Creationists, what's up with two creation stories?

[GenemZ]

Hi GeneZ. Thanks for the reply. I thought like you do for a long time, about the timing of Satan's fall. But in the Macro theology of my theory The Genesis Enigma, I believe that the verse you quote from in Issiah 14 "you have been cut down to the earth", means just that. God used matter to bind Satan and his fallen angels from ever entering God's purely spiritual world. This was why He created matter. Have you read my rather long paper, it explains it all there.

I agree with you that Jesus was slain before the foundations of earth because He knew that Adam would sin but I firmly believe that Satan's rebellion happened before matter was created. Every verse I have found supports this theory,including Issiah 14. If you can find a verse that does not please let me know.

Satan was cut down to earth because he lost his privileges he had before in Heaven. Before his fall, earth was a job that he commuted for. Now, on earth is where he lives. He still has access to Heaven, but no longer as he once had before living as a "son."

Revelation 2:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
"And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells."​

​

As far as I can see? Satan's home is now on this earth. He had been cast down to earth in a literal sense. Satan can never go home again. His home is no longer Heaven. Ours, is. Now he commutes to Heaven as part of his function, not the other way around, like he had before his fall.


In Christ, GeneZ



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[cleminson]

Satan was cut down to earth because he lost his privileges he had before in Heaven. Before his fall, earth was a job that he commuted for. Now, on earth is where he lives. He still has access to Heaven, but no longer as he once had before living as a "son."

As far as I can see? Satan's home is now on this earth. He had been cast down to earth in a literal sense. Satan can never go home again. His home is no longer Heaven. Ours, is. Now he commutes to Heaven as part of his function, not the other way around, like he had before his fall.​

In Christ, GeneZ



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I believe that you are right in all that you say but with a slight difference. I believe that there is a Spiritual Heaven which spacially covers the whole Universe as you do, I also believe that Satan walks to and fro on this Earth Job 1:7 and Job 2:2. Satan is used by God as a tool. He has no power over Christians and his demons are locked in chains in an invisible place that is part physical and part spiritual and somehow attached to the Universe. The third place is this Earth a purely physical place that is our home until we go to be with God.

 

[GenemZ]

I believe that you are right in all that you say but with a slight difference. I believe that there is a Spiritual Heaven which spacially covers the whole Universe as you do, I also believe that Satan walks to and fro on this Earth Job 1:7 and Job 2:2. Satan is used by God as a tool. He has no power over Christians and his demons are locked in chains in an invisible place that is part physical and part spiritual and somehow attached to the Universe. The third place is this Earth a purely physical place that is our home until we go to be with God.

Only certain demons are locked up in the Abyss. Not chains. These were not willing to abide by God's rules as Satan's appeal trial commences before the Supreme Court of Heaven.

As far as chains? That was not demons of Satan.

Jude 1:6 (New International Version)
"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."
​

Those were a few angels who fell during the days of Noah, who took women and procreated with them. They are a different category of fallen angel. They will remain locked up until judgment day.

The demons (who will be weird looking) in the Abyss will be released for a short time during the Tribulation (Revelation 9) to harm men.

Revelation 9:11(niv)
"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon."
​

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[cleminson]

Only certain demons are locked up in the Abyss. Not chains. These were not willing to abide by God's rules as Satan's appeal trial commences before the Supreme Court of Heaven.

As far as chains? That was not demons of Satan.

Jude 1:6 (New International Version)​

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." ​

​

Those were a few angels who fell during the days of Noah, who took women and procreated with them. They are a different category of fallen angel. They will remain locked up until judgment day.

The demons (who will be weird looking) in the Abyss will be released for a short time during the Tribulation (Revelation 9) to harm men.

Revelation 9:11(niv)​

"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon." ​

​

In Christ, GeneZ

I Profoundly disagree with you that only certain of the fallen angels were locked in “chains”, because 2 Peter 2:4 tells us that chains in Hell bind the fallen angels, “For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment”. Even if, as some believe that these chains are figurative, the fallen angels power has been negated; the only power they have is the power we give them through our fear and ignorance. Where do you get your doctrine that only certain of them were imprisoned?

There is overwhelming support for the fact the fallen angel were not the “sons of God”. In Hebrews 1:5 we read “For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me.” God never called any of his angels “sons” and certainly neither good nor bad, “sons”. If He does not recognize them as sons, we should be careful not to twist the Bible to suit our own theories and in doing so make them the “sons of God”.

