Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

[Beastt]

Beastt,

We have a little-known doctrine called ontological subordination. What this simply means is: one Person of the Godhead is active while the other two usually are passive.

In Old Testament times, the First Person of the Godhead was very active on the Earth, while the Second and Third were passive.

In the beginning of the New Testament, the Second Person of the Godhead took center stage, with the First and Third passive.

On the day of Pentecost and forward, the Third Person took center stage --- and currently has it --- until the Rapture --- when again the Second Person will take it for 1000 years, then, finally, turn it over to the First Person for all of eternity.

I said all this to say this: the Holy Ghost isn't currently in the habit of leaving evidence behind (I'm not charismatic or Pentecostal). God the Father and God the Son have the evidence.

More evidence of the polytheistic aspects of a religion which proclaims itself to be monotheistic. Aside from that, it's still completely unsupportable. You're still taking about a 4.6 billion year old Earth which holds no evidence of this First Person of the Godhead having done anything at all. None of miraculous claims for this First Person Godhead are substantiated by evidence. Even the supposed flood which would have left unmistakable evidence has left nothing. If you care to look back further, you can see the 13.7 billion year old universe which again yields no evidence of God-1, God-2 or God-3.

That's why we look for evidence, but it's only spiritually discerned.

Left up to the imagination, where spirituallity has always been safe. But in reality, it dies an instant death.

Your spiritually discerned evidence is no different from the "spiritually discerned" evidence offered by all of those who proclaim gods other than the Christian God. Since Christianity holds that the other gods dont' exist, what makes your "spiritually discerned" evidence more credible than theirs?

 

[Beastt]

Well, you can take that 26 years and stuff it in a garbage can as far as I am concerned. My life was not worth much of anything until I became a christian. In that first 26 years the only thing of any value was what God was doing in my life trying to draw me onto Himself. Just like God is doing a work in your life now, trying to help you to become the person that He always intended for you to be.

So you have found value to your life through your belief in God. That doesn't mean that God exists or that he provides you with value. Some find great value through sports, does that mean that sports are divine? At least sports exists but it's still just an activity of athletic competition.

You need to connect with the fact that people find value in their lives through self-esteem. If you lack self-esteem, life will seem meaningless, as it often does to people during an unwanted divorce or other romantic, emotional rejection. You believe that God is good and your belief in God is good so it makes you feel good about yourself to believe. That boosts your self-esteem and helps you to find value in your life. Members of other religions are also taught that their gods are good and belief in those gods are good. So they, like you, find value in their lives by believing in their respective gods.

But not everything which provides peer approval and an elevated self-esteem must, by virtue of those effects, be real. Even an imaginary friend can help keep one sane if secluded from contact for too long. God is your imaginary friend and your imaginary good-deed which makes you feel good about yourself, (provides positive self-esteem), and thusly, causes you to believe he is real. You're real, John. We have evidence of your existence. God leaves no evidence and as such, no reason for us to believe he actually exists.

 

[Protinus]

Can one pick here in mid stream? Or is it impossible?

 

[JohnR7]

Can one pick here in mid stream? Or is it impossible?

Comment on whatever you want to comment on.

 

[JohnR7]

how subjectivity works and how it allows one to select only the evidence which supports their desired belief. It's a way of trying to make the evidence fit one's desired beliefs rather than allowing one's beliefs to fit the evidence.

That holds true for evos as well as creos. They both try to make the "evidence" fit their belief system. That is why the challange is not to be subjective, but to be objective. Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, is one of the world's leading scientists. He argues that: "Science is the only reliable way to understand the natural world, and its tools when properly utilized can generate profound insights into material existence. But science is powerless to answer questions such as "Why did the universe come into being?" "What is the meaning of human existence?" "What happens after we die?" One of the strongest motivations of humankind is to seek answers to profound questions, and we need to bring all the power of both the scientific and spiritual perspectives to bear on understanding what is both seen and unseen".

 

[Beastt]

That holds true for evos as well as creos. They both try to make the "evidence" fit their belief system.

That's just an unsupportable assertion, John. Evolution is science. Creationism is mythology/theology. They're not the same at all. Science requires objectivity. Theology and mythology allow subjectivity.

