-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Creationists, what do the worlds universities know that creationists don't?
- Thread starter wensdee
- Start date
Of course you have it backwards. You have presented no actual evidence for a global flood because there is none and there is nothing irrelevant about the many falsifications of the myth of a global flood that I have presented.
The global flood is falsified by geology, paleonotology, biodiversity, genetic diversity, biogeography and archeology and probably other branches of science as well. It was falsified more than 150 years ago and huge masses of data accumulated since then have only reinforced that falsification.
The idea that all the peoples and animals on earth are the descendants of survivors of a global flood that came off a big boat together in the Middle East about 5,000 years ago is so totally and absolutely absurd that it is astonishing to me that anyone can believe it in this day and age. The YEC claim that the earth's geology and paleontology is mostly the result of the this same flood on an earth that is less than 10,000 years old is also totally absurd to anyone who knows anything about either geology, paleontology or astronomical sciences or even basic physics and has the least bit of capability to think logically about the subject.
As I said this is only a partial list
Falsifications of the Worldwide Flood
You are forced to say they are irrelevant because there is no way for you to refute any of them let alone all of them.
Upvote
0
Greg1234
In the beginning was El
That's inaccurate. One example was given multiple times.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7546736-15/#post57388850
Evidence for the flood isn't primarily found in the geological column. The pyramids of Giza, Yucatan and other momuments erected already testify to that event.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7546736-15/#post57389209
http://www.christianforums.com/t7546736-16/#post57389411
Actually many cultures show this, as seen in aforementioned monuments built around the world based on a similar outline.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7546736-15/#post57389180
Actually they reaffirm the flood. In geology you can find references to "when the earth was divided", paleontology is irrelevant for now, biogeography to a certain extent through the dispersion of similar Pyramid cultures practically worlds apart in the Yucatan and Giza, biodiversity is irrelevant, archeology through the discovery of the aforementioned structures plus more. I don't find any refutation there.
The Adamic root race. Other Flood of Noah Survivors
There are in fact portions of the earth with the lasting impression of that event.
Evidence for the flood is not primarily found in the geological column.
Irrelevant and unrelated to the flood.
You're a Young Man Darwinist. Calm down.
I wouldn't matter if it was the whole list.
No, I had you say that it was irrelevant.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7546736-17/#post57389872
It wasn't exactly a global fire, that is not everything burned, it was 65 million years ago not 4,500 years ago and it did reduce biodiversity. There was a major extinction event at the time.
Upvote
0
You have stated this wrong. There is NO evidence for a global flood in the geologic column.
This unsupported claim is absurd. How do these monuments "testify to a global flood".
There are only so many ways you can build really large structures from stone but if you look at them closely you will some pretty significant differences between structures in South America and those in Egypt for example and they are in no way evidence for a global flood.
I already explained that there has been more than one supercontinent in the history of the earth and it is easy to show that a rapid division of the continents would release enough heat to sterilize the earth many times over.
Why?
As I explained before the pyramids have nothing to do with the falsification of the flood by biogeography. A falsification neither you nor any other creationist can refute.
Another attempt to dismiss a falsification you can't refute.
As I pointed out before Archeology shows that cultures have been developing all over the world for 10s of thousands of years with no evidence of interuption by a global flood.
Only because you refuse to look.
This nonsense is only evidence of the fact that creationists can come up with a virtually endless supply of nonsense (Added in Edit: though I suppose you could consider it evidence that even a literal interpretation of the Bible could allow for the flood to be only local. There is no falsification of a local flood. If you want to claim the flood was a very localized event we will have no problem but I don't think that is what you want to claim. )
Only in the imagination of some creationists.
There is NO evidence of a global flood in the geologic column.
I am glad you think that 65 years old is young. I wouldn't call myself a Darwinist and the flood is easily falsified without any reference to Darwin or evolution.
It is clear that you don't dare let yourself actually think about any of the many Falsification of the Global Flood that have so often been discussed on this board. You are forced to say they are irrelevant because you can't refute them.
What I said was irrelevant is the occurance of widespread forest fires that apparently took place after the Chicxulub impact 65 million years ago and your claim that this is some related to the global flood myth. I also said.
