Creationists: How does creation explain the existence of parasites?

[Job 33:6]

Predetermined might be a bad word for what I'm trying to say. When you make a choice the tool set you use to make that choice (genetics, the environment you grew up in your life expirences, etc) is something you yourself had zero influence on. So just how much free will did you truley have? I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this well.

I think that people still can make choices in the face of these influences. And that these choices themselves demonstrate a freedom of choice.

Beyond this, I think it's just an overcomplicating of the topic.

 

[Job 33:6]

Oddly enough your socks are a great example. When did you pick what colors you like in life?

I'd say that I started picking and wearing more blue socks later in life. Probably because I chose to conform with those around me that also wear blue.

Though on any given day, I can choose to wear yellow socks, and sometimes I do, which are in complete contrast with conforming with society. It entertains me to wear yellow, so I choose to now and then

 

[Job 33:6]

I'd say that I started picking and wearing more blue socks later in life. Probably because I chose to conform with those around me that also wear blue.

Though on any given day, I can choose to wear yellow socks, and sometimes I do, which are in complete contrast with conforming with society. It entertains me to wear yellow, so I choose to now and then

And I think that if choice were not to exist, I think it would by default mean that we already have a destiny set in stone, or are pre destined, to go somewhere.

I just don't think this is the case. I tend to go more with Stephen J Goulds idea that if we were to rewind a clock of time, that history might play itself out differently rather than being perfectly determined without anyone or anything having any choice in the matter.

 

[Lost4words]

God is wonderful. Creator of all things.

 

[eleos1954]

You demonstrably do not think through what you post.

"God didn't create death, he created law. And the consequence of breaking the law was death." Tell us, who created death as a punishment?

Did God say to Adam "if you break this law you will die" or did Adam say to God "if I break this law you must end my life"?

God didn't say if you eat of the tree I will murder/kill you.

If there is a train coming down the tracks full speed and one makes the DECISION to run out in front of it they made that choice knowing the outcome ....

there is a difference.

Besides that .... Jesus (who is God) took the punishment/consequence of sinning for everyone so that they may have eternal life. So CHOICE continues and will continue until Jesus returns.

 

[jacknife]

And I think that if choice were not to exist, I think it would by default mean that we already have a destiny set in stone, or are pre destined, to go somewhere.

I just don't think this is the case. I tend to go more with Stephen J Goulds idea that if we were to rewind a clock of time, that history might play itself out differently rather than being perfectly determined without anyone or anything having any choice in the matter.

I still wouldn't say something like destiny drives it the process itself is unintelligent i'd actually agree would Gould as well thiers a million diffrent variables from which things went they way they did for our history. I'd say if you totally reset everything it might be fimilar but history would hardly be the same.

 

[Ophiolite]

If there is a train coming down the tracks full speed and one makes the DECISION to run out in front of it they made that choice knowing the outcome ....

A responsible leader would ensure that the railway was fenced off from adjacent public areas, that warning signs were in evidence and that education programs included instruction on the danger of railways. Failure to do so would quite reasonably make said leader liable for civil and criminal legal actions.

 

[Job 33:6]

I still wouldn't say something like destiny drives it the process itself is unintelligent i'd actually agree would Gould as well thiers a million diffrent variables from which things went they way they did for our history. I'd say if you totally reset everything it might be fimilar but history would hardly be the same.

What would make history turn out differently if not decisions of thinking beings?

I'm not sure that something inanimate would change how it moves if given another opportunity.

 

[Job 33:6]

A responsible leader would ensure that the railway was fenced off from adjacent public areas, that warning signs were in evidence and that education programs included instruction on the danger of railways. Failure to do so would quite reasonably make said leader liable for civil and criminal legal actions.

Unless, by the nature of giving us free will, God must not create a fence barring our actions.

Someone could say that the leader could imprison people as well, and that would surely prevent them from making bad decisions. But that wouldnt exactly be the best creation.