That is why the challange is not to be subjective, but to be objective. Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, is one of the world's leading scientists. He argues that: "Science is the only reliable way to understand the natural world, and its tools when properly utilized can generate profound insights into material existence. But science is powerless to answer questions such as "Why did the universe come into being?" "What is the meaning of human existence?" "What happens after we die?" One of the strongest motivations of humankind is to seek answers to profound questions, and we need to bring all the power of both the scientific and spiritual perspectives to bear on understanding what is both seen and unseen".

He's clearly assuming that there is a "why" and a meaning for human existence. That displays a clearly subjective standpoint. If he's such a great scientist, he should apply scientific principles to his theology. Of course, if he did that, his theology would poof out of existence because it's all built on subjective analysis.

 

[JohnR7]

Evolution is science.

Far to often Evolution is NOT science because they simply are not objective.

 

[AV1611VET]

If I were in God's place, with his abilities, I can assure you of this much, John. If I wanted everyone to know I existed, no one would hold any more doubt than they do for the existence of their human neighbor.

Go ahead, Beastt and tell us what YOU would do if YOU were God. Would you show up and thump all the deities of Egypt? Would you part, say, the Red Sea? Would that convince everyone? How about hovering in the sky in a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud by day? Would that do it? How about parting the Jordan River? Dropping 185,000 Assyrians in their tracks?

Better yet, how about walking on water, healing the sick, feeding 5000 with two fishes and five loaves, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, or even the granddaddy of them all --- taking your best friend's sins upon yourself, dying for those sins so he wouldn't have to, and coming back from the dead three days later?

What then would they say about YOU, Beastt, after all that?

Here are some examples:

• Prove Beastt existed.
  Show me some evidence.
  What Beastt really did was...
  It was just mass hysteria.
  The stories of Beastt are just exaggerations.
  etc.

Ya --- you'd really show 'em wouldn't you?

Kinda sad, isn't it?

 

[Beastt]

Go ahead, Beastt and tell us what YOU would do if YOU were God. Would you show up and thump all the deities of Egypt? Would you part, say, the Red Sea? Would that convince everyone? How about hovering in the sky in a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud by day? Would that do it? How about parting the Jordan River? Dropping 185,000 Assyrians in their tracks?

Better yet, how about walking on water, healing the sick, feeding 5000 with two fishes and five loaves, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, or even the granddaddy of them all --- taking your best friend's sins upon yourself, dying for those sins so he wouldn't have to, and coming back from the dead three days later?

What then would they say about YOU, Beastt, after all that?

Here are some examples:

• Prove Beastt existed.
  Show me some evidence.
  What Beastt really did was...
  It was just mass hysteria.
  The stories of Beastt are just exaggerations.
  etc.

Ya --- you'd really show 'em wouldn't you?

Kinda sad, isn't it?

What's wrong with appearing physically? What's wrong with actually doing something that no one could reasonably deny I did?

Two armies are confronting each other on the battlefield and suddenly an 80-foot tall, humanoid figure walks out between them and stands there. Every projectile fails to pass the point where he stands. Wathcha gonna say?

Why would a god hide all of the time. Why not be with the people you're said to be so infatuated with? Why not deliver your own message instead of relying upon men who always use the same tactic no matter what god they're promoting? Don't deliver your message via a silly, man-made book. Provide a reproducing multi-media stone with both cognitive and psychic ability. Think of a question and see the answer appear on the stone. Do you have a friend who is a skeptic, simply concentrate and your stone turns into two stones. Give him one to play with. Would you deny a stone that could answer any reasonable question? What about one which simply replayed the creation of the Earth and universe in a manner completely indisputable by science?

You act like whatever a God does, he must do only once or twice, then retreat again to his hiding place. I understand that this is what most religions teach, but it's ludicrous. They only teach that because there is no other way to explain the absense of all these gods.