I have already explained how you have failed to refute even the relatively few falsifications of the flood brought up here. Simply repeating that they are not falsifications does not make it so. To accept the flood myth you must reject the results of archeology, biogeography, geology, paleontology and genetic diversity studies in favor of an ancient Hebrew retelling of an even more ancient Sumerian myth.
This statement is still true and there is certainly nothing in the post I am replying to here that challenges it in any way. In fact you have just reaffirmed it.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
J
Jazer
Guest
That is all evolutionists do is argue against each other. There would be no theory of evolution without that process. What amuses me is the evolutionists that have to make it clear that they are not creationists. Because the arguement they present for evolution supports creationism so much.
Upvote
0
Sounds like ad populum, "no true Scotsman", and ad hominem.
The reason the universities teach evolution as a fact is of course because as far as science is concerned it is a fact.
Upvote
0
The reason universities teach evolution as a fact is of course because all the evidence points to evolution being a fact.
You are entitled to believe what you want about anything but if you want other people to believe as you do it always helps [unless those other people are as thick as planks] to provide evidence that what you want them to believe is true.
Religions and the belief in Gods have nothing to do with truth, religions and Gods are based on emotions, fear and nothing else, if you ever stopped believing in your God your God would disappear, how real is that?
Upvote
0
As someone who teaches in a university I should point out that evolution is not taught as fact (or at least it shouldn't be). The facts that overwhelmingly point to common descent are taught so it is fair to say that common descent is taught as a scientific fact and evolution is taught as the theory that explains the fact of common descent. As already pointed there are some fundamentalist schools that teach creationism so perhaps you should have said nearly all university, including most universities with religious affiliations teach evolutionary theory.
Upvote
0
I've yet to see any scientist prove that the world is, in fact, objective and repeatable. If not, they have no basis to reject as truth the subjective evidence that people usually claim as proof for God, and no reason to expect the people who believe in God to restrict themselves to only objective and repeatable evidence.
I've yet to see any scientist show that science has anything to do with truth either. Especially since science rejects subjective, non-repeatable data as false data without justifying that restriction.
Science is a search for "objective, repeatable truth" or perhaps "useful truth", but like everyone else there is no way to claim it is the absolute truth. This is necessarily such because the only thing that can be shown to be true is a tautology, but that is not very useful so we presume various other axioms on top of what is known to be true.
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
What is vaguely entertaining is to see how a creationist such as yourself has zero to say that is real, anything you can say against evolution or so-called "evolutionists" is falsehood, something you just make up.
Upvote
0
Greg1234
In the beginning was El
The deaths resulting from a cataclysmic event, even if only one organism dies, will inevitably allow that organism or organisms to be deposited into the earth. It doesn't matter whether it is distinctive or not. The fact is evidence for the flood is not primarily found in the geological column.
This was already given, dispersion.
Actually the purposes are the same and the means or the technology required also stem from a common root. These are articles of technology which would have been foriegn to indigenous populatuins as advancements in Egypt and the like were progressing at a faster rate than around he world, both spiritually and mentally. Noah is described as a "perfect" man or from that stock. The culture shock brought on by such a race being introduced in alternate sectors would result from the higher faculties which they possessed. Their trails are marked by the seemingly daunting task of moving and cutting rock which would be impossible or near impossible to move or cut even using today's technology. It doesn't stop at the Pyramid and a measure of discernment needs to be employed. The activities revealed on Puma Punku also testify to to that event. As a result of such a shock or influx, some have attributed this soley to aliens forgetting about that "perfect race". That it is evidence for the flood event, is fact, provided that one knows what he is looking at.
The time will come for that.
No the Great Pyramid does not falsify the flood.
You refuted it for me. I specifically asked you about biogeography. You'll get it.
As pointed out before, the cultures in various constituents were interrupted.
First you would need to explain why a local meteor strike is referred to as a global fire. Then you'll get it.
This wasn't a reference to your age.
It's quite clear by now how much this means to you.
No, you said biogeography and biodiversity were irrelevant in light of global fires for the reasons given.
Upvote
0
You gave no evidence you just made an unsupported assertion.
Introduced to whom? In your myth the 8 ark surviors are the only people in the entire world after the flood. (Unless you want to go back to a local flood model)
Scientists have a pretty good idea of how the pyramids were built and the Egyptian pyramids were quite different from those built by the Aztecs and the Mayas.
