Creationists: How does creation explain the existence of parasites?

[mmksparbud]

Edited to add: Before responding, please read this Wikipedia page on the Leucochloridium paradoxum - Wikipedia. A few responses so far don't seem to understand exactly what this organism's lifecycle really entails.

Many parasitic organisms have complex lifecycles; in some cases they are dependent on multiple species for their reproductive cycle.

Take for example, Leucochloridium paradoxum. It's a parasitic organism that reproduces via eggs inside of birds. Then the fecal matter containing the eggs are consumed by snails. The eggs hatch inside the snail and then proceed to develop into a sporocyst with various branches throughout the snail's body. The ends of the branches then develop into a broodsac which infest the snail's eyestalk.

In a highly disturbing aspect of mimicry, the broodsacs will pulsate to attract predation by birds while simultaneously mind-controlling the snail:

(Look up "Leucochloridium" on Youtube if you want to see this in action. Warning: it's a bit gross.)

Birds will then attack the snail, ripping out the broodsac from the eyestalk and then the whole cycle starts over.

This is obviously a highly complicated lifecycle that clearly defies biological evolution. Therefore it must have involved the hand of an intelligent designer.

That said, how and why would an intelligent designer create such an organism? Imagine having a parasite in your eyeball that forces you wait around until it's pecked out by a bird. What purpose does such a parasite serve?

You are assuming that these things were created by God. Satan and his angels can not reproduce, nor can they create life---however, they sure can mess with nature. Satan and his angels are extremely intelligent beings. They can manipulate even the weather---read Job. It is they who have worked with nature to create these evil plants and animals. They bring about diseases also. These are not "acts of God."

 

[jacknife]

At the end of the day, I just don't think these influences really are making a choice for me. Rather I am making a choice with consideration of influences in mind. I don't think that environmental factors remove me from true responsibility for what I do.

Okay.

 

[Job 33:6]

Okay.

I guess it's debatable. Is someone who commits murder, a person who made a bad decision? Or are they someone who maybe were abused as children and perhaps grew up and thought that physical violence was ok?

Maybe it's a mix. Not sure how to really distinguish between choice and environmental factors aside from considering them as both being involved. But I do think it's difficult to really exclude choice.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A responsible leader would ensure that the railway was fenced off from adjacent public areas, that warning signs were in evidence and that education programs included instruction on the danger of railways. Failure to do so would quite reasonably make said leader liable for civil and criminal legal actions.

Quite. I would make a closer analogy - if you were a parent looking to give your child the freedom to make their own choices, I suggest that you would select a safe environment and not deliberately provide lethal options for those choices. You would not present the choice between a lethal live wire and a piece of wood and say, "don't touch the wire, it's dangerous" - we all know what curious children are like, particularly ones that don't yet know right from wrong.

If you wanted to have them learn about good and bad choices by negative reinforcement, you could rig the wire to give a mild shock. But even we creatures of very limited knowledge know that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement and promotes wellbeing rather than suffering.

You'd expect an all-knowing, all-loving entity to know better...

Oh wait.... GodWorksInMysteriousWays

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You are assuming that these things were created by God. Satan and his angels can not reproduce, nor can they create life---however, they sure can mess with nature. Satan and his angels are extremely intelligent beings. They can manipulate even the weather---read Job. It is they who have worked with nature to create these evil plants and animals. They bring about diseases also. These are not "acts of God."

So is the argument here that whatever is bad, nasty, evil, or wrong in the world is the fault of Satan and his minions who are ruining God's perfect creation, while all-powerful God just lets them get on with it?

 

[Ophiolite]

So is the argument here that whatever is bad, nasty, evil, or wrong in the world is the fault of Satan and his minions who are ruining God's perfect creation, while all-powerful God just lets them get on with it?

There is a danger that you have erected a strawman version of Christianity. That said, the claims made by some Christians here - and some of the discussion on the Christian only sections - do seem to boil down to that. I don't think it represents all Christians, but probably some, perhaps a lot.

 

[Job 33:6]

Quite. I would make a closer analogy - if you were a parent looking to give your child the freedom to make their own choices, I suggest that you would select a safe environment and not deliberately provide lethal options for those choices. You would not present the choice between a lethal live wire and a piece of wood and say, "don't touch the wire, it's dangerous" - we all know what curious children are like, particularly ones that don't yet know right from wrong.

If you wanted to have them learn about good and bad choices by negative reinforcement, you could rig the wire to give a mild shock. But even we creatures of very limited knowledge know that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement and promotes wellbeing rather than suffering.

