Creationists should abstain

[Assyrian]

Whatever happened to "I am who I am"?

 

[theIdi0t]

If you look at the very name of God, first revealed in Exodus, YHWH, you have the representation of the crucifixion, "Hands Behold, Nails Behold." Since the Old T. existed prior to Jesus, and since the Old T. has been preserved by Jews since Jesus, you wonder what kind of Jewish human being it was that dreamed up this particular man-made conspiracy. Or was it simply the Holy Ghost?

Inerrancy rejectors, take notice. And have a caution.

I don't get it?



How do you have a representation of the crucifixion in the very name of God, "YHWH"?

 

[busterdog]

Whatever happened to "I am who I am"?

Huh?

"I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."

Or did you mean something else?



(The Hebrew letters also have a pictorial or iconographic value, as well as numerical and phonetic value.) http://www.returntogod.com/Pamphlets/alefbet.pdf

Not a proof text for inerrancy, but a pretty stange "encoded" prophecy, hard to pin on creative writing alone.

 

[theIdi0t]

Huh?


(The Hebrew letters also have a pictorial or iconographic value, as well as numerical and phonetic value.) http://www.returntogod.com/Pamphlets/alefbet.pdf

Not a proof text for inerrancy, but a pretty stange "encoded" prophecy, hard to pin on creative writing alone.

Well, perhaps better research would do, instead of believing the first things that passes in the wind:

He (Hay):

may have three possible meanings:

-A preposition meaning "the", "that", or "who" (as in "A boy who reads"). For example, yeled - a boy, Hayeled - the boy.

-A prefix indicating that the sentence is a question. (For example, Yadata - You knew, Hayadata? - Did you know?)

-A suffix after place names indicating movement towards the given noun. (For example, Yerushalayim - Jerusalem, Yerushalaymah - towards Jerusalem.)

In Judaism
He is often used to represent the name of God, as He stands for Hashem, which means The Name and is a way of saying 'God' without actually saying the name of God. In print, Hashem is usually written as He with a chupchik: 'ה.
At the seder, during Yachatz there is a tradition to break the matzah into the shape of the letter He.

Waw (Vav):

-Vav at the beginning of the word has several possible meanings:
Vav Conjunctive, when a vav connects two words or parts of a sentence; it is a grammatical conjunction meaning 'and' . This is the most common usage.

-Vav Consecutive (Vav Hahipuch, literally "the Vav of Reversal")- mainly biblical, commonly mistaken for the previous type of vav; it indicates consequence of actions and reverses the tense of the verb following it:

when placed in front of a verb in the future tense, it changes the verb to the past tense. For example, yomar means 'he will say' and vayomar means 'he said';

when placed in front of a verb in the past tense, it changes the verb to the future tense. For example, ahavtah means 'you loved', and ve'ahavtah means 'you will love'.

Yodh (Yod):

Two yodhs in a row designate the name of God Adonai and in pointed texts are written with the vowels of Adonai; this is done as well with the Tetragrammaton.

As Yodh is the smallest letter, much kabbalistic and mystical significance is attached to it. According to the Gospel of Matthew Jesus mentioned it during the Antithesis of the Law when he says: "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Jot, or iota, refers to the letter Yodh; it was often overlooked by scribes because of its size and position as a mater lectiones. In modern Hebrew, the phrase "tip of the Yodh" refers to a small and insignificant thing, and someone who "worries about the tip of a Yodh" is someone who is picky and meticulous about small details.

Much kabbalistic and mystical significance is also attached to it because of its gematria value as ten, which is an important number in Judaism, and its place in the name of God. See The Mystical Significance of the Hebrew Letters - Yodh

But there is some support that :"Yodh is thought to have originated with a pictograph of a hand (in Modern Hebrew and Modern Arabic, yad). It may be related to the Egyptian hieroglyphic of an arm"

(source: wikipedia)

You should be have been suspicious when you heard "some meanings" of the words, it usually gives you some clues to stretching, like "and" becoming "behold", etc...

(on a side note, just because you don't believe in an inerrant bible (which is even harder to buy than yecism, In fact I know many YECs/OEC who find the belief in an inerrant Bible to be nonsense.) this does not mean that you don't believe in OT prophecies of the Messiah, etc. So, if YHWH did contain some sort of prophecy for Christ (which it doesn't), it does nothing for advocating an inerrant Bible.)

Here's something priceless.

