Creationism - Lazy Man's science?

[Tomk80]

You need to do some gardening so that you can see it is not so basic and simple. It takes more than just throwing your seeds out there and hoping that the conditions are right for them to grow.

If the conditions aren't right for the things I want to plant, they will be right for something else to grow. Something will start growing if the conditions are right, whether it's what I want or not. Ever did some gardening yourself John? Noticed how, if you don't pay attention, weeds are going to grow everywhere? The conditions may not be right for my roses, but many other plants will love to take advantage.

 

[OdwinOddball]

That makes about as much sense as if you were to say I think I am married because someone told me I was. I have a personal relationship with God. He guides me in the way I am to go. He helps me with my problems, he answers my questions. He comforts me in my time of need. In fact, He is a companion of sorts. Just because you do not have a personal relationship with God, does not mean that others do not have that relationship with Him.

You believe he does now, but at some point in your life you did not. This may have been as far back as early childhood, but at one point someone had to tell you about the Christian God. Then at some point you began to believe in him.

Belief can be a very powerfull force. Believe you are happy, and you will be. Believe you will succede and you will. Believe you will recover from a serious illness and the odds go up that you will make it.

The mind is a very powerfull machine. It determines what we consider real and what we consider fake. It defines our entire existence. All of our sensorary perceptions get processed in our mind and translated into the world we experience around us. But throw enough belief in, and you can believe anything, including entire conversations with your god.

This is why we cannot accept personal testimony and experience as valid evidence for a god. If the experience is entirely within someones head, there is no way for someone else to determine wether it actually happened, or if the person just imagined it.


You believe you speak with god, I believe you speak with yourself and believe it is god. Everyones god is a reflection of their own desires and beliefs. Everyones idea of god is slightly different than everyone elses. Ask a thousand Christians to describe how they see and interact with god, and you will get athousand different answers, and each one will reflect the person describing it.

 

[JohnR7]

Ever did some gardening yourself John?

We use to do a lot of gardening for about 5 years. I had so many morning glories going at one time there must have been two or three thousand of them. I had to build a really strong structure for them to grow on so the wind would not knock them down.

 

[Beastt]

You need to do some gardening so that you can see it is not so basic and simple. It takes more than just throwing your seeds out there and hoping that the conditions are right for them to grow.

Do any weeding lately?

 

[JohnR7]

You believe he does now, but at some point in your life you did not. This may have been as far back as early childhood, but at one point someone had to tell you about the Christian God. Then at some point you began to believe in him.

No one told me anything about christianity. The only people that told me anything were people like you telling me nonsense and I suffered a lot because of it. I had lived half of my life before I began to learn anything at all about the Bible and being a christian. I still do not trust people to tell me anything about it. I just read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand it.

The only thing anyone told me was to read the Bible and give it a try. They said that I could find the solution to my problems in the Bible. I had nothing to lose, so I decided to give it a try. But at first I could not understand the Bible. I told someone that and they said to pray and ask the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand the Bible. I tried it and sure enough it worked. God began to do a work in my life so that when I read the Bible I could understand it. I kept reading it and reading it. I know I have read it at least 5 times, because I underline when I read. Perhaps I have read it as many as 7 times.

 

[Beastt]

That makes about as much sense as if you were to say I think I am married because someone told me I was. I have a personal relationship with God. He guides me in the way I am to go. He helps me with my problems, he answers my questions. He comforts me in my time of need. In fact, He is a companion of sorts. Just because you do not have a personal relationship with God, does not mean that others do not have that relationship with Him.

Your wife is real, (I assume). You can touch her, talk to her and listen when she responds. She occupies space in your car, in a chair and in the bed. She breathes air, utilizes oxygen and exhales a greater percentage of carbon dioxide than she inhaled. She eats food, displays emotion, spends money, needs your love and care and becomes annoyed when things don't go her way. She is a part of demonstrable reality.

Sometimes young children create imaginary friends. They talk to them, play with them, eat lunch with them and sometimes even sleep with them. But we all know these imaginary friends aren't real.

Your God displays all the traits of a child's imaginary friend and none of the traits of your wife. The two are simply not the same. You might have a relationship, but as the child with the imaginary friend demonstrates, relationships can be carried on in the mind, while only one of the participants actually exists.

