Creation without a Creator?

[Absolute_Truth]

A painting without a painter?  A building without a builder?  and finally a Creation without a Creator?

Now, as I read this board, I constantly see, "Is it scientifically proven?"  or something along the lines of that.  Well, I would love to see some scientific evidence where nothing has created anything before.  In fact, I believe science proves the opposite.  To me it seems to be common sense, a creation needs a Creator, whether the Christian God, the Islam god, or aliens from outer-space.  Never in any scientific experiment has life ever been created(I realize we can create amino acids, with primordial soup, but that theory has been recently discredited, any ways, off topic), and nothing has ever created something.

Atheists, chuck common intellect at the door to avert from being held responsible to a God.  The sad thing is no matter how much you force yourself to believe something inconceivable, the ultimate reality is that all will face judgement and have to give an account for how they acted on earth.

I ask that all atheists would seek God with all their heart and Mind, you will find Him when you do so.  The Bible tells us so, Jeremiah 29:13.

Let's be reasonable, in order to know for sure that God does not exist, you would have to know everything!  No one claims to even know 1 percent of everything!  So is there a chance, that in that 99.9% that we don't know, there is the possibility of a god?  Of course, and to say there isn't would be unreasonable.  On the other hand, do you need to know everything to know something does exist?  No, of course not.  Using Iraq as an example, if we see weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, do we need to know everything to decide that they are in possession of them?  No, once again, of course not, the answer is obvious!  But in order to say there is no WMD in Iraq, we would have to search the whole country top to bottom, every house, every cave, every van.

So, I believe it is much more reasonable to believe in a God, than not in one, because the latter requires that you know everything.

I would like to know your thoughts on this, especially atheists.

 

[Arikay]

Using that logic, a creator needs a creator.

so what or who created the creator?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 11:47 PM Arikay said this in Post #2

Using that logic, a creator needs a creator.

so what or who created the creator?

And this is where the special pleading comes in regarding the nature of the creator (i.e. they always existed). At that point, though, the whole argument becomes moot.

 

[Absolute_Truth]

Good questoin Arikay.
I think I have the answer.
Since God created time Himself, He is not bound to the same laws that we are.
Some things we won't know until we meet with Him.
Question answered?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 11:51 PM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #4

Good questoin Arikay.
I think I have the answer.
Since God created time Himself, He is not bound to the same laws that we are.
Some things we won't know until we meet with Him.
Question answered?

You can apply the exact same argument to the universe itself (i.e. the known laws of the natural universe did not exist prior to its existance; therefore, the rules of causality may not even apply).

Like I said, at that point the argument becomes moot.

 

[Arikay]

Exactly.

If god doesnt need a creator, then why does the universe?

 

[Absolute_Truth]

I don't believe so, Pete.

Here is why.

The universe did not create time, becuase where did the universe come from?  The only way what I said can work is if there is an Intelligent Designer outside of time who created it, and who's state of eternity we can only imagine.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Placing your deity over the gaps in our knowledge is unwise. It didn't work for the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and virtually every other recorded religion that did the same thing. Just because we don't know doesn't mean a deity did it. It's better to take the honest route and say "I don't know" than to claim to know the truth for which you have zero evidence.

And no, the question from Arikay is not answered. You arbitrarily define your deity in a nonsensical way to avoid the reasonable question asked.

I also find this: "I believe teaching evolution is, because it hasnt been proven, and if it hasnt been proven how come we say it happend?" amusing considering FoC's recent post claiming that your god has no qualms about lying to and deceiving "unbelievers" thereby further dissuading them from what you claim to be the truth....but that's unrelated and I'm not interested in discussing it further.

And finally, you wrote: "Now, as I read this board, I constantly see, "Is it scientifically proven?"" No, you don't see this because there is essentially no such thing as something proven in the realm of science. Interesting experiments are going on regarding abiogenesis, but, as I said, it is unwise to claim otherwise. What about unicorns, also? Do you accept unicorns as a valid possibility on Earth simply because you don't know everything? No. There is zero evidence for their existence just like your deity, so atheists, just as those who have a disbelief of unicorns, have a disbelief in your deity due to a lack of evidence or rationality to that deity's existence.

 

[Arikay]

But again, why couldnt a natural proccess outside of time have created the universe?

You could also think of it this way. If the big bang singularity that created spacetime, had spacetime in it. Then time could have been infinite. In an infinite amount of time, all is possible, so at one point or another, the big bang would happen and create the universe.

another idea is that there are multiple universes, and that the big bang only created Our spacetime.

Today at 08:59 PM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #7

I don't believe so, Pete.

Here is why.

