Creation Suggests Creation

[Speedwell]

What was the "effect" of my not understanding the Indian woman's speech? Is asking her to write down what she meant 'racist'?

No, it was the effect of your remarks here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, it was the effect of your remarks here.

Many of my remarks are viewed negatively by the same cabal of members regardless of content. But hey, that's part of the fun.

 

[Ophiolite]

I'm very critical of black people generally, because they have failed to take advantage of the opportunities available to them that would lift them up. Is that racist?

Yes.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Racism requires malice.

No it doesn't.

Sorry, but you don't get to redefine racism.

Nor do you:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Your post showed prejudice against the woman based on her ethnicity. It may not have been intentional, but that's what the post shows.

You will try to rationalize by saying it was just her accent that you had problems with, but the fact you identify that accent as "Indian" and feel it necessary to add that irrelevant identifier to the post indicates an underlying prejudice. We all have them. Some of us accept we have them and try to deal with them, others deny them and continue on obliviously.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No it doesn't.

Nor do you:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Your post showed prejudice against the woman based on her ethnicity. It may not have been intentional, but that's what the post shows.

You will try to rationalize by saying it was just her accent that you had problems with, but the fact you identify that accent as "Indian" and feel it necessary to add that irrelevant identifier to the post indicates an underlying prejudice. We all have them. Some of us accept we have them and try to deal with them, others deny them and continue on obliviously.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Racism requires malice.

Not so; malicious racism can generally be seen and addressed, but arguably the most pernicious forms of racism are unconscious cultural biases.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Not so; malicious racism can generally be seen and addressed, but arguably the most pernicious forms of racism are unconscious cultural biases.

So we need someone like Bungle_Bear to appraise us of our racism?

What would be the root of such biases?

 

[Speedwell]

So we need someone like Bungle_Bear to appraise us of our racism?

What would be the root of such biases?

Our primitive tribalist tendencies.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

And you yours.

Happy Christmas!

 

[Bungle_Bear]

So we need someone like Bungle_Bear to appraise us of our racism?

Did I hit a nerve? You certainly seem quite bent out of shape.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Did I hit a nerve? You certainly seem quite bent out of shape.

Naw, I'm good.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

So we need someone like Bungle_Bear to appraise us of our racism?

It seems to me that anyone who can justifiably appraise us of our subconscious biases is doing us a favour. Being aware of them is the first step to dealing with them, should you wish to do so.

What would be the root of such biases?

I think it's generally accepted that it arises out of the 'us and them', in-group vs out-group, modal thinking of tribalism. It seems that, in general, members of groups that are distinguishably different from those we identify with, particularly in appearance, tend to be treated as 'other' and seen as a threat and/or inferior. It's particularly true of cultures where certain groups have traditionally been seen as or treated as inferior. When you grow up picking up subtle behaviours clues from the media and the people around you (i.e. cultural biases), it's hard to recognise them, let alone control their influence on your behaviour.

Studies have shown that even people who say they believe they are not in the least racist often show discriminatory behaviour in practice, and show subconscious threat responses in lab tests, that belie their beliefs.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It seems to me that anyone who can justifiably appraise us of our subconscious biases is doing us a favour. Being aware of them is the first step to dealing with them, should you wish to do so.

But what good does this do in the larger picture?

I think it's generally accepted that it arises out of the 'us and them', in-group vs out-group, modal thinking of tribalism. It seems that, in general, members of groups that are distinguishably different from those we identify with, particularly in appearance, tend to be treated as 'other' and seen as a threat and/or inferior. It's particularly true of cultures where certain groups have traditionally been seen as or treated as inferior. When you grow up picking up subtle behaviours clues from the media and the people around you (i.e. cultural biases), it's hard to recognise them, let alone control their influence on your behaviour.

Studies have shown that even people who say they believe they are not in the least racist often show discriminatory behaviour in practice, and show subconscious threat responses in lab tests, that belie their beliefs.

But what if these biases are justified?

 

[Speedwell]

But what good does this do in the larger picture?



But what if these biases are justified?

They're not. That's the point.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

They're not. That's the point.

I'm guessing we've had different experiences.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Not so; malicious racism can generally be seen and addressed, but arguably the most pernicious forms of racism are unconscious cultural biases.

Isn't that a natural 'evolutionary response'? If so we'll probably have to wait a million years or so for it to change. We can't legislate evolution.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But what good does this do in the larger picture?

The general idea would be to attempt to promote well-being and flourishing, and minimise suffering and disadvantage, for all - by not discriminating on spurious grounds.

But what if these biases are justified?

That depends on how the proposed justification sits with the moral and ethical values of society - admittedly the waters are murky... when slave-owners can preface a declaration of independence with, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.", there's clearly work to be done; but we applaud the sentiment.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Isn't that a natural 'evolutionary response'? If so we'll probably have to wait a million years or so for it to change. We can't legislate evolution.

One of the biggest advantages we have over most other creatures is that we have evolved the ability to respond flexibly in complex ways to both the external environment and our more primitive evolutionary predispositions.

A large part of the development of sophisticated cultures involves using, sublimating, diverting, or suppressing these evolutionary responses for a variety of purposes. Becoming personally aware of, and sublimating, diverting, or suppressing unconscious cultural biases that run counter to our moral and ethical aspirations isn't easy, but it can be done.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The general idea would be to attempt to promote well-being and flourishing, and minimise suffering and disadvantage, for all - by not discriminating on spurious grounds.

My point is that what is holding them back are internal problems, not racism. I calculate 95% internal, 5% racism.

That depends on how the proposed justification sits with the moral and ethical values of society - admittedly the waters are murky... when slave-owners can preface a declaration of independence with, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.", there's clearly work to be done; but we applaud the sentiment.

That the 'water are murky' is a huge concession...thanks!

It is a general consensus, based on actual evidence, that America has done pretty well in that regard.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

One of the biggest advantages we have over most other creatures is that we have evolved the ability to respond flexibly in complex ways to both the external environment and our more primitive evolutionary predispositions.

A large part of the development of sophisticated cultures involves using, sublimating, diverting, or suppressing these evolutionary responses for a variety of purposes. Becoming personally aware of, and sublimating, diverting, or suppressing unconscious cultural biases that run counter to our moral and ethical aspirations isn't easy, but it can be done.

And for the most part this has been done. We're waiting for a positive response from the other side.