 

[JohnR7]

Do any weeding lately?

Not so much now. I let my wife take care of it. Where we were at before was a very busy section of town and a lot of people went by every day to see our flowers. We were between a church and a fire department. Where we are at now, there are not so many people to see our flowers as there was before.

 

[OdwinOddball]

No one told me anything about christianity. The only people that told me anything were people like you telling me nonsense and I suffered a lot because of it. I had lived half of my life before I began to learn anything at all about the Bible and being a christian. I still do not trust people to tell me anything about it. I just read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand it.

Except then you say:

The only thing anyone told me was to read the Bible and give it a try. They said that I could find the solution to my problems in the Bible. I had nothing to lose, so I decided to give it a try. But at first I could not understand the Bible. I told someone that and they said to pray and ask the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand the Bible. I tried it and sure enough it worked. God began to do a work in my life so that when I read the Bible I could understand it. I kept reading it and reading it. I know I have read it at least 5 times, because I underline when I read. Perhaps I have read it as many as 7 times.

So obviously someone told you Christainity existed, and that you should read the Bible.

Thats really all it takes, especially if you are in need of comfort, are struggling in life, or are otherwise open to possible hope. This is of course a very common theme in conversions to Christianity. And oft times creates the most devout believers.

Its also a common tactic in interogations and brainwashing. Tear someone down. Get them to a place where they see absolutely no hope, and feel utterly alone and down-trodden, and then throw them a life line. It doesn't much matter wether the life line is real or not, get some one desperate enough and they will grasp at anything. Then once you fill their mind with your version of reality, and provide them hope for an end to their suffering in the process, you have made a strong believer. Such techniques can convince people to do whatever their converter tells them to do, even killing someone, or themselves. Examine the Heavens Gate cult, Jim Jones, or even the Branch Davidions for recent examples of the power of hope to a desperate person.

 

[steen]

All of your quotes, speculations, calculations, theories, and analysis do a great job of answering one thing: how.

they do NOTHING to answer the question of why.

Ah, very good. That's the point I have tried to make to creationists for decades now. Would it be OK if I quote you?

 

[Beastt]

No one told me anything about christianity. The only people that told me anything were people like you telling me nonsense and I suffered a lot because of it. I had lived half of my life before I began to learn anything at all about the Bible and being a christian. I still do not trust people to tell me anything about it. I just read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand it.

And yet you constantly display a marked lack of understanding about the very world around you.

The only thing anyone told me was to read the Bible and give it a try. They said that I could find the solution to my problems in the Bible. I had nothing to lose,

I would offer that you have lost plenty. The ability to apply reason and through that reason, defeat emotional desires, as but one example.

...so I decided to give it a try. But at first I could not understand the Bible. I told someone that and they said to pray and ask the Holy Spirit of God to help me to understand the Bible. I tried it and sure enough it worked. God began to do a work in my life so that when I read the Bible I could understand it.

You believe God did this. There is no demonstrable evidence to support such a claim. Many, dare I say "most" Christians, would say you have a very distinct lack of understanding of the Bible. So either you do, or they do. Who is God helping and who is he ignoring?

I kept reading it and reading it. I know I have read it at least 5 times, because I underline when I read. Perhaps I have read it as many as 7 times.

Perhaps it's time to put it aside for a moment and pick up some other reading material. Obviously you have access to the web. Why not try looking to the secular side and see if you don't find answers complete with supporting evidence. Give it a fair and equal opportunity. Then go back to your Bible and compare the unsupported claims of the Bible with the evidenced, documented and supported claims of the secular world. Then make a choice. You might still make the same choice but at least you'll be working from a more balanced position.

 

[Beastt]

Not so much now. I let my wife take care of it. Where we were at before was a very busy section of town and a lot of people went by every day to see our flowers. We were between a church and a fire department. Where we are at now, there are not so many people to see our flowers as there was before.

The flowers are gorgeous and I thank you for helping to provide for their needs. But I'm afraid you've completely dismissed my point. Obviously, the weeds grow with little assistance. They'll even grow when you're trying to make things more difficult for them. You can venture into the most remote sections of wilderness lands, where no one is hauling in fertilizer, preparing the ground or providing water. Yet all around you will find plants and other forms of life.