As to the second part of your statement, I believe that as New Creatures in Christ we are not the “men” mentioned in Revelation that will be attacked as mentioned in Revelation 9. It will only be people who are not new sons of God.

 

[GenemZ]

I Profoundly disagree with you that only certain of the fallen angels were locked in “chains”, because 2 Peter 2:4 tells us that chains in Hell bind the fallen angels, “For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment”.

I do not think you understanding. I am differentiating between Satan's fallen angels, who fell when he fell (which are now commonly referred to as demons)... and the fact that certain angels fell after the fall of Satan in Noah's day. These angels found in 2 Peter 2:4 fell just before the flood of Noah.


Most of Satan's fallen angels are allowed to roam the earth to this day. The only exception were the demons who now must be locked up in the Abyss. These ones apparently were not willing to abide by God's terms God implemented while Satan is given his chance to appeal God's sentence against him.

The angels Peter speaks of were the angels who fell at the time of Noah's flood.

Genesis 6:1-3 (Young's Literal Translation)
"And it cometh to pass that mankind have begun to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters have been born to them,
and sons of God see the daughters of men that they [are] fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.


And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years."
​

Those sinful angels are not locked up in the Abyss. They are locked up in Tartarus .

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water..."
​

Jesus did not go to preach in the Abyss. He went to where the angels who fell in Noah's day are now locked up.


There is a reason for all this, but one step at a time.

Even if, as some believe that these chains are figurative, the fallen angels power has been negated; the only power they have is the power we give them through our fear and ignorance. Where do you get your doctrine that only certain of them were imprisoned?

Only certain ones have been placed where you mentioned. The Abyss is one area. And, Tartarus in another. Two different sets of fallen angels!

There is overwhelming support for the fact the fallen angel were not the “sons of God”. In Hebrews 1:5 we read “For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me.” God never called any of his angels “sons” and certainly neither good nor bad, “sons”. If He does not recognize them as sons, we should be careful not to twist the Bible to suit our own theories and in doing so make them the “sons of God”.

To the Jews, there is a difference between being The Son, and, a son. The word 'son' was a term ancients used to describe descendants along a family line. Not just an immediate offspring.

Example?

Jesus (in his humanity) was the great, great, great, great, grandson of David.. through Mary.

Yet? Jesus was called by Jews, the "son of David." By Jews who knew the prophesy concerning David's promised royal line.

Matthew 1:1a (niv)
"A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David."
​

The Jews who were awaiting for the promised one to sit on the throne of David, knew this!

Matthew 9:27 (New International Version)
"As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David!"
​

So? To the Jews? The term 'son' could hold various meanings. As far as angels? They were "sons of God." But as far as the Lord? He is God's ONLY Son. There's the rub.

John 3:16 (New International Version)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
​

1 John 4:9 (New International Version)
" This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."


​

God's angels were called 'sons of God.' The Lord Jesus Christ? Was called 'The ONLY Son of God.'

We have to be taught to learn to think like the ancients if we are to better understand what the Bible is telling us. You agree?



Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[cleminson]

I do not think you understanding. I am differentiating between Satan's fallen angels, who fell when he fell (which are now commonly referred to as demons)... and the fact that certain angels fell after the fall of Satan in Noah's day. These angels found in 2 Peter 2:4 fell just before the flood of Noah.

The angels Peter speaks of were the angels who fell at the time of Noah's flood.

Those sinful angels are not locked up in the Abyss. They are locked up in Tartarus .

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)​

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water..." ​

​

Jesus did not go to preach in the Abyss. He went to where the angels who fell in Noah's day are now locked up.

Only certain ones have been placed where you mentioned. The Abyss is one area. And, Tartarus in another. Two different sets of fallen angels!


We have to be taught to learn to think like the ancients if we are to better understand what the Bible is telling us. You agree?

.​

I agree with a great deal of what you say but I disagree with you when you say that there are fallen angels that are not locked in Tartarus. Only Satan can walk around on this Earth and he can only trouble Christians minds. If we choose to listen to him. The 2Peter 2:4-5 scripture that you quoted from, "For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;" Firstly speaks of all the fallen angels being locked up: there was no second rebellion in Heaven.The second rebellion spoken about in 2 Peter 2:5, speaks of the rebellious sons of Adam ie the sons of God.