 

[Tomk80]

Go ahead, Beastt and tell us what YOU would do if YOU were God. Would you show up and thump all the deities of Egypt? Would you part, say, the Red Sea? Would that convince everyone? How about hovering in the sky in a pillar of fire by night, and a cloud by day? Would that do it? How about parting the Jordan River? Dropping 185,000 Assyrians in their tracks?

Better yet, how about walking on water, healing the sick, feeding 5000 with two fishes and five loaves, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, or even the granddaddy of them all --- taking your best friend's sins upon yourself, dying for those sins so he wouldn't have to, and coming back from the dead three days later?

What then would they say about YOU, Beastt, after all that?

Here are some examples:

• Prove Beastt existed.
  Show me some evidence.
  What Beastt really did was...
  It was just mass hysteria.
  The stories of Beastt are just exaggerations.
  etc.

Ya --- you'd really show 'em wouldn't you?

Kinda sad, isn't it?

That's why you have to keep doing it, in stead of suddenly stop. You can't expect a sane person to believe, without questions, the stories of some nomads from 3000 years ago. Especially if that person knows that similar cultures like that of those nomads do not treat history in the literal way that the culture of that person does now. So you have to keep showing yourself and keep presenting evidence of your presence.

Just as my presence on this earth can be contested in 200 years, since I won't leave that much evidence. And that's in modern times. If I would be God, and an omnipotent and omniscient one at that, I would take that into account.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't deliver your message via a silly, man-made book. Provide a reproducing multi-media stone with both cognitive and psychic ability. Think of a question and see the answer appear on the stone. Do you have a friend who is a skeptic, simply concentrate and your stone turns into two stones. Give him one to play with. Would you deny a stone that could answer any reasonable question?

You know, Beastt, that just may happen---

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[NASAg03]

Believeing in god doesn't answer all "whys"

The obvious answer to why is to pass you genetic inheritence on to another generation. If you as why to that it is because that is what dna does and our bodies are vessels for our dna, i.e. you get a because.

so that's your meaning in life? at least give me the "to be happy" generic meaning of life. again, there are countless people who have all their needs met, have family that loves them, and yet they are not happy. why?

perhaps this is what makes humans different than animals. suicide. the fact that we need meaning to live. we dont just live, but need a purpose to strive after. why is this? apes can think, and communicate. but how many apes commit suicide because they dont know their meaning in life and their existance seems pointless?

It is tremendously arrogant to believe the unreligious can't face a personal crisis without crying to a "sky daddy".

maybe because i've seen the firsthand results of people that dont have a personal relationship with God, and how they are not happy and fulfilled in life. i've seen their change, in character and outlook, and that shows to me that God exists, and that there is something more that just the material world.

Personaly I don't feel the need of an imaginary friend to help me through the bad patches of life, I find real friends and family suffice.

my real friends have yet to give me reason to live, or been able to change me into a better person. seeking after a relationship with God has. seeking to know Him, and to grow in Him has changed me, and given more capacity to love and to show people love.

without God i am just an animal and have no reason to love. with God, i have been created different than animals, with a purpose to love, and to show love. God commands me to love, and He shows me how to love.

Which is exactly why science is so interesting. You come up against an "I don't know" and then you start to amass evidence and then an hypothesis. What is boring is coming up against an "I don't know" and leaving it at that.

have you ever seen a dog chase a car?

rather pointless, huh? what is all this searching going to give you, or show you? how we exist? yes, it's interesting, and amazing. but as some point, you just have to give up and say it doesn't matter. because it doesn't.

searching the ends of the universe wont give you the answer for meaning in life.

and because YOU do believe in him doesn't mean he does. Hence agnosticism.

You know it makes sense.

you're right - me believing in God doesn't make Him real. that choice is for each person to seek and find out. what He has done in my life, and tought me, has made Him real. the changes that have happened since i set out to know him have been real, and my friends and family around me have seen those changes and know they are real.

 

[USincognito]

perhaps this is what makes humans different than animals. suicide. the fact that we need meaning to live. we dont just live, but need a purpose to strive after. why is this? apes can think, and communicate. but how many apes commit suicide because they dont know their meaning in life and their existance seems pointless?

