Creationists: Explain

[notto]

Today at 05:37 AM Badfish said this in Post #20



A lab cannot possibly even come close to reproducing all the conditions or factors in the real world that could cause bacterial mutations.

We can't discount the possibility of *new-found strains* being erroneously perceived as newly *evolved* strains.

The point is that when studies are none in the lab, they start with one strain of bacteria. There is no source for an erroneously percieved strain. They are indeed new strains that did not exist before. The lab doesn't have to create conditions or factors that cause mutations, only selective pressure to select ones with the right RANDOM mutations. The conditions in the lab don't cause the mutations, selective pressure only causes mutations that allow the strain to survive to become prevalent in the population.

In nature, there are probably new strains coming out all the time due to random mutation and selective pressure. Man made biotics only increase the ability for mutations that give resistence to them to become dominant in a population.

 

[OldBadfish]

Yeah, could be.

 

[TheBear]

It took a long time for many Christians, to accept the round earth theory. And, Geocentricism gave way to Heliocentric thinking.....Eventually. These changes of views did not occur over-night, but as the scientific method was producing results, based on those views, they finally changed their views.

Right now, the YEC's are on the path - (in little steps, mind you) - toward a better explaination of God's creation. Making "micro-evolution" a palatable explaination for them, is a step in the right direction. I am patient.

We are commanded to have dominance over the earth and all living things. And, science is a valuable tool towards that end.

Gen 1:26 -
"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (NKJV)

 

[Arikay]

Not only that, but it allows people to further understand god and what he ment.

By slowly understanding that the bible shouldnt be taken literally, but more symbolically, we can now look at the words and see what all the symbols mean and how they relate to teachings in our life.

(not to equate the bible to fairy tales, but...)
Look at a Fairy Tale, good stories but generally pointless taken at face value, however many have good moral lessons that they teach. The bible has many good moral lessons already in it, so by looking at it even more than face value, just think of all the teachings that have gone un heard and not understood. Teachings that can help us even further.

But then, im not quite learned in this area yet, so I may be wrong.

 

[OldBadfish]

Today at 09:47 PM TheBear said this in Post #23

It took a long time for many Christians, to accept the round earth theory. And, Geocentricism gave way to Heliocentric thinking.....Eventually. These changes of views did not occur over-night, but as the scientific method was producing results, based on those views, they finally changed their views.

Right now, the YEC's are on the path - (in little steps, mind you) - toward a better explaination of God's creation. Making "micro-evolution" a palatable explaination for them, is a step in the right direction. I am patient.

We are commanded to have dominance over the earth and all living things. And, science is a valuable tool towards that end.

Gen 1:26 -
"Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (NKJV)

No they're not Bear. Not little steps, not any steps. There is no palatable explaination that can merge Gods breathed word (Creation-Genesis), and evolution.

Job 26:7

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.


Isa 40:22

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


There is no hebrew word for globe, so this would have to suffice.

How far are you suggesting micro-evolution has come? Can you give an example of the most dramatic example of micro-evolution?

 

[OldBadfish]

Today at 09:56 PM Arikay said this in Post #24

Not only that, but it allows people to further understand god and what he ment.

It allows people to be open to falsehoods and susceptible to false teachings and false prophets. Christians are to be on the lookout for this stuff.

Yes, God wants us to use science, but not in a fashion as to discredit or **attempt** to discredit his God breathed word.

 

[Micaiah]

Micro evolution may be a new term for something that has been known for years. Any one who has worked on a farm (Jacob in Scripture) would know that limited genetic change within a population is possible.

 

[TheBear]

Today at 12:56 AM Arikay said this in Post #24

Not only that, but it allows people to further understand god and what he ment.

By slowly understanding that the bible shouldnt be taken literally, but more symbolically, we can now look at the words and see what all the symbols mean and how they relate to teachings in our life.

(not to equate the bible to fairy tales, but...)
Look at a Fairy Tale, good stories but generally pointless taken at face value, however many have good moral lessons that they teach. The bible has many good moral lessons already in it, so by looking at it even more than face value, just think of all the teachings that have gone un heard and not understood. Teachings that can help us even further.

But then, im not quite learned in this area yet, so I may be wrong.

I was talking from a Christian perspective.

The Bible contains a mixture of writing styles. Some are metaphoric, some are symbolic, and other writings are pretty straight-forward and direct.

But above all that, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (a sign of a true believer), the non-believer will never understand to any depth.

1Cor 2:14 -
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[Micaiah]

Today at 01:56 PM Arikay said this in Post #24

Not only that, but it allows people to further understand god and what he ment.

By slowly understanding that the bible shouldnt be taken literally, but more symbolically, we can now look at the words and see what all the symbols mean and how they relate to teachings in our life.

(not to equate the bible to fairy tales, but...)
Look at a Fairy Tale, good stories but generally pointless taken at face value, however many have good moral lessons that they teach. The bible has many good moral lessons already in it, so by looking at it even more than face value, just think of all the teachings that have gone un heard and not understood. Teachings that can help us even further.

But then, im not quite learned in this area yet, so I may be wrong.

That kind of view of Scripture quickly creates the doubt in God's word that turns people away from the truth.

 

[Micaiah]

Today at 02:03 PM Badfish said this in Post #25



No they're not Bear. Not little steps, not any steps. There is no palatable explaination that can merge Gods breathed word (Creation-Genesis), and evolution.

Job 26:7

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.


Isa 40:22

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


There is no hebrew word for globe, so this would have to suffice.

