Chapter One, was to unfold.

In doing so? In Chapter Two? God was making us retroactively, eye witnesses to the open display on earth that can be viewed by man. ... Genesis Two!


God did not bring man into being in the same manner in both chapters!

Different Hebrew words were put into motion!

In, Genesis 1:27? ...

God created man 'out from nothing.' BARA!
The INVISIBLE soul was created [bara] 'out from nothing!'
It was man's soul that was created in God's image (who can not be seen).

In, Genesis 2?

God was not creating [bara] (out from nothing) any longer. It says, he rested from such creating!

" And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating [bara] that he had done."
​

What we find in Genesis Two is the Lord providing a 'material home' for the human soul. A material body. For the souls he had created in Genesis One!

The Hebrew reveals that 'body' was not created [bara] out from nothing! It was formed and molded from what was already existing. The earth of the ground.

"From the dust of the earth."
​

The lifeless body was [yatsar] 'molded and formed' ... from what had already been created out from nothing!

"In the beginning, God created [bara] the Heavens and Earth."
​

The Lord in Genesis Two was providing a BODY for the soul. A body to make the soul that had been [bara] created 'out from nothing' a home while on earth. An earthly home so the soul could be alive to being placed into time and space.

Its the SOUL that was created in Gods image! Not our body!

God as Deity is invisible essence. The human soul was created invisible essence!

The earthly body was simply provided as to make the soul able to be made manifested in the realm of time and space. God lives in Eternity. Our soul has been designed for Eternal life! This life on earth is temporal.

Genesis One? Man's soul had been created.

The type of soul animals have was also created. All in Chapter One!

And? God rested from bara on the seventh day! So, no more God creating 'out from nothing' to be found in Chapter Two.

In Chapter Two? ... God reveals in a different order of sequence of what had already been created by God in Chapter One. They did not have to be manifested for us to see in Chapter One. God did not have to run "test models" in Chapter One. Because whatever God creates? Is perfectly done!

So, God placed what had been created in Chapter One to be later in public view, in Chapter Two.



In Chapter One? - Only, God saw!

In Chapter Two? - Now, we see it!

There are not two different accounts of creation. .

Its two accounts, revealing how the same creation unfolded!


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Scotishfury09]

Genez, that might possibly be the most eisegesis I have ever seen.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez, that might possibly be the most eisegesis I have ever seen.

If that's eisegesis? Well, everything is eisegesis, then.


I love how some who are new to theological training will throw that out when they can not grasp what is being said.

You fail to say anything other than your own opinion. You did not deal with the Hebrew I did provide.

But..... feel free to not deal with what's challenging your pre-conceived notions. Believe there are two differing creation accounts if you wish. Believe the Word of God is not what it claims to be. Fine.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[gluadys]

There are not two different accounts of creation. .

Its two accounts, revealing how the same creation unfolded!

Well, that is a contradiction in terms. "There are not two different account" "Its [sic] two accounts..."

I don't think anyone claimed the two accounts were referring to different creations. Yes, it is the same creation.

And yes, it is two accounts of the creation.

You can manipulate them interpretively all you like to render them "harmonious", but they are still two accounts. And unless you give one an interpretation not suggested by a plain reading, they are not harmonious.

 

[GenemZ]

I see that some here missed what the first post was stating.

So... For these one who do not realize what was said?

Here it is:

I urge Creationists to explain to me how they can justify two completely different accounts of creation.

First creation story - Genesis 1:1-2:4a
Second creation story - Genesis 2:4b-25

In the first creation story birds and sea creatures are made on the fifth day. Land animals are made first on the sixth day, then Human beings.
In the second creation story God forms man from the dust and decides he needs a helper so he forms all of the animals and brings them to Adam.

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Genesis 2:18-19 (NASB)

When were animals created? Before or after humans?

As I have demonstrated. Its not two different creations. Just two different accounts of the same creation; seen from different perspectives.

If someone wishes to ignore how I showed they are not in conflict? I suggest they nit pik. And, in doing so. Divert away from what I explained, so a better understanding of God's Word will not prevail.


Sad to say.. That appears to be the case at present.




In Christ, GeneZ




.

 

[cleminson]

I urge Creationists to explain to me how they can justify two completely different accounts of creation.

First creation story - Genesis 1:1-2:4a
Second creation story - Genesis 2:4b-25


In the first creation story birds and sea creatures are made on the fifth day. Land animals are made first on the sixth day, then Human beings.
In the second creation story God forms man from the dust and decides he needs a helper so he forms all of the animals and brings them to Adam.

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
Genesis 2:18-19 (NASB)

When were animals created? Before or after humans?

Is it possible that the first account of God,s recognition of mankind (not Adam) happened on the sixth "day" and the second account in Genesis 2:18-19, describes Adam as a spiritual being living in a spiritual Eden on a spiritual world that was not on this Earth. That the animals described were created by God to be spiritual helpers for Adam in Eden and were not anything to do with the animals created on the sixth "day", when Adam was still in Paradise. He fell from Paradise to this Earth after he sinned?