Proof mankind is in the image of God:

"When the four Hebrew letters for Yahweh are arranged vertically, with yod at the top, then hey, then vav, and then hey, they form a pictograph of a person. The yod forming the head, the first hey forming the arms, the vav representing the trunk, and the final hey representing the legs. This pictorially illustrates that mankind was indeed formed in the image of God."

 

[Assyrian]

The Hebrew alphabet originally came from pictographs, aleph ox, bet house, gimel camel etc, which is what the returntogod list seems to be based on. Which raises question about the claim that 'hay' means behold or to reveal. It isn't an object that the original letter was a drawing of, it is an abstract verb. Nor is there any obvious connection between the 'arms extended' symbol and the concept of 'behold or to reveal'. (Except in the you should have seen the one that got away sense.)

According to wiki, there seem to have been two different forms of this letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_%28letter%29
There was an ancient form in proto west Semitic hillul meaning rejoice (proto charismatic) which was replaced by another form in Phoenician in Aramaic and eventually הin the familiar Hebrew script. The meaning of this pictogram was a window or lattice. Window, lattice or another form of house seem to be the standard meanings attached to the pictogram. Compare the ISBE's hê = house or Faucett's He[h] ( ה ), a lattice. According to
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/alphabet.htm he: window or lattice.

What I found fascinating about your used of this hidden bible code to demonstrate inerrancy was the way it completely abandoned the literal explanation of God's name that God gives us. Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Ironic or what.

 

[theIdi0t]

The Hebrew alphabet originally came from pictographs, aleph ox, bet house, gimel camel etc, which is what the returntogod list seems to be based on.

So the whole thing is based on what the pictures look like, rather than the meaning of the words?

I was confused at how they determined Vav (Waw) to mean nail?

Vav signifies a nail, peg, or hook.

Is it because the pictograph resembles a hook, and hooks are similar to nails?

What I found fascinating about your used of this hidden bible code to demonstrate inerrancy was the way it completely abandoned the literal explanation of God's name that God gives us. Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."

Are you saying YHWH literally means I AM WHO I AM?

 

[Melethiel]

It is my understanding that YHVH is a verb, roughly meaning "He is."

And, any interpretations based on the square script (derived from Aramaic) don't make any sense to me, because Moses would have used a form of cuneiform.

 

[Floodnut]

SHOULD it be shut down? NO. But it will be, now that we are not even allowed to declare in the Creationist Forum that Evolution is a LIE. It will be when Creationist who respond to attacks are accused of BAITING. It will simply cease to exist now that rulings constantly favor the mockers who attack and ridicule Creationism. Now that double speak has declared that EVOLUTION is Creation, for all practical purposes it is over. Even the thread on IMPACTS from a Creationist perspective has been invaded by those who don't believe in Creation or the World wide FLood. SO in effect it HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN. Creationist will not continue to come. They will find safer places. Even their desire for a "safe place" is ridiculed and attacked, with complete immunity from censure.

 

[busterdog]

The Hebrew alphabet originally came from pictographs, aleph ox, bet house, gimel camel etc, which is what the returntogod list seems to be based on. Which raises question about the claim that 'hay' means behold or to reveal. It isn't an object that the original letter was a drawing of, it is an abstract verb. Nor is there any obvious connection between the 'arms extended' symbol and the concept of 'behold or to reveal'. (Except in the you should have seen the one that got away sense.)

According to wiki, there seem to have been two different forms of this letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_%28letter%29
There was an ancient form in proto west Semitic hillul meaning rejoice (proto charismatic) which was replaced by another form in Phoenician in Aramaic and eventually ?in the familiar Hebrew script. The meaning of this pictogram was a window or lattice. Window, lattice or another form of house seem to be the standard meanings attached to the pictogram. Compare the ISBE's hê = house or Faucett's He[h] ( ? ), a lattice. According to
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/alphabet.htm he: window or lattice.

What I found fascinating about your used of this hidden bible code to demonstrate inerrancy was the way it completely abandoned the literal explanation of God's name that God gives us. Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Ironic or what.

Never happened.

Yod is hand. Look it up.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=yod+hand+window+hebrew&btnG=Google+Search

 

[Assyrian]

And, any interpretations based on the square script (derived from Aramaic) don't make any sense to me, because Moses would have used a form of cuneiform.

No it comes from a much older form of the script.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Canaanite_alphabet
You can click on individual letters to look at the history and variations.

So the whole thing is based on what the pictures look like, rather than the meaning of the words?