 

[JohnR7]

Belief can be a very powerfull force. Believe you are happy, and you will be. Believe you will succede and you will. Believe you will recover from a serious illness and the odds go up that you will make it.

You are getting very close to presenting a metaphysical arguement. Something we have never talked about on this forum. The thing is though, if as you say human faith can be very powerful, then how much more is God powerful in comparison to man. How much more can God accomplish, compared to what man can accomplish.

I watched them build a bridge once and I was amazed at how fast it went. The foundation was slow, about what you would expect. They spent a lot of time in a hole in the ground. But once they had the foundation the bridge went up pretty quick. If man can accomplish great things like building huge structures in very short periods of time. How much more can God do?

You believe you speak with god, I believe you speak with yourself and believe it is god. Everyones god is a reflection of their own desires and beliefs. Everyones idea of god is slightly different than everyone elses. Ask a thousand Christians to describe how they see and interact with god, and you will get athousand different answers, and each one will reflect the person describing it.

We do not create God, God created us. I do not invent God, I seek and search to know God and He helps me to understand. When I seek to know God, then I begin to understand things I just did not understand before.

It is very clear that God does not do things my way according to my plan. I have tired to make deals with Him and He is not interesed. He wants me to learn how to do things His way.

You can not teach people. The best you can do is to get them to memorize a lot of so called facts. People have to discover the truth for themselves and we can only help them along the way.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi, Skeptic

AV1611VET, can you demonstrate that Jesus did not believe in evolution? Bear in mind that until/unless you can, your question is precisely as valid, and precisely as entitled to an answer, as a question such as "Jesus didn't like black people - why should we?"

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

 

[OdwinOddball]

You are getting very close to presenting a metaphysical arguement. Something we have never talked about on this forum. The thing is though, if as you say human faith can be very powerful, then how much more is God powerful in comparison to man. How much more can God accomplish, compared to what man can accomplish.

I watched them build a bridge once and I was amazed at how fast it went. The foundation was slow, about what you would expect. They spent a lot of time in a hole in the ground. But once they had the foundation the bridge went up pretty quick. If man can accomplish great things like building huge structures in very short periods of time. How much more can God do?

Yet he remains strangely absent from human affairs. instead only appearing in the mind of believers, and never actually accomplishing anything on his own in the material realm. Nor does he ever appear to someone who ahs not heard of god. At the best someone will on their own with no exposure to any religion, come up with the idea of a diety, but this diety will not match any known deity untill they are told about these other dieties. We would expect to see such spontaeneous conversions if God actually existed, yet we do not. No one spontaeneously becomes Christian without first being exposed to Christianity.

We do not create God, God created us. I do not invent God, I seek and search to know God and He helps me to understand. When I seek to know God, then I begin to understand things I just did not understand before.

But thats exactly my point. if god only exists inside the mind of belivers, and never interacts with the physical world, then how can you definatively say he created you and not the other way around? When you examine the history of humanity, and the history of how the worlds relgions developed, every single one is reflective of the society that first postulated the religion. Judaism is a direct reflection of the beliefs and attitudes of the Hebrew people, and Christianity is a direct relfection of the unhappiness of the Jews during the time of the Roman Empire, and the desire for someone to lead them out of their oppression. Religion reflects reality, not the other way around. We created god, god did not create us.

It is very clear that God does not do things my way according to my plan. I have tired to make deals with Him and He is not interesed. He wants me to learn how to do things His way.

Even a child will occasionally argue with his imaginary friend. And adults do this as well, discussing things in their heads with themselves, in order to reach a decision. Once the split has occured, once you imagine a second entity in your mind, that entity will take on its own life, and behave according to the rules you established for it, even if this is done subconciously.

You can not teach people. The best you can do is to get them to memorize a lot of so called facts. People have to discover the truth for themselves and we can only help them along the way.

This much at least we can mostly agree on. People have to make up their own minds. The best you can do is provide the evidence for them to examine and draw their own conclusions.