Humans don't commit suicide because their life and existance "seem pointless." They commit suicide because they suffer from depression, have a terminal disease or both. Your metaphysical expression is only the proximate cause of suicide, the ultimate cause is clinical depression.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's why you have to keep doing it, in stead of suddenly stop. You can't expect a sane person to believe, without questions, the stories of some nomads from 3000 years ago. Especially if that person knows that similar cultures like that of those nomads do not treat history in the literal way that the culture of that person does now. So you have to keep showing yourself and keep presenting evidence of your presence.

Even during the Millennial Reign, when He is here in Person for 1000 years non-stop, it's not going to work.

(See Revelation 20:7-9.)

 

[NASAg03]

We exist due to abiogenesis and evolution...You might not like that explanation, but it's logical, conforms to all known relative evidence and doesn't require the belief in that for which there is no evidence.

i'm not debating abiogenesis or evolution. maybe God used those techniques to form the world. my basic question is why the universe exists and us within it, not how.

the existance of the universe, the energy within it, the forces and laws, and the matter all beg the question of where it came from. again, not how (which could be explained by the big bang, explosions / implosions, etc), but why.

i dont understand how an intelligent person can believe that an entire universe can come from nothing, and then go on to say that there is no greater force that caused our universe to come into being.

that they can just stop with "it exists, and that's good enough".

you love asking questions, and seeking answers, why do you stop with "it exists" and not continue past that. maybe you are, there are others who have replied on this thread that indicate the basic existance of the universe need not require something greater.

I don't look to an ancient book filled with cultural tales, demonstrably incorrect assertions and superstitions to find a reason to live. I have my own reasons.

please elaborate on your reason for living. i would have included your point about lance armstrong, and my comments (or lack there of) on that, but i have hit the 15000 character limit and i have to cut some stuff out.

I have no problem with "I don't know". I don't know how the universe can into being. I don't know if this is the only universe or if Earth is the only planet with life, though I find it highly doubtful that other planets don't have life. I don't know the details of how photosynthesis works. I don't know how people can live with a cat or dog and still assume that it can't reason and doesn't have just as much reason to live as do they. There are a lot of things I don't know. And when I don't know, I go in search of reasonable answers. When secular research doesn't know, I must satisfy myself with not knowing, at least until reasonable, logical answers are found. But I'm not satisfied with fake answers. Answers that don't make sense, that make extraordinary claims without the slightest bit of credible evidence don't satisfy me.

you aren't going to be able to find all the answers, and completely erase all doubt. there will be times where you have doubts, and the voids of doubt in your life will be filled in with something. you are never going to get rid of that doubt.

there are three choices: dont believe in God, believe in God, and make no decision.

any of the choices involved doubts, and that doubt is either absolved by faith or apathy.

Actually, that's vastly different. Do you doubt that I exist? I have little doubt that you exist and I'm the skeptic, right? We can demonstrate to each other that we exist. Meanwhile, this "omnipotent" sky-man can't show me that he exists. He can't show science that he exists. He can't even show a statistically significant effectiveness for the proclaimed power of prayer. In fact, I just found another article on some of the latest attempts to demonstrate the power of prayer in the June 2006 issue of Scientific American. Eighteen hundred patients were involved. Those receiving intercessory prayer showed no difference in survival or complication rates from those which did not have a contingent of about 70 subject offering prayer in their behalf. What the study could offer was that a subgroup who was prayed for and were aware of the prayer experienced a higher rate of post-surgical heart arrhythmias, (59 verses 52 percent). There have been many such studies and only a very few have offered any results which might indicate any effectiveness in prayer. And in every such study, it was later found that the results were due to flawed or fraudulent methodology. Some say that God won't be tested. But if God is to provide benevolent response to prayer, there is simply no way to fake the numbers.

yep, i read that article in yahoo news health section. again, i dont know what that means. another something i'll have to say "i dont know" about.