God never allowed any of his angels to be called "sons". In Hebrews 1:5 we read “For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me.” God never called any of his angels “sons” and certainly neither good or bad, “sons”. If He does not recognize them as sons, we should be careful not to twist the Bible to suit our own theories and in doing so make them the “sons of God”.
​

I believe that the “sons of God” were not Angels or fallen angels but came from Seth, who came from Adam, the first son of God, who was formed from a mixture of “God’s breath” and the “dust of the earth” the “Adamah” in Hebrew.

 

[GenemZ]

I agree with a great deal of what you say but I disagree with you when you say that there are fallen angels that are not locked in Tartarus. Only Satan can walk around on this Earth and he can only trouble Christians minds. If we choose to listen to him. ​

How can Satan be all over the earth? You mean that Satan could inspire the thinking of Hitler and Stalin at the same time?

Matthew 9:34 (New International Version)
"But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."
​

Satan is not the Prince of Demons?



Who is the prince of demons, then? Who was Jesus casting out? Satan himself? Or, demons?

God never allowed any of his angels to be called "sons". In Hebrews 1:5 we read “For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”?

.


Been through this before.. Jesus is God the Father's ONLY SON. Angels are offspring through Christ, not from the Father directly! They are sons in a different sense. Jesus was called the son of David. Yet, David was not directly his father! Remember the senses in that the Jews could use the word "son?"


All things CREATED have been created by and for the Son of God!

Colossians 1:16 (New International Version)
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."
​

The Son of God was not created!

He had to be existing eternally before all things were created, to create all things! He was uniquely begotten directly by the Father! Before creation existed! He was eternally begotten.

The Son is God. Not a creation! Yet, his essence of Deity is manifested to us by means of the medium of what was created (his humanity).


Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[cleminson]

How can Satan be all over the earth? You mean that Satan could inspire the thinking of Hitler and Stalin at the same time?
​

Satan is not omnipresent

Matthew 9:34 (New International Version)​

"But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."​

​

Satan is not the Prince of Demons? ​

Who is the prince of demons, then? Who was Jesus casting out? Satan himself? Or, demons? ​

I believe that Satan is Prince of Deamons or fallen angel whatever you want to call them.

Been through this before.. Jesus is God the Father's ONLY SON. Angels are offspring through Christ, not from the Father directly! They are sons in a different sense. Jesus was called the son of David. Yet, David was not directly his father! Remember the senses in that the Jews could use the word "son?"

Jesus is God, in His physical form and Angels were certainly NOT his offspring. They were created for His pleasure. So the fallen angels were NOT the sons of God mentioned in the Bible. The sons of God were of the family of Adam and Christians are now the new sons of God.

All things CREATED have been created by and for the Son of God! ​

Colossians 1:16 (New International Version)​

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.​

"​

The Son of God was not created!
​

He had to be existing eternally before all things were created, to create all things! He was uniquely begotten directly by the Father! Before creation existed! He was eternally begotten.
​

The Son is God. Not a creation! Yet, his essence of Deity is manifested to us by means of the medium of what was created (his humanity). ​

Hear Hear

Grace and peace, GeneZ​

In Christ, GeneZ

.​

I will get this quote rhing right one day, my reply is in red.

 

[GenemZ]

[/color]

I will get this quote rhing right one day, my reply is in red.

You noticed how the thread stopped. I hope this is clear enough for you...


What you need to so is to simply highlight what you want to quote from the other's post, and then click on an icon in the bar above the screen you are making the post in.

Look for the icon to the right side. Is square with slightly rounded corners with a little funnel coming down from the bottom right. Its a parchment colored with what appears to be tiny text. If you put you mouse over it, it will say "WRAP [quote tags] tags around selected text."

If you highlight what you want quoted from, and then click on that icon? It will create a quote wrap.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



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[cleminson]

I do not think you understanding. I am differentiating between Satan's fallen angels, who fell when he fell (which are now commonly referred to as demons)... and the fact that certain angels fell after the fall of Satan in Noah's day. These angels found in 2 Peter 2:4 fell just before the flood of Noah.


Most of Satan's fallen angels are allowed to roam the earth to this day. The only exception were the demons who now must be locked up in the Abyss. These ones apparently were not willing to abide by God's terms God implemented while Satan is given his chance to appeal God's sentence against him.

The angels Peter speaks of were the angels who fell at the time of Noah's flood.

Genesis 6:1-3 (Young's Literal Translation)​

​

And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years."



​

Those sinful angels are not locked up in the Abyss. They are locked up in Tartarus .