Consider the vastness of limitations that God would need to impose on us, to prevent us from sinning. God would have to remove our physical and intellectual freedom.

 

[Ophiolite]

Consider the vastness of limitations that God would need to impose on us, to prevent us from sinning

I don't see why that would be beyond the capabilities of an omnipotent and omniscient entity. I'm not even sure the limitations would be that vast.
The Chrisitian God is clearly said to be much more powerful in every possible regard than Man, even though man is made in His image. Yet practically every parent knows that if you say to a young child "now, whatever you do, don't touch that", as soon as your back is turned they will try to touch it. Parents can be brought up on criminal charges for their failure to recognise that. I don't see any reason to give God a pass on responsibility for his Creation.

Edit: I reflected a little more and now address your first paragraph.

Unless, by the nature of giving us free will, God must not create a fence barring our actions.

That doesn't bar our actions. It just makes sure we don't casually, or accidentally walk in front of the train. We have to consciously ignore the warning signs and climb over, dig under, or cut our way through the fence.

 

[jacknife]

What would make history turn out differently if not decisions of thinking beings?

I'm not sure that something inanimate would change how it moves if given another opportunity.

But if you changed the enviorment people grew up in you would alter what makes that person them. Or wait are we resetting people in this example or the earth and people as a whole?

 

[Larniavc]

"Choosing" almost sounds like the mindset of a stalker to me.

I was once told that atheists claiming to be love were simple two stalkers who were stalking each other.

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't see why that would be beyond the capabilities of an omnipotent and omniscient entity. I'm not even sure the limitations would be that vast.
The Chrisitian God is clearly said to be much more powerful in every possible regard than Man, even though man is made in His image. Yet practically every parent knows that if you say to a young child "now, whatever you do, don't touch that", as soon as your back is turned they will try to touch it. Parents can be brought up on criminal charges for their failure to recognise that. I don't see any reason to give God a pass on responsibility for his Creation.

Edit: I reflected a little more and now address your first paragraph.
That doesn't bar our actions. It just makes sure we don't casually, or accidentally walk in front of the train. We have to consciously ignore the warning signs and climb over, dig under, or cut our way through the fence.

I think it's more of a logical impossibility than it is necessarily a limitation of the power of God.

If God really wanted to completely eliminate sin, God could make us robots that never even have a thought about sin, let alone have a choice to choose such a thought. But the cost of such a removal of this kind of freedom, would defeat the beauty in creation. Unless God just made us a bunch of mindless robots.

And mankind isn't really a bunch of children without responsibility for our actions as a child is.

If I am a grown man and my parents tell me not to throw a rock at an old lady, and I do so anyway, my parents don't get punished for this, I do.

And you mentioned that someone would have to climb a fence in your scenario. God would have to make an infinitely tall fence to truly prevent mankind from climbing it, just by the nature of mankind and our willingness to make bad choices. Or alternatively, God would have to place some sort of limitation in the design of people that would prevent us from having the free choice to climb.

And to be fair, God did warn Adam not to eat of the apple. The warning sign was there and Adam trespassed that warning by free will.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think it's more of a logical impossibility than it is necessarily a limitation of the power of God.

If God really wanted to completely eliminate sin, God could make us robots that never even have a thought about sin, let alone have a choice to choose such a thought. But the cost of such a removal of this kind of freedom, would defeat the beauty in creation. Unless God just made us a bunch of mindless robots.

And mankind isn't really a bunch of children without responsibility for our actions as a child is.

If I am a grown man and my parents tell me not to throw a rock at an old lady, and I do so anyway, my parents don't get punished for this, I do.

And you mentioned that someone would have to climb a fence in your scenario. God would have to make an infinitely tall fence to truly prevent mankind from climbing it, just by the nature of mankind and our willingness to make bad choices. Or alternatively, God would have to place some sort of limitation in the design of people that would prevent us from having the free choice to climb.