Both. Aleph seems originally to have been a drawing of an eleph an ox (Strongs 504) the hieroglyph for ox was

Beth or bayith means house (Strongs 1004) though the drawing was somewhat obscure though the hieroglyph version is . (They seem more connected if you think in terms or writing right to left.)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Bronze_Age_alphabets

I was confused at how they determined Vav (Waw) to mean nail?

Is it because the pictograph resembles a hook, and hooks are similar to nails? ו

Looks like a floor brad to me


The word vav וו was the Hebrew word for hook or nail, You find it in Exodus where it refers to the hooks used to hold the the curtains in the tabernacle http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H02053&Version=kjv

Are you saying YHWH literally means I AM WHO I AM?

No, rather the explanation of the name was I AM WHO I AM.

 

[Assyrian]

Never happened.

What never happened?

Yod is hand. Look it up.

No problem with yod being hand. It was originally picture of a hand or arm and yad is Hebrew for hand. The problem I have is with the claim hay/heh means 'behold' or 'to reveal'.

The letters did have a meaning originally. They were pictograms. However when people go beyond the orignal historical meanings of the letters, and develop a whole other cryptography on new meanings assigned to the alphabet, I have two very big problems. (1) There seems to be no solid basis for the extra meanings. (2) They seem to be in very occult company. Just look at the links your google search threw up.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=yod+hand+window+hebrew&btnG=Google+Search

What I got from that link was

THE ALEPH-BETH: ATTRIBUTIONS (YETZIRATIC, TAROT AND SEPHIROTIC ...
HEH the window reminds us that the light reaches us through understanding. ... YOD the creative and directive hand (euphemism for sperm), which sets things ...
www.skepticfiles.org/mys1/alephbet.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Lion of God - David Bruce Clark
Yod or yud was anciently portrayed as a symbol of a hand [yad in Hebrew]. ... either as a person standing with uplifted arms, or as an open window. ...
www.lionofgod.com/view_article.php?id=21 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

The first says:

THE ALEPH-BETH: ATTRIBUTIONS (YETZIRATIC, TAROT AND SEPHIROTIC)

HEBREW ..SYMBOL. ...YETZIRATIC ...TAROT ...................PATH ON TREE OF LIFE
LETTER ...MEANING ..ATTRIBUTION CORRESPONDENCE ...DELIMITED BY
Aleph ....Ox ...............Air ...............Fool/Swords/Princes ...Kether-Chokmah
Beth ......House .........Mercury .........Magician ..................Kether-Binah
Gimel ... Camel .........Luna High ......Priestess .............Kether-Tiphareth
Daleth ...Door ...........Venus ............Empress ..................Chokmah-Binah
He .........Window .......Aries ..............Emperor ..................Chokmah-Tiphareth
Vau........Nail ............Taurus ..........Hierophant ......Chokmah-Chesed
Zayin ....Sword .........Gemini .........Lovers ............vBinah-Tiphareth
Cheth ...Fence ..........Cancer .........Chariot ............Binah-Geburah
Teth ......Snake .........Leo ..............Strength ...............Chesed-Geburah
Yod ..... .Hand ............Virgo .........Hermit ...............Chesed-Tiphareth

Are you sure you want to look up the Astrological Tarot and Gnostic meaning of the letters in YHWH?

The second link is really not for the faint hearted.

Yod
Yod or yud was anciently portrayed as a symbol of a hand [yad in Hebrew]. This is the entire hand, or closed hand [in contrast with the letter kaf, which comes from the pictograph of the palm of the hand]. The closed hand denotes power and, figuratively, ownership.
Yod is masculine.
In the sacred name Yahweh, it is representative of the Father.
Yod is the seminal letter of the Hebrew alphabet. From
It cannot be divided into component parts, like other letters can. It signifies the oneness of Elohim.
The yod is the smallest [and most humble] letter. From it, the other letters originate.
It is symbolic of creation.
Some consider the yod symbolic of sperm.
It’s numerical equivalent is 10.

Hey
The letter hey is feminine, and represents femininity and gentleness.
The first hey in the Name is representative of the Mother / Holy Spirit / Eloah.
Hey means ‘behold’, ‘to show’ or ‘to reveal’.
In paleo-Hebrew, the figure for hey could be represented either as a person standing with uplifted arms, or as an open window.
The letter hey is numerically and symbolically related to the hand position used by the priesthood in blessing the congregation – because one of the things represented by the spread fingers is a window, through which the Light passes.
Hey has the numerical value of 5.