The universe did not create time, becuase where did the universe come from?  The only way what I said can work is if there is an Intelligent Designer outside of time who created it, and who's state of eternity we can only imagine.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Yesterday at 11:59 PM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #7

I don't believe so, Pete.

Here is why.

The universe did not create time, becuase where did the universe come from?  The only way what I said can work is if there is an Intelligent Designer outside of time who created it, and who's state of eternity we can only imagine.

Space and time are linked. Hence, the beginning of the universe was the beginning of space-time itself.

Nobody knows what existed before the universe. If you want to imagine a creator being there, that's your call. But I'm comfortable not knowing what (if anything) was there.

 

[Absolute_Truth]

In response to Mechanical Bliss

How is a finite mind supposed to understand the will and works of an infinite God?  It is illogical to think that we can, and if God did create the universe, it is obvious that we can't know everything about it, just like we cannot fully understand eternity.

There is enough evidence, to say "I know".  Just take a look at history, the person of Jesus, his miracles, the Bible's reliability, and the impact Christianity has had on the world, more than any other religion.

I do not understand what you mean in the second break about defining God in a nonsensical way.

God has allowed free-will, and has given us all a choice to accept His Son for our sins.  The Bible says when you search for Him with all your heart you will find Him.  It also says that all men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself through His creation, Creation without a Creator? Nonsense, I am still looking for an example of that ever happening.

You can't say no, I dont see this, because I do see it

And no I don't believe in unicorns, becuase is no evidence for their existence that I am aware of compared to the overwhelming existence for a God, and saying there is zero evidence for a God is also unwise.

Good points though, I wish we could speak in person with real dialouge, but allwell.

God Bless

 

[Absolute_Truth]

Right, Pete, but again, when has nothing come from something?

Is it not more reasonable to have faith in common logic than, something as absurd as creation from nothing?

 

[Arikay]

Um, there is zero evidence for god.

why is saying that unwise (and please, dont give me pascals wager. )

A book makes a prediction, then the book answers the prediction. Not really evidence.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 12:18 AM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #12

Right, Pete, but again, when has nothing come from something?

Is it not more reasonable to have faith in common logic than, something as absurd as creation from nothing?

Again, you're assuming that the laws of the universe as we know them today were applicable before the universe even existed.

And also once again, you're having to resort to special pleading regarding the nature of the creator (i.e. they are eternal).

Basically, there's no right or wrong answer to this whole line of reasoning. It's possible the universe was created by an intelligent being of some sort. It's also possible it wasn't. The most honest answer is that nobody knows for sure.

 

[Arikay]

Funny enough, thats one hypothesis is that something did come from nothing.

The basic hypothesis says that all the energy in the universe balances out and equals 0.

Today at 09:18 PM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #12

Right, Pete, but again, when has nothing come from something?

Is it not more reasonable to have faith in common logic than, something as absurd as creation from nothing?

 

[Absolute_Truth]

What is pascals wager?

ev·i·dence

1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: <CITE>The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.</CITE>

How are you going to say there is no things for God that are helpful in forming a conclusion for Him.

Intelligent Design is one.&nbsp; The reliabilty of the Bible another.

That is not Zero, but two of many.

True, but you are mistaken, the Bible is not one book but a collection of books.

Common viewpoints though.

 

[Absolute_Truth]

Where did the energy come from arikay?

 

[Absolute_Truth]

Sure Pete, but what about the life of Jesus, I would like to know your viewpoint on that.
I believe there is evidences for the existence of God, and that there is good reason to believe that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Arikay]

Pascals wager is a wager that says you should believe in god, because if you dont believe in god and are wrong you will go to hell. If you dont believe in god and are right, then nothing bad happens. If you believe in god and you are wrong, then nothing bad happens, but if you believe in god and your right, you go to heaven.

So you should believe in god.

Its a nice slap in the face of god.

Um, Inteligent design isnt evidence. and the bible has been shown to be less reliable than many think.

The energy doesnt come from anywhere. Since there is a total of 0 energy. The universe is just a complex way to say 0 energy.

Today at 09:25 PM Absolute_Truth said this in Post #16

What is pascals wager?

ev·i·dence

1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: <CITE>The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.</CITE>

How are you going to say there is no things for God that are helpful in forming a conclusion for Him.

Intelligent Design is one.&nbsp; The reliabilty of the Bible another.

That is not Zero, but two of many.

True, but you are mistaken, the Bible is not one book but a collection of books.

Common viewpoints though.

 

[Absolute_Truth]

But is it not more reasonable to accept something that can be proven than something that cannot be proven, such as something cannot come from nothing?