How were the Pyramids built
This is just nonsense.
So you are going to attempt to explain paleontology at some point. I can hardly wait.
I didn't say it did but Egyptian civilization had been developing for thousands of years before the first dynasty was formed and the building of the pyramids, starting with the step pyramid of Dosier built in the third dynasty around 2600 BC predates the date most creationist give for the flood. If there was a flood at that time it must have been local because the Egyptians did not experience it. They just kept on keeping on building pyramids and other monuments.
I did not. You clearly don't understand the biogeography argument if you think I did. Read first few posts on the Biogeography Thread.
You have claimed it but there is no evidence of this supposed interruption.
I have explained this several times. Tectite falls from the meteor strike may have ignited fires all around the globe 65 million years ago. That does not mean that everything burned or that all surface life was destroyed.
This is false and you know it. I said the fact that there may have been forest fires all over the world 65 million years ago and that there was a mass extinction event 65 million years ago is irrelevant to agruments about a global flood less than 5000 years ago.
Upvote
0
Try and imagine what their training must have been like to allow them to do that while keeping a straight face and still live with themselves? how are they able to fool themselves about so much?
I say straight faced but I don't think I have ever actually met a creationist, perhaps when Americans are away from America they don't readily say that they are religious especially creationist, after all who would understand?
"are you saying that you believe that the WHOLE Bible is true, Adam and Eve, the flood? who told you that and what would make you believe them?".
When we look back at the brain washing techniques used by the Russians we realise they knew absolutely nothing about the subject, admittedly they were trying to do it on a much shorted time scale than creationists but the creationist way has been shown to be much more effective than the Russians could ever have imagined.
Upvote
0
Here in the usa, its real easy to meet them. Even if you dont want to.
i sat on an airplane from Chicago to LA with one. Long flight. Thee only thing I remember from that awful trip was him saying that noahs ark is buried in a glacier, and every so often the ice cracks open,you can see it, and then it closes again. That is why sightings have been reported as far back as at least Marco Polos time.
Now, either he made that up or someone else did, and he just repeated without the intervention of a cc of grey matter. Did he care if it was true?
i tried telling him that as glaciers can move as much as 30 meters per day, a 6000 yr old item in a glacier would likely be carried out by now; that anything in a glaciers is utterly shredded by the internal movements; that if his story were so that.... etc.
Nope.
i honestly dont get it how people can read a book where their god says
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
and then just recklessly go about making up nonsense, and presenting it as true.
I really dont understand it.
Upvote
0
Greg1234
In the beginning was El
That's incorrect. Read the quote again.
This was detailed in the last post even with a link provided.
What local flood model? You still can't explain why you call a local meteor strike a global fire? When you do, you will find the irrelevance in attempting to call the flood a "local" flood.
This is merely one out of dozens "ideas" about how the GP was built none of which adequately explains it nor the various other mega-structures lke those at Puma Punku,. Methods which all stem from the same cultural root. The ramp theory is inadequate and doesn't even begin to explain how the blocks were placed.
Egyptian Pyramids | Building the Pyramids
Moving the block was one thing but placing it into position was another. This idea has also left scientists baffled. The most common theory for placement of each stone is said to have a ramp that went around the Pyramid's sides. Some have concluded that the ramp only touched one side of the pyramid. This might have been true, but the ramp might have had more material than the pyramid did and this would have made placement of each block difficult.