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New International Version)​

​

​

Jesus did not go to preach in the Abyss. He went to where the angels who fell in Noah's day are now locked up.


There is a reason for all this, but one step at a time.

Only certain ones have been placed where you mentioned. The Abyss is one area. And, Tartarus in another. Two different sets of fallen angels!



To the Jews, there is a difference between being The Son, and, a son. The word 'son' was a term ancients used to describe descendants along a family line. Not just an immediate offspring.

Example?

Jesus (in his humanity) was the great, great, great, great, grandson of David.. through Mary.

Yet? Jesus was called by Jews, the "son of David." By Jews who knew the prophesy concerning David's promised royal line.

Matthew 1:1a (niv)

​

The Jews who were awaiting for the promised one to sit on the throne of David, knew this!

Matthew 9:27 (New International Version)​

​

​

So? To the Jews? The term 'son' could hold various meanings. As far as angels? They were "sons of God." But as far as the Lord? He is God's ONLY Son. There's the rub.

John 3:16 (New International Version)​

1 John 4:9 (New International Version)​

​

God's angels were called 'sons of God.' The Lord Jesus Christ? Was called 'The ONLY Son of God.' ​

We have to be taught to learn to think like the ancients if we are to better understand what the Bible is telling us. You agree? ​

Grace and peace, GeneZ​

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Hi GeneZ, I agree that Jesus is the Son of God and we are sons of God and I do understand the difference and therefore what you are trying to get across to me. BUT I find nowhere in Scripture an account that tells us that there were two rebellions in Heaven. One when Satan rebelled and one when angels lusted after women, they could not because Angels do not need to procreate.

The first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus’ quoted in his history of the Jewish people, “The Antiquities of the Jews”, says, “Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers, and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed to them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness; whereby they made God to be their enemy, for many angels of God accompanied with women and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians called giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land”. In a way this supports your theory, however.

The second Jewish theory seems to have appeared some time in the second century, when Scholarly Jews decided that “the sons of God” were the sons of pre-Flood rulers or magistrates. In the same century, Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai cursed those Jews who believed that the angels were the “sons of God” and were responsible for bringing the nephilim and the rest of the “sons of God” into this world.
His interpretation was widely believed right through the Middle Ages to modern times but most modern rabbinical scholars reject Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai’s theory. I think that Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai’s supposition could be more accurate than other perspectives. The pre-flood rulers or the sons of Adam, could have been the sons of God.

We have the New Testament and the Jews that wrote it clearly believed that Angels were not called sons by God, for in Hebrews 1:5 we read "For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You”?

I believe that the sons of God were the decendants of Adam, a very special people.

 

[cleminson]

I believe there are two Adams in Genesis; one made after God’s image (spirit) and one who God changed to a living soul and later carnal flesh.

Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Then in the next chapter and who how short or long this period is:
Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Then we get the deep sleep:
Gen: 2:21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat

I totally agree with you.

 

[GenemZ]

I believe there are two Adams in Genesis; one made after God’s image (spirit) and one who God changed to a living soul and later carnal flesh.

Not two Adam's. Two phases in bringing Adam into being into the material world.


Genesis 1 - deals with the CREATION (bara) of the soul, out from nothing.


Genesis 2 - deals with providing a BODY which was molded and formed (yatsar) for that soul.


The Hebrew text reveals different things going on. The English does as well, but we tend to blur meanings together (create - make - form ,etc.) and miss what is being said.




Grace and peace, GeneZ






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[cleminson]

[/bible]

Not two Adam's. Two phases in bringing Adam into being into the material world.

Genesis 1 - deals with the CREATION (bara) of the soul, out from nothing.
Genesis 2 - deals with providing a BODY which was molded and formed (yatsar) for that soul.
The Hebrew text reveals different things going on. The English does as well, but we tend to blur meanings together (create - make - form ,etc.) and miss what is being said.

Grace and peace, GeneZ



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You are right that it is not the account of two Adams but I believe that Genesis 1 gives us the account of the creation of MANKIND during the sixth period of creation (Yom). I believe that Genesis 2 tells us of the spiritual creation of the partly spiritual ADAM in the partly spiritual Paradise of Eden, that took place during the third period of creation (Yom) and before our physical Universe was created. I also believe that Genesis 5 tells us of Adam's creation as a human, arriving on our Earth as a fallen being, onto a Planet that was already populated with humans, but also in the sixth period of creation (Yom).

I find your Hebrew inserts interesting and with your permission will include them into my paper The Genesis Enigma.