You'd expect an all-knowing, all-loving entity to know better...

Oh wait.... GodWorksInMysteriousWays

The problem is that in this world, you really can't remove dangerous situations or environments or tools from the hands of mankind without completely removing their freedom of choice. Or without completely transforming reality to a state in which nothing that causes suffering exists.

You gave an example of an electrical wire. But consider the lengths God would have to go to truly remove all lethal objects or tools used for sin. How would God prevent us from making knives for example? What are we then going to use spoons to cut our meat?

What scripture points at is that it's man's willfulness to choose to sin, that results in God's wrath upon man. And God isn't going to remove all dangerous objects from existence to baby-proof reality for us. He isn't going to delete all cracks in sidewalks from existence just because someone might accidentally trip and hurt themselves for example.

 

[Job 33:6]

I now run into the problem that I'm not permitted by forum rules from expressing certain thoughts that would form an essential part of the argument. I'll reflect on the matter and see if I can find an acceptable way of making the point.

Did you find a way to express your thoughts?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The problem is that in this world, you really can't remove dangerous situations or environments or tools from the hands of mankind without completely removing their freedom of choice. Or without completely transforming reality to a state in which nothing that causes suffering exists.

Nobody is saying God has to remove choice. God (apparently) created everything, including the tree of knowledge of good & evil. He could have left every other tree readily accessible (allowing Adam plenty of choice of fruit) but hidden away the dangerous one. Just as you'd do at home - hide the sharp knives, leave access to the butter knife and spoons etc.

 

[mmksparbud]

So is the argument here that whatever is bad, nasty, evil, or wrong in the world is the fault of Satan and his minions who are ruining God's perfect creation, while all-powerful God just lets them get on with it?

Basically. The time is not yet time to have a perfect world. Satan declared war on God--,aligned His name and intentions. God has allowed Satan to finish what he started. For all of creation to see what following him leads to. The universe saw what it leads to at the cross. That is when Satan was totally kicked out of heaven. The rest of creation saw Satan for what he truly is. This "play" must finish. Jesus, the , Only Son of God, died for sinners. This world has yet to pick Jesus as their leader. When the time is up and everyone has had a chance to choose---then the end will come. Satan and all his followers will have their end in the lake of fire. When they are destroyed, all sin will have been wiped out and God will remake the earth.

 

[pitabread]

Satan and his angels can not reproduce, nor can they create life---however, they sure can mess with nature.

How did they accomplish that specifically?

 

[Job 33:6]

Nobody is saying God has to remove choice. God (apparently) created everything, including the tree of knowledge of good & evil. He could have left every other tree readily accessible (allowing Adam plenty of choice of fruit) but hidden away the dangerous one. Just as you'd do at home - hide the sharp knives, leave access to the butter knife and spoons etc.

Hidden away? Mankind has no limitations on where we go, what stones we overturn, what tools or weapons we make, what foods we try eating etc.

Do you think God should have hidden all poisonous foods in out space so people couldn't get to it?

If you're going to attack a literal interpretation of genesis, all you had to do was tell us how women aren't made of rib bones or men of clay.

When it comes to God's wrath, independent of biblical literalism, God's wrath is justified. It begins with a warning, such as God telling Adam that if he eats of the fruit he shalt surely die. And it follows with mankind making a choice to disobey and to sin. Then God's wrath ensues. Ie, Adam and Eve die.

In the real world, every one of us are faced with these same dilemmas. We have the law, we have scripture to learn from, but many still choose to sin. People still choose to murder or steal, commit adultery, slander, disobey the Lord. But in the end, God gave us a free will to choose our actions.

He's not going to hide knives and guns out somewhere in the Orion nebula so we can't use them. He's not going to delete every cliff from existence so we don't trip off and die. He has given us the ability to choose and to live.

And that's really what Genesis comes down to (excluding all the marriage relate verses and statements of creation).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is a danger that you have erected a strawman version of Christianity. That said, the claims made by some Christians here - and some of the discussion on the Christian only sections - do seem to boil down to that. I don't think it represents all Christians, but probably some, perhaps a lot.

I wasn't referring to Christianity in general, only the argument in the post I quoted. Having grown up in a Christian environment, I realise that many Christians don't hold the view expressed there.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The problem is that in this world, you really can't remove dangerous situations or environments or tools from the hands of mankind without completely removing their freedom of choice. Or without completely transforming reality to a state in which nothing that causes suffering exists.