 

[gluadys]

I see that some here missed what the first post was stating.

Possibly yourself.

As I have demonstrated. Its not two different creations.

But the OP did not assert there were two different creations. It asserted there were two different creation stories. Two different stories can still be about the same event.

And on that, it would seem you agree with the OP:

Just two different accounts of the same creation; seen from different perspectives.

Exactly as the OP says.

Different, and even contradictory.

If someone wishes to ignore how I showed they are not in conflict?

Anyone can show they are not in conflict. It has been done many times. Point is, no one can hold to the literal meaning of both and still evade contradiction. You must move away from the literal meaning of one or both to create the proposed harmony.

On a literal basis they are contradictory.

 

[GenemZ]

Anyone can show they are not in conflict. It has been done many times. Point is, no one can hold to the literal meaning of both and still evade contradiction.

OK...I see. You choose to ignore what was given, and explained the meaning of certain Hebrew words as they appear in certain passage.

You must move away from the literal meaning of one or both to create the proposed harmony.

Slippery slope. Genesis 1 and 2 , can be taken literally. Your way, is a way of dropping the required load until carrying it over the line.

On a literal basis they are contradictory.

Fine......

Others, fortunately, do get it. Not all will, I realize. I accept that as a result of the spiritual warfare we are immersed in.






In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[cleminson]

As a fundementalist OE Creationist Theistic Evolutionist it is all so simple
All of Genesis is literal if you understand that the first three days talk about God's creation of thr original Heavens and matter. But that the first three "days" tell us about a spiritual creation of Adam before spiritual animals were created as a helpmeet for him, in a spiritual Eden. The forth "day" saw a God use that "golfball" of matter to create the whole Universe - Big Bang. Mankind was created after animals, on the sixth day. About 5800 years ago Adam sinned, died to that Paradise and fell to an Earth that God had built over about 4.5 Billion years. Whatever!

 

[gluadys]

As a fundementalist OE Creationist Theistic Evolutionist it is all so simple
All of Genesis is literal if you understand that the first three days talk about God's creation of thr original Heavens and matter. But that the first three "days" tell us about a spiritual creation of Adam before spiritual animals were created as a helpmeet for him, in a spiritual Eden. The forth "day" saw a God use that "golfball" of matter to create the whole Universe - Big Bang. Mankind was created after animals, on the sixth day. About 5800 years ago Adam sinned, died to that Paradise and fell to an Earth that God had built over about 4.5 Billion years. Whatever!

The interpretation is interesting.

But it is nowhere near what I would see as "literal".

It seems to me the some people have developed such a fetish about scripture being "literal" that they feel it necessary to promote scenarios that are far, far away from any common sense reading of the text as "literal" just because their faith would be shaken if they had to admit that their interpretation was anything but.

I prefer the honesty of admitting that I don't believe Genesis 1 or Genesis 2 are literal accounts of creation.

The interpretation you set out here is also not literal unless you change the meaning of "literal" very significantly.

Just how do you define "literal"?

 

[cleminson]

The interpretation is interesting.

But it is nowhere near what I would see as "literal".

It seems to me the some people have developed such a fetish about scripture being "literal" that they feel it necessary to promote scenarios that are far, far away from any common sense reading of the text as "literal" just because their faith would be shaken if they had to admit that their interpretation was anything but.

I prefer the honesty of admitting that I don't believe Genesis 1 or Genesis 2 are literal accounts of creation.

The interpretation you set out here is also not literal unless you change the meaning of "literal" very significantly.

Just how do you define "literal"?

My faith has stood for 35 years since I first met the Lord. It has stood for 13 yeare as a YE creationist, 22 years as an emerging OE creationist and 6 years as a Fundimentalist OE creationist with TE leanings. They are all Christian beliefs. However, if only all of the separate "flavours" would see that Adam was created as a spiritual being in a spiritual Eden. Eden has always been invisible to this Earth. I recognise that the 1st account of creation which include the first 3 "days", as the creation of God's spiritual Heaven, then a Heaven that filles our Universe that is part spirit and part physical. This place is also satans prison and contains Eden. Finally our physical Universe and our Earth. Adam was created as a mixture of God's breath and the physical matter that was created in Gen 1:1. Adam witnessed Gods whole creation from the spiritual Eden, including the full creation of our Earth and Universe, over billions of years. Adam saw it all and passed it on to his children and their children. He would have told the "Great Story" for the full 930 years of his life on this Earth and if you look at the Geneologies it was not many leaps to Moses who is supposed to have written it all down. That is what I mean by "literal".
My fear for what you believe is that if you start to relly on your own intelligence to decide which parts of Scripture are just a primitive peoples interpretation of Creation, then you open your self to Error.

I believe that Genesis lays out accuratly exactly how the whole Universe was created, not the detail, that scientists are working out. But the over all building plan is there, PLEASE let us not worship the detail.