Further, the methods to move these massive blocks are just a fraction of the indicators. They were mathematically and geologically more advanced than what they should have been. Here are some quick facts,
Great Pyramid
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The error from true north is about 1/12 of a degree and what is even more astounding is that this orientation was done without a compass, which was not invented until the 1500 years after the Messiah's birth. Now you may wonder if the perfect aligning to the four points of the compass was a coincidence or was this purposed and planned in the design. Some believe that the pyramid was built about 4000 years before the birth of the Messiah.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]For the Great Pyramid to be perfectly aligned with the four cardinal points on the compass means that the builder either had some way of determining directions or that neither the Egyptians nor any human designed it. Other dimensions of the Great Pyramid show that it was literally impossible for Egyptians or any other humans to have designed or built it.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The Great Pyramid is one of the heaviest structures on earth and could not be built anywhere. The architect had to pick a site that could withstand the weight of the Great Pyramid. How this knowledge was obtained no one knows. In short, the builders of the Great Pyramid had to be some of the best world geologists to be able to pick the site.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The Great Pyramid is located in the center of all the landmasses (see diagram on p. 31). Many pyramidologists believe that the meridian line running north and south on the globe passing through the Pyramid (31 degree East of Greenwich) should be the zero line of the whole world. By drawing a horizontal line through the pyramid one can see the pyramid is the center of the landmasses. Again one sees that the architect of the Pyramid had to know the location in advance and it has only been in the last 100 years that men have had these capabilities.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]For the Great Pyramid to be perfectly aligned with the four cardinal points on the compass means that the builder either had some way of determining directions or that neither the Egyptians nor any human designed it. Other dimensions of the Great Pyramid show that it was literally impossible for Egyptians or any other humans to have designed or built it.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The Great Pyramid is one of the heaviest structures on earth and could not be built anywhere. The architect had to pick a site that could withstand the weight of the Great Pyramid. How this knowledge was obtained no one knows. In short, the builders of the Great Pyramid had to be some of the best world geologists to be able to pick the site.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The Great Pyramid is located in the center of all the landmasses (see diagram on p. 31). Many pyramidologists believe that the meridian line running north and south on the globe passing through the Pyramid (31 degree East of Greenwich) should be the zero line of the whole world. By drawing a horizontal line through the pyramid one can see the pyramid is the center of the landmasses. Again one sees that the architect of the Pyramid had to know the location in advance and it has only been in the last 100 years that men have had these capabilities.
[/FONT]
As expected, Here you go, take a crash course.
YouTube - Great Pyramids vs Puma Punku
For what reason?
The dating of the Great Pyramid is inaccurate and multiple factors are not taken into consideration. Erosion is just one.
The Great pyramid - When was it Built
The debate over when the Giza complex was constructed is still ongoing. Erosion patterns from the Sphinx enclosure suggest a far older date than subscribed by Egyptologists and there are several at Giza discoveries from before the 4th dynasty that clearly suggest the complex was in use before the pyramids are said to have built.
I understand the biogeography argument. I will ask you this though, if there was a global fire, why doesn't biogeography falsify that event? Answer that and you'll find the irrelevance in attempting to apply it to the global flood.
Actually this was repeatably given where the various cultures did experience an influx due to the integration of that "perfect race" based on the flood event.
And in doing so, agreeing that biogeography plays no role in explaining the problems associated with the population of various geographic areas. In other words, it is irrelevant, just like in your attempt at falsifying the flood event.
It is not in mapping the global fire to the global flood we find the similarity but in the relevance of biogeography and biodiversity in falsifying either global event.
Upvote
0
Split Rock
Conflation of Blathers
If we do not discuss theories and hypotheses, there is no scientific progress. Therefore, yes, you are correct.
How does the evidence for evolution support creationism? Or better yet, what evidence would not support creationism, in your opinion?
Upvote
0
Split Rock
Conflation of Blathers
I don't know what more you want to "prove" that the world is objective and repeatable. All our science and the technology based on that science demonstrate this. Scientists don't expect everyone to restict themselves to only objective and repeatable evidence, unless it deals with the physical world. This does not include God.
Science is not a tool for determining "truth" in the absolute sense. Science rejects subjective, non-repeatable data as useless to science (i.e. to the study of the physical world), not necessarily as false.
That is why we do not claim knowledge of "absolute truth." We leave that to creationists.
Upvote
0
I have explained many times that the Chicxulub strike started fires all around the world because of hot material from the ejecta plume. A model of the hot ejecta fall the places fires probably started (wherever the ejecta fall was over land) is below from Here.
You can see that while the fires are all around the globe the entire earth is not on fire. This event did cause mass extinctions, especially of large land animals 65 million years ago but it is not analogous to the mythical global flood which supposedly killed all land breathing life everywhere, that was not on the ark. It did reduce biodiversity but would not have restricted surviving species to only 2 or 6 individuals and it would have left many surviving species scattered around the earth to evolve into new life forms over the 65 million years that have intervened since. Your arguments based on the so-called global fires after the Chicxulub impact are totally bogus and I see no need to address them further.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Similar threads