You gave an example of an electrical wire. But consider the lengths God would have to go to truly remove all lethal objects or tools used for sin. How would God prevent us from making knives for example? What are we then going to use spoons to cut our meat?

What scripture points at is that it's man's willfulness to choose to sin, that results in God's wrath upon man. And God isn't going to remove all dangerous objects from existence to baby-proof reality for us. He isn't going to delete all cracks in sidewalks from existence just because someone might accidentally trip and hurt themselves for example.

I wasn't referring to the whole wide world, but to the story of Adam and Eve, which the discussion I responded to was about.

 

[Job 33:6]

I wasn't referring to the whole wide world, but to the story of Adam and Eve, which the discussion I responded to was about.

Scripture wasn't written in a vacuum. Paul didn't spread the gospel teaching about events that have no relevancy to mankind today.

If you guys are going to go after biblical literalism, all you have to do is remind us that human beings aren't made of clay or rib bones. You guys are beating up on pinatas. I'm looking for some substance here.

I've been hunting for a few weeks now and the only thing I'm finding from the atheist crowd is arguments against YECs. Which is great to an extent, but there's a lot more ground to cover.

Making logical arguments against a world where a woman was made out of a rib bone. But what about the world viewed by the vast quantity of non YECs?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Basically. The time is not yet time to have a perfect world. Satan declared war on God--,aligned His name and intentions. God has allowed Satan to finish what he started. For all of creation to see what following him leads to. The universe saw what it leads to at the cross. That is when Satan was totally kicked out of heaven. The rest of creation saw Satan for what he truly is. This "play" must finish. Jesus, the , Only Son of God, died for sinners. This world has yet to pick Jesus as their leader. When the time is up and everyone has had a chance to choose---then the end will come. Satan and all his followers will have their end in the lake of fire. When they are destroyed, all sin will have been wiped out and God will remake the earth.

OK. I suppose it makes an exciting story, but...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Scripture wasn't written in a vacuum. Paul didn't spread the gospel teaching about events that have no relevancy to mankind today.

If you guys are going to go after biblical literalism, all you have to do is remind us that human beings aren't made of clay or rib bones. You guys are beating up on pinatas. I'm looking for some substance here.

I've been hunting for a few weeks now and the only thing I'm finding from the atheist crowd is arguments against YECs. Which is great to an extent, but there's a lot more ground to cover.

Making logical arguments against a world where a woman was made out of a rib bone. But what about the world viewed by the vast quantity of non YECs?

YEC arguments are being aired here, and I find it interesting to question them at present. If my present interest doesn't coincide with yours, perhaps you'll find something more to your taste elsewhere - maybe you could create your own thread? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Job 33:6]

YEC arguments are being aired here, and I find it interesting to question them at present. If my present interest doesn't coincide with yours, perhaps you'll find something more to your taste elsewhere - maybe you could create your own thread? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yea yea . I'll keep dreaming of the day that the core of Christianity is challenged here. I'll be waiting.

A topic where the word "creationist" means more than someone who thinks that people battled in Roman style coliseums with dinosaurs.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Yea yea . I'll keep dreaming of the day that the core of Christianity is challenged here. I'll be waiting.

A topic where the word "creationist" means more than someone who thinks that people battled in Roman style coliseums with dinosaurs.

This is a science forum, the question of the core of Christianity is not really the subject in that belief in a deity is not the subject of science. It is only when persons make claims to the evidence of a deity as their explanation for physical reality that it is addressed. In that sense, your posts are more relevant to the Christians only section you came from. Here your position is more seen as, that's nice but we are not arguing that. That said, your geologic knowledge and explanations are greatly appreciated.

 

[durangodawood]

The problem is that in this world, you really can't remove dangerous situations or environments or tools from the hands of mankind without completely removing their freedom of choice. Or without completely transforming reality to a state in which nothing that causes suffering exists.

You gave an example of an electrical wire. But consider the lengths God would have to go to truly remove all lethal objects or tools used for sin. How would God prevent us from making knives for example? What are we then going to use spoons to cut our meat?

What scripture points at is that it's man's willfulness to choose to sin, that results in God's wrath upon man. And God isn't going to remove all dangerous objects from existence to baby-proof reality for us. He isn't going to delete all cracks in sidewalks from existence just because someone might accidentally trip and hurt themselves for example.

This assumes our capacity to imagine a solution matches God's capacity.

I suppose God might have ran into a brick wall when trying to allow freedom without suffering. But given our limits, can we know that?