Vav
Vav is also masculine in gender.
Vav signifies a nail, peg, or hook.
It also conveys the meaning of being nailed or bound together.
The numerical value of vav is 6.
The vav may be likened to the male sexual member.
Vav is used as a conjunction.

The numerical value of yod-hey-vav-hey [Yahweh] is 26.

When the four Hebrew letters for Yahweh are arranged vertically, with yod at the top, then hey, then vav, and then hey, they form a pictograph of a person. The yod forming the head, the first hey forming the arms, the vav representing the trunk, and the final hey representing the legs. This pictorially illustrates that mankind was indeed formed in the image of God.
The yod, is the head – just as the Father component of Elohim is the Head.
The hey forms the arms / breasts. It represents Eloah / El Shaddai – the Goddess – the Feminine within Elohim. The Feminine nurtures and comforts, also functions as the arms of Elohim, giving gifts and blessings.
The vav composes the trunk, and the root [male member]. In the scriptures, Messiah is metaphorically described as a ‘the nail’ and also as ‘the root’.
The second hey makes the legs. It represents the feminine Bride – the Elect, which some call the Congregation or Church. The legs walk the earth, and provide means of movement upon earth for Elohim.

But at least it does say "Hey means ‘behold’, ‘to show’ or ‘to reveal’."

The third link

[PPT] The Hebrew Language Letters and Parts of Letters
[SIZE=-1]File Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - View as HTML[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]window. Vav. nail / hook. Zayin. sword. Chet. the fence enclosing, Pen. Tet. snake. Yod / Yud. open hand. Kaph (a curve). closed hand ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.yeshuatyisrael.com/Powerpoint/Hebrew%20Language.ppt - Similar pages - Note this[/SIZE]

Simply describes heh as window

 

[busterdog]

What never happened?

I haven't abandoned anything, only added an explanation.

Your reference to yod ha seemed to exclude hand.

Plenty of references for the meaning of Hay. Uplifted hands works for me. The best explanation for this meaning is theHoly Spirit. Others could be postulated. It is not "proof", but a good reason to be careful and question whether inerrancy was what God intended.

 

[Assyrian]

I haven't abandoned anything, only added an explanation.

Did I say you had abandoned something

Your reference to yod ha seemed to exclude hand.

No I hadn't discussed yod. The problem in the analysis was hay.

Plenty of references for the meaning of Hay. Uplifted hands works for me. The best explanation for this meaning is theHoly Spirit. Others could be postulated.

No I really don't think we can go making up meanings for these letters. Either we are talking about the actual meaning of letters understood at the time or it is just inventing meanings that fit fulfilment.

It is not "proof", but a good reason to be careful and question whether inerrancy was what God intended.

As theIdi0t has pointed out, fulfilled prophecy simply confirms the inspiration of scripture not necessarily inerrancy, but if you are arguing for inerrancy I would really a stronger ground than this.

 

[shernren]

We could take this elsewhere. Even Origins Theology doesn't really seem suitable.

 

[busterdog]

We could take this elsewhere. Even Origins Theology doesn't really seem suitable.

Well, it is what it is. [No pun intended.] There are a number of sources with a number of different shades of meaning. I think we kind of made our respective points.

 

[Ave Maria]

No, the creationist sub forum should not be closed down. There do need to be rules (if not in place already) that prohibit non-creationists from debating in here though.

 

[Rudolph Hucker]

Ah yes, that will enliven debate. ;-)

 

[FallingWaters]

There is already a forum for debate.
This forum is for learning and discussion.

 

[Rudolph Hucker]

How much difference is there between debate and discussion?

But one might say that for learning a creationist should listen to eveolutionists and vice versa.

 

[FallingWaters]

How much difference is there between debate and discussion?

But one might say that for learning a creationist should listen to eveolutionists and vice versa.

The debate forums here are usually rude and insulting.
I would prefer a respectful friendly discussion.


The theory of evolution has its tentacles in every aspect of American life.
Its teachings are promoted on tv, radio, and in schools and books, everywhere, every day.
Whether we like it or not, I and my children are force-fed its tenets.

What is difficult to find is information about Creation theory.
One has to seek diligently for it.
One does not accidentally stumble across it.

You have the right to desire a debate.
There is a place for it in the debate forum.
I have the right to desire a friendly discussion, free of insults and ridicule.