Before anything can properly be referred to as "evidence" there must first be a link demonstrated between the potential evidence and that for which it is claimed to serve as evidence. God is no more linked to the existence of the universe than is Allah, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spaghetti Monster on the nail on the end of my big toe. I can tell you there is a purple, metaphysical rattlesnake perched on your left shoulder and that if you don't believe it is there, it will strike and send spiritual venom into your veins. I can proclaim that your use of disparaging terminology is evidence of that venom already beginning to pump through your circulatory system. But that's not really evidence of a snake anymore than the universe is of your proclaimed God. Perhaps you simply don't understand what the term "evidence" means.

you're right, nothing is linked to the existance of the universe. we currently have a universe filled with lots of laws, energy, and matter. before it, we had nothing. or maybe there is a law guiding how universes start and function.

so, again you have to answer where all that came from. where the rules and the existance of our universe came from. since we haven't figured that out in the past 50 years, i dont see this happening in a long while, especially considering the few number of stephen hawkings out there. chances our, they aren't going to figure all this out in our lifetime.

until that happens, you are going to believe something. maybe you will say you wont believe in anything, because it doesn't matter.

then why search? because it does matter, and you are searching to answer the question you have on whether there is something greater than this universe out there. be honest, that is the underlying question.

you say it's arrogant for me to think humans are the most intelligent life form on this planet, and that we are superior or more complex than other animals.

how is it no more arrogant to think that there is nothing greater than our material universe?

I did believe in God. I believed for the first 33-years of my life. I turned to God when things seemed desperate, when I just felt I needed someone to talk to, when I would go for walks and was amazed at the sights and sounds around me or just when I was sitting around thinking. When I prayed for assistance I noticed that sometimes what I had hoped and asked for occurred and sometimes it didn't. I listened when people told me that sometimes God simply says, "no". I believed in this benevolent God and attributed the universe, the Earth and my very existence to his loving creation.

Eventually I found myself facing the worst catastrophe of my life. I turned to God and asked for help, not for myself, but for the others that would be harmed if help wasn't provided. My situation got worse. The situations of the other people involved got worse. I turned to God again. I prayed, I asked that even if I could not have what I needed, that others be spared what was unfolding as the situation progressed. For months I asked that others be granted assistance and the situation continued to worsen and worsen. My life will never be what it once was nor will the lives of several others involved. But in the tragedy of losing everything that mattered to me, I came out a bit wiser. I realized that the biblical world that had been sold to me had no reflection in the world in which I live. I found that proclaimed miracles always seem to lack the very documentation and evidences that would make them otherwise believable. I realized there is no God and that sitting in hope and looking to invisible, unevidenced entities will never bring about change. Sometimes things simply happen because a chain of events has set a course and that course will be pursued. You might not like such a depiction of the world, but it makes sense. I don't have to be satisfied with a God who works in "mysterious ways" which are decidedly contrary to his proclaimed character. I don't have to assume that the worst events in my life are some disguised blessing. I don't have to wonder why God lets defenseless animals and children die horrific deaths. There is no God to blame and no God to turn to because there is simply no God. And 13-years later, with that very difficult realization, the world finally makes sense.

thank you for your honestly and for sharing with us. i appreciate the insight into who you are, and teh events in your life that have shaped your beliefs and views.

i have been doubting God for the past 7 years of my life. it started my freshman year of college when i doubted the existance and all the "stories" about Him. i didn't understand how that could have really happened. i started thinking maybe all the people and disciples made that up for fame or something else. maybe they were crazy.

so i thought to myself "how can i seek after a God i dont believe in? how can i follow a man i dont believe in?" i was almost ready to give up and be through with the bible. but, i couldn't shake off the implications, and what my decisions in this life have after i die. i couldn't rationalize my way out of that.

so, i decided that to make a sound decision, i need to read the bible. so i started reading. and what caught my eye was how true the bible spoke of humanity, and how humans reacted and the reality they lived in.

one bible verse did it for me, where jesus healed a man's son, and even after that, the man said "lord i believe, help me with my unbelief". that spoke to me, because deep down i wanted to believe in more, but my scientific, engineering, logical brain couldn't accept it.

i read more, and so much of the bible speaks of the heart, and love. i started to realize that is the meaning in life, to love and to show love, and that we derrive our love from God.