 

[Beastt]

You are getting very close to presenting a metaphysical arguement. Something we have never talked about on this forum. The thing is though, if as you say human faith can be very powerful, then how much more is God powerful in comparison to man. How much more can God accomplish, compared to what man can accomplish.

God can do no more than can the IPU or the FSM. They don't exist and as non-existent entities, can do nothing. That's why we see man doing so much and God doing nothing.

I watched them build a bridge once and I was amazed at how fast it went. The foundation was slow, about what you would expect. They spent a lot of time in a hole in the ground. But once they had the foundation the bridge went up pretty quick. If man can accomplish great things like building huge structures in very short periods of time. How much more can God do?

You might think if God could do so much more than man, you'd see him do something. Instead we see people attribute the work of men to God. Else they might have to recognize that God doesn't do anything.

We do not create God, God created us. I do not invent God, I seek and search to know God and He helps me to understand.

We live on a planet which is 4.6 billion years old and yet we have existed as humans for only a few hundred thousand years. This planet sits within a universe which is at least 13.7 billion years old. Yet we're told that God desires our belief. How did he get along for over 13 billion years without us to believe in him, worship him and offer him the "glory" for which we're assured he lusts?

What did God do for 13 billion years when we're now told that he is so intently focused on his human creation? What did he do before he created the universe? It doesn't make any sense, John. Man certainly did create God just as he created Allah and all of the other gods proclaimed through the human writing of books. That's how nearly every god is created; both the ones you don't believe in and the one you do believe in.

When I seek to know God, then I begin to understand things I just did not understand before.

Yet you don't understand biology, cosmology, geology or even how a radio-equipped "atomic clock" works. If you don't mind my saying so, God is doing a very poor job. Perhaps that's because God isn't really doing anything at all. You've just convinced yourself that everytime you make something in the Bible fit into your perception of reality,
it's actually God teaching you.

It is very clear that God does not do things my way according to my plan. I have tired to make deals with Him and He is not interesed. He wants me to learn how to do things His way.

It's very clear that God doesn't do things. If he did, the evidence would bear that out. The evidence shows us nothing attributable to God.

You can not teach people. The best you can do is to get them to memorize a lot of so called facts.

Something like the so-called "words of God" we see continually regurgitated here?

People have to discover the truth for themselves and we can only help them along the way.

Precisely. That's all I'm doing here. I'm hoping to show people what does and doesn't fit within reality. Reality is the only real "truth" we have.

 

[JohnR7]

So obviously someone told you Christainity existed, and that you should read the Bible.

That took them all of five min to do. What happened for the first 26 years of my life when no one told me anything at all?

 

[JohnR7]

You can venture into the most remote sections of wilderness lands,

Yes, there are plants that are native or wild. There are also plants that have been cultivated. What point are you trying to make?

 

[OdwinOddball]

That took them all of five min to do. What happened for the first 26 years of my life when no one told me anything at all?

Well according to what you've said you weren't Christian during that time period. That was pretty much the point.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's very clear that God doesn't do things. If he did, the evidence would bear that out. The evidence shows us nothing attributable to God.

Beastt,

We have a little-known doctrine called ontological subordination. What this simply means is: one Person of the Godhead is active while the other two usually are passive.

In Old Testament times, the First Person of the Godhead was very active on the Earth, while the Second and Third were passive.

In the beginning of the New Testament, the Second Person of the Godhead took center stage, with the First and Third passive.

On the day of Pentecost and forward, the Third Person took center stage --- and currently has it --- until the Rapture --- when again the Second Person will take it for 1000 years, then, finally, turn it over to the First Person for all of eternity.

I said all this to say this: the Holy Ghost isn't currently in the habit of leaving evidence behind (I'm not charismatic or Pentecostal). God the Father and God the Son have the evidence.

That's why we look for evidence, but it's only spiritually discerned.

 

[JohnR7]

Well according to what you've said you weren't Christian during that time period. That was pretty much the point.

Well, you can take that 26 years and stuff it in a garbage can as far as I am concerned. My life was not worth much of anything until I became a christian. In that first 26 years the only thing of any value was what God was doing in my life trying to draw me onto Himself. Just like God is doing a work in your life now, trying to help you to become the person that He always intended for you to be.