How far are you suggesting micro-evolution has come? Can you give an example of the most dramatic example of micro-evolution?

I'm with you on this one Bro. As we learn more real science, the true nature of theories that seek to supplant God's word will be clearly seen.

 

[Arikay]

This is where you must put your faith in god, in the unknown, instead of the physical written word.

it doesnt open the door, the door has been open all along. You can see it used many times when people take the "literal" interpretation of the bible and use it to hate (commit sin) other people.

Put your faith in god. that if you mean well, and dont sin, that god will guide you and protect you from those false prophets.
Its definatly a scary thing to put your faith in the unknown, but if the unknown is in gods hands, then its not really the unknown. However, by putting your faith into the physical word, you are limiting your faith and limiting gods ability to guide you beyond his 2000+ year old writtings.

Today at 10:05 PM Badfish said this in Post #26



It allows people to be open to falsehoods and susceptible to false teachings and false prophets. Christians are to be on the lookout for this stuff.

Yes, God wants us to use science, but not in a fashion as to discredit or **attempt** to discredit his God breathed word.

 

[notto]

Today at 06:09 AM Micaiah said this in Post #27

Micro evolution may be a new term for something that has been known for years. Any one who has worked on a farm (Jacob in Scripture) would know that limited genetic change within a population is possible.

So, according to the plain teaching of scripture, this should work, right?

Genesis (RSV)
37 Then Jacob took fresh rods of poplar and almond and plane, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the rods. 38 He set the rods which he had peeled in front of the flocks in the runnels, that is, the watering troughs, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the rods and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted. 40 And Jacob separated the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban; and he put his own droves apart, and did not put them with Laban's flock. 41 Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding Jacob laid the rods in the runnels before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the rods, 42 but for the feebler of the flock he did not lay them there; so the feebler were Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's.

 

[chickenman]

microevolution is a term that isn't really used in biology

biologists see no substantial difference between micro and macro besides magnitude of change

creationists love the term though, it allows them to accept the parts of evolution which are so obvious that even the kids they're trying to indoctrinate would recognise them, but they can still create an imaginary barrier between micro and macro in order to reject common ancestry

 

[Arikay]

Ah, ic. I think Im understanding it all more.

Today at 10:12 PM TheBear said this in Post #28



I was talking from a Christian perspective.

The Bible contains a mixture of writing styles. Some are metaphoric, some are symbolic, and other writings are pretty straight-forward and direct.

But above all that, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (a sign of a true believer), the non-believer will never understand to any depth.

1Cor 2:14 -
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[chickenman]

haha, great 1 notto

I wouldn't be brave enough to interpret that as literal truth

 

[TheBear]

Today at 01:16 AM Micaiah said this in Post #30



I'm with you on this one Bro. As we learn more real science, the true nature of theories that seek to supplant God's word will be clearly seen.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Have you ever seen a doctor? Taken medication? Right now I see you're enjoying the advances in computer and telecommunications sciences.

It boils down to interpretation of scripture.....not science vs God.

 

[Micaiah]

Today at 02:12 PM TheBear said this in Post #28



I was talking from a Christian perspective.

The Bible contains a mixture of writing styles. Some are metaphoric, some are symbolic, and other writings are pretty straight-forward and direct.

But above all that, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (a sign of a true believer), the non-believer will never understand to any depth.

1Cor 2:14 -
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Christian perspective must surely be based on the teaching of Scripture. The NT authors and Christ clearly taught Genesis was a record of the lives of real people and events, not metaphorical images. To doubt the truth of Scripture on this matter is to undermine the authority of Scripture on other areas directly relating to salvation. How can we be confident that our interpretation of essential truths is correct, if we cannot trust the words of Christ and His inspired writers.

God's took pains to communicate His will to humanity in a way that was simple and clear. He wants us to be confident and sure of what we believe.

 

[TheBear]

Today at 01:25 AM Micaiah said this in Post #37



The Christian perspective must surely be based on the teaching of Scripture. The NT authors and Christ clearly taught Genesis was a record of the lives of real people and events, not metaphorical images. To doubt the truth of Scripture on this matter is to undermine the authority of Scripture on other areas directly relating to salvation. How can we be confident that our interpretation of essential truths is correct, if we cannot trust the words of Christ and His inspired writers.

God's took pains to communicate His will to humanity in a way that was simple and clear. He wants us to be confident and sure of what we believe.

In you own words, what is God's overriding message, throught scripture?

 

[Arikay]

Im not sure about anyone else, but I think the step from literal to non literal bible, is one of strengthening faith. To put your faith more in god and the unknown than a bible that you can read and literally interpret. Its much scarier to not have everything drawn out as nice and neat as a literal bible would do, so you need to put more faith in gods guiding hand.

IMHO.

 

[Micaiah]

Today at 02:17 PM notto said this in Post #32




So, according to the plain teaching of scripture, this should work, right?

Genesis (RSV)
37 Then Jacob took fresh rods of poplar and almond and plane, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the rods. 38 He set the rods which he had peeled in front of the flocks in the runnels, that is, the watering troughs, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the rods and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted. 40 And Jacob separated the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban; and he put his own droves apart, and did not put them with Laban's flock. 41 Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding Jacob laid the rods in the runnels before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the rods, 42 but for the feebler of the flock he did not lay them there; so the feebler were Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's.

Yes, I believe that it did work in this circumstance. I believe this is a record of real events, that Jacob was a real person.

Do you normally disregard as myth the plain teaching of Scripture every time you come across the supernatural or something you cannot explain. Why then do you accept the gospel message.