i can't explain it. but when i stopped viewing God as a decision i was trying to make, and instead as a person i was trying to have a relationship with, then it all started making sense, and my life began to have so much more meaning. the changes that took place are real, because i've observed them and those around me have observed those changes.

when i seek after God, and seek to know Him and have a relationship with Him, and He begins to work on me and my heart, and shows me how to love, i see real results. God becomes more real to me than anything else, and more convincing than any theory peices of evidence.

it is a shame that you have gone through so many hard times and had such bad fortune. considering your age and the things you have descibed, you have lived a lot longer and been through much more than me.

but i thank God that He has given me free will and a free choice to choose between Him and myself. he has given that choice to everyone, which results in bad things happening to good and bad people. and no, we dont have all the answers.

God never said it would be easy, or that we would have all the answers. just take a look at Job.

I'm sorry you appear to be so alone in this thread NASAg03. I'm sorry you don't have some fellow Christians offering some support for you, if for no other reason than simple moral support. I hate to be one among a number, against a single voice because I often find that situation to be reversed and it's never a secure place to be. But maybe you should spend a bit of time thinking about that. What is it you're attempting to do here? Aren't you simply doing what you believe your God wants you to do? Aren't you doing what your fellow Christians are supposed to be doing? Aren't we on a board dedicated primarily to the promotion of Christian beliefs and ideas? Why is it that in such a forum, you find yourself speaking alone against many whom you might assume needed your help in finding your God? Perhaps you'll see what I see in this. Is God influencing people to assist you? Is he providing you with wisdom and evidence to turn the non-believer into a skeptical inquirer? Or are you left in the cold against science, evidence and reason? Perhaps what you're seeing is the reality of the world. There is no God, no evidence of God and no reason to life aside from life itself.

haha, i noticed the same thing. it's not easy, especially when the very doubts that i have about God are brought to the surface on the screen, right in front of my eyes.

but it would be no different than not believing in God, going to a Christian board, debating against God and having doubts put into my head that maybe God does exist, and maybe i need to try again in knowing God.

i'm not pushing anyone to believe that God exists. believing God exists wont bring you into a relationship with Him, just like believing a car exists isn't the same thing as driving it, or believe and knowing our presidents exists and believing in him and having a relationship with him.

i'm on this subforum with the hope that i can get people to think about more than just "living for the sake of living", but to seek a relationship with something greater that "just exists".

either i believe in a universe, and a humanit that "just exists", or i take it one step further. i have taken it one step further, and the changes in my life, and the purpose i have only serve to strengthen my belief in God, not just in his existance, but in the reason for my existance.

Perhaps you would do well to find that life is reason enough because life gives us the opportunity to promote life and through that, gives us reason, purpose and all of the things you seem to feel can only be obtained through fables, fallacious claims, proclamations of anger, vengeance, war, wickedness and superstitions.

i have no idea what are saying here. did you read this and actually understand it, and dare i say even believe it?

"living life gives us the opprotunity to promote life and gives us reason and purpose"? that is purely subjective, and seems to indicate that life is about fulfilling whatever i deem to fulfill my life. that is exactly what leads to dictatorship, slavery, war, and wickedness.

i'm not sure what past wrongs of Christianity you think i believe in, but dont transpose past wrongs and associated beliefs from those who called themselves Christians onto me as proof of God's non-existance. the God i seek is a perfect, holy, just God of grace and love.

 

[JohnR7]

Evolution is science. Creationism is mythology/theology.

Actually, Evolution is fiction at it's best. There is far more "mythology" in evolution then you will ever find in creationism.
Everytime you project something out like that, you tell on yourself.

 

[JohnR7]

John, how many times do you need to be told this: if you're going to make a claim, please link to some evidence.

Right now, we are dealing with the different frauds and hoaxes that evolutionists have promoted trying to convince others of their theory. We have talked about that far to many times on here and there are far to many creationist sites that deal with the frauds to have to go into it in any detail here. Also, there are a lot of anti evolution books out on the market. Plenty more than most anyone could ever read, showing how weak evolutionary theory is and how it just does not deliver on what evos claim they can deliver on. If it is a question of fame or shame, it looks like Evos have more shame to deal with when having to confront all the frauds and the deceptions.