And to be fair, God did warn Adam not to eat of the apple. The warning sign was there and Adam trespassed that warning by free will.

And maybe someone could say "well why wouldn't God give Adam, or any other person perhaps a divine awareness of the repercussions of eating of the apple?".

And I think in a lot of cases, people are well aware of repercussions for crime, but they certainly still choose to anyway. Knowing of the death penalty and prison has never stopped a serial killer. Alternatively, for God to really remove all crime, God would either have to remove our freedom of choice, or God would have to give us divine qualities, maybe even on equal levels to himself, such as qualities of never having to eat, and never feeling hungry which might influence people to steal food. Or maybe God would create us so we would never get cold so we would never steal each others clothes or blankets. Etc.

God would have to make a creation with qualities that only God can possess. In which case, it wouldn't be creation at all, it would be some kind of self replication.

 

[Ophiolite]

And you mentioned that someone would have to climb a fence in your scenario. God would have to make an infinitely tall fence to truly prevent mankind from climbing it, just by the nature of mankind and our willingness to make bad choices.

I have expressed myself badly. The object in the analogy is not to prevent someone climbing the fence, it is intended to make them realise that the train track is a no-go area, to make it absolutely clear "this is unacceptable". It is to ensure that the sin is a conscious, active decision, not one made out of ignorance or distraction.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have expressed myself badly. The object in the analogy is not to prevent someone climbing the fence, it is intended to make them realise that the train track is a no-go area, to make it absolutely clear "this is unacceptable". It is to ensure that the sin is a conscious, active decision, not one made out of ignorance or distraction.

What do think of scripture when God told Adam the repercussions for eating of the Apple?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

— Genesis 2:16–17

You could post that on a fence by a train track. "Climb this fence and thou shalt surely die."

 

[Job 33:6]

What do think of scripture when God told Adam the repercussions for eating of the Apple?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

— Genesis 2:16–17

You could post that on a fence by a train track. "Climb this fence and thou shalt surely die."

One thing about God's wrath that is continually described in scripture, is that people are considered to be "without excuse" as it's stated. Meaning that God makes efforts, such as that described in Genesis, to warn people not to make these choices. But they do anyway.

A serial killer knows he will go to jail, but by the nature of man, we have free will to choose to be criminals anyway, and some of us choose this.

Alternatively, to remove sin, God would have to give people things like infinite life and resources so that we would never feud. Give us infinite presence so we would never feel confined or unhappy if our house is too small. He would have to remove our nervous system so we wouldn't feel pain if we tripped on a crack in a sidewalk. God would have to remove the sidewalk itself to prevent us from suffering in growing tired as we walked on it. He would have to remove all suffering and sin as a product of it, and remove free choice and intellectual independence of mankind.

 

[Ophiolite]

What do think of scripture when God told Adam the repercussions for eating of the Apple?

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

— Genesis 2:16–17

You could post that on a fence by a train track. "Climb this fence and thou shalt surely die."

I now run into the problem that I'm not permitted by forum rules from expressing certain thoughts that would form an essential part of the argument. I'll reflect on the matter and see if I can find an acceptable way of making the point.

 

[Job 33:6]

I now run into the problem that I'm not permitted by forum rules from expressing certain thoughts that would form an essential part of the argument. I'll reflect on the matter and see if I can find an acceptable way of making the point.

You won't offend me. You are welcome to send it to me through a direct message if you would like. I'd be curious to hear.

On occasion I've posted some pretty controversial concepts for the sake of discussion and I've made it through. I think if you word it in a professional way, you should be fine.

 

[Job 33:6]

But if you changed the enviorment people grew up in you would alter what makes that person them. Or wait are we resetting people in this example or the earth and people as a whole?

At the end of the day, I just don't think these influences really are making a choice for me. Rather I am making a choice with consideration of influences in mind. I don't think that environmental factors remove me from true responsibility for what I do.