 

[NASAg03]

we exit because at some point the conditions were right for life to come into existence and stay that way. No further reasons necessary. Basic, and simple.

and this is different than "because of God" how???

I say God exists because, no further reasons, and people call me a blind, ignorant Christian.

you say humans exists, because, no further reasons necessary, and suddenly you are enlightened and a great philospher.

we need not exist, yet we do. and you say God need not exist, and therefore he doesn't.

i think the fact that we need not exist, but do is proof that God does exist.

if humans are simply animals and capable of living without a belief in God, then why do we continue to believe in God, and aparently have this great desire to seek meaning in life???

And it's not just a few that do this, but a large majority of people, from different ends of the world. Why do we have questions and seek answers in life? We need not do this to survive.

Other animals dont ask questions, they just eat, sleep, play, and that's about it.

Which is exactly the same for theists and atheists alike. If we do alright and the people around us do alright, we are happy. If not, we're worried or sad. Where theists can draw strength from some comfort in God, this strength is at the same time underminded by doubt, since they have to ask themselves why an omnicient, omnipotent God would allow such a thing. In the end, the theist can't find the answers in this either, other then comforting himself with the idea that it is probably for the better.

God "allows it" because of free will, and God doesn't control every aspect of our lives, even when we ask Him to control it for the better.

But even if the theist would be so much happier, of which my experience is that they are not, this would be no reason for the atheist to believe. You're not going to be happier if you turn to some imaginary sky daddy if you don't believe one exist, and it sure ain't gonna solve your problems.

Odd. I've known a number of people who's lives have completely changed for the better after they begin seeking a relationship with God. notice i didn't say "believe in God", but rather seek after God. there is a difference.

just because you believe God exists, and every now and them pray to Him when times are tough, doesn't mean you have a relationship with Him and desire to know Him. maybe that's why these so-called Christians you know of are no happier than unbelievers.

if you dont understand what i'm saying, consider this analogy. you can know a person, talk to them every now and then, but not be in a relationship with them.

it's about the heart, not the mind.

So what? Why is that so bad? Why is imagining some omnipotent, all-knowing macho man in the sky a better answer?

you are either believing in nothing other than our own existance, or God. you run one direction or the other. you have doubts with both decisions. with that in mind, i took a step towards knowing God.

seeking Him has made Him very real to me. i still have doubts, just like with any relationship.

I'd say the thinking is different. We don't conjure up beings just because we want them to exist.

Yes, this thinking is different, and it's different than the bulk of human civilization thinking and desire. since the beginning of man, we have desired something more than us, and something after our death. different cultures believe in different gods, enlightenment, and nirvana, despite of the evidence, rational, and reasoning. if we did just evolve, why do we have this uniform desire across the board of humanity to believe in more than our own existance.

i think that peice of data tells us something. if humans were going along, "just living life" and enjoying it, same as animals, where and why did we get this desire to believe in something more beyond us, and why did this theory gain popularity with so many other humans?

i dont expect an answer, since i'm posing this more as a rehtorical question and something to ponder.

I'll be happy to acknowlegde it, but then I'll need some evidence.

i'd be happy to believe americans landed on the moon when technology was so new, untested, and undeveloped, but the only evidence we have is biased towards america, from americans, and possibly faked and / or filmed at Area 51...


True. But if there's no evidence of a God, there definitely is no reason for me to believe in one.[/quote]

 

[Electric Skeptic]

AV1611VET, can you demonstrate that Jesus did not believe in evolution? Bear in mind that until/unless you can, your question is precisely as valid, and precisely as entitled to an answer, as a question such as "Jesus didn't like black people - why should we?"

Mark 13:19:
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Sorry, but the above verse says nothing whatsoever about whether or not Jesus believed in evolution. All it says is that he recognised that there was a creation by God. It says nothing at all about how God created - whether it was via evolution, magical fiat or some other method.

Once again, can you demonstrate that Jesus did not believe in evolution?

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Just what is it that you think He should be doing? Do you think you could do a better job of running this world if you were God?

Anybody could do a better job of running this world